Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Thallium poisoning

Thallium poisoning

JohnWW - 21-11-2006 at 18:58

Has anyone here been following the case in the news of poisoning of the former Russian spy, Colonel Alexander Litvenenko, who defected from the KGB and fled to London, England, and gained political asylum, after publicly disagreeing with the Russian president, Comrade Vladimir Putin?

About 11 days ago, he was invited to a sushi restaurant in London by a mysterious contact who claimed to have information on who may have killed a Russian woman journalist who was an outspoken critic of Putin several months ago, which murder Litvenenko was investigating. Papers naming names were shown or passed to him. Several hours later, he was admitted to hospital complaining of stomach pains, and his condition rapidly deteriorated and he was sent into intensive care and isolation from infection, where he is under armed security police guard. MI6 and the police anti-terrorism squad are investigating.

His principal symptoms included all his hair falling out, a pale appearance, and drastically lowered white blood cell count. This, and preliminary tests, led to a diagnosis of thallium poisoning, suggesting that he had been given what should have been a lethal dose of about 1 gram of a soluble thallium salt. However, final tests are yet forthcoming. Further symptoms suggest that he may have been poisoned by something else as well, including a radioisotope, which may have been a radioactive thallium isotope, and that he will need a bone-marrow transplant in order to recover.

While attracting wide news coverage in the west, the case has gone almost totally unreported in the government-controlled major media, except for one or two small independent radio and TV stations. This, and the obvious reason for Litvenenko's poisoning, strongly suggest that the KGB was behind it, although they have denied it as usual.

Does anyone know much about thallium poisoning? It was used in an Agatha Christie novel, "The Pale Horse". The whole case reads like a James Bond novel - I am rather surprised that Ian Fleming did not write one about James Bond investigating the poisoning of a KGB defector.

Thallium is most stable in the Tl(I) oxidation state, which rather resembles Ag(I), while the Tl(III) state is moderately oxidizing. Highly water-soluble salts, which could have been slipped into coffee served to Litvenenko, include Tl(I) nitrate, fluoride, and acetate, and Tl(III) chloride. Of these, Tl(I) acetate is the most nearly tasteless and one of the most soluble, and most likely to be used to poison someone in food or drink; it has a S.G. of 3.68, and is so soluble in water that it is used as the basis of "Clerici's solution", with a S.G. of about 2.7, which is used analytically to separate heavy particles in fine powder mixtures from quartz or similar light rock mineral particles.

12AX7 - 21-11-2006 at 19:02

Just who determined the taste of thallium salts?

Tim

BromicAcid - 21-11-2006 at 19:05

There was a famous case in America where a whole family was poisoned by their neighbor. They used a thallium based rat poison and put it in their coca-cola. No one figured it out till their illness was fairly progressed. As I understand it there are some therapies out there now for treating thallium poisoning.

I also have a book on poisoning methods and it lists thallium poisoning as one of the most horrible ways to die and goes through a number of the symptoms both physically and psychologically a victim would experience.

It's amazing how few people know anything about the toxicological properties of thallium compounds. Arsenic seems to hold top roost, you can almost never find arsenic salts or metal on eBay, but antimony, which is, as I understand it, similarly toxic, is available most of the time for $10 a pound or so.

There was a book written on the aforementioned thallium poisoning called Poison Mind, the link to the amazon book is:
http://www.amazon.com/Poison-Mind-Murderer-Policewoman-Justi...

pantone159 - 21-11-2006 at 19:10

Tl(I) replaces K in the body machinery, as it fits in those places, but it doesn't work right, so those systems quit working.

Supposedly, Prussian blue (potassium ferric ferrocyanide) acts as an antidote if taken right away, the Tl(I) works its way into the Prussian blue structure, and since that is insoluble, it gets removed. The same trick works to remove Cs, which is important in the case of the radioisotope Cs-137.

Ozone - 21-11-2006 at 19:41

Hello,

I have been following this with interest. This KGB fellow is included with at least 2 (maybe 3) journalists who have *obviously* been assassinated.

Although the toxidrome for thallium is well known (but, often expresses somewhat differently in various patients), the mechanisms behind its toxicity are unknown.

What is known, is that the element binds to melanin in skin and hair follicles, and that alopecia is ubiquitous as a result of arrested mitosis (whew, *bad*). So, radiothallium is not expressly required for this symptom.

There is much information here:

http://www.inchem.org/documents/ehc/ehc/ehc182.htm

Also be sure to check out:

Casarett & Doulls The Basic Science of Poisons

and,

Gonzales, T.A., Vance, M. and Helpern (1940), Legal Medicine and Toxicology., pp. 513. (My copy is *well loved* and I have thought of scanning it for the archives; it's a classic).

Besides arresting mitotic division, I suspect a disruption of protein synthesis as well. Otherwise, it resembles Pb, in terms of generalized heavy-metal toxicity (a virulent one at that, 0.2-0.5g LD). Thallium also appears to be nephrotoxic as well (see Cd), a paper is attached here; see pp. 16 (I was lazy and did not excise this bit and re-distill it).

The trick is, how was it administered? My guess is with the drink; I think the food at a sushi joint would require too much conspiracy.

You are what you eat,

O3

Attachment: Thallium pp 16.pdf (623kB)
This file has been downloaded 892 times

The_Davster - 21-11-2006 at 21:26

Heard a story from an old professor of mine, a grad student was working with Tl salts over an extended period of time, no special protection nor accidental exposure(that was mentioned). A while later he developed gray sores on his body which doctors did not have any idea what they were. Until they analysed them chemically...it was thallium metal being deposited on his skin.

unionised - 23-11-2006 at 13:21

There was a case of some bloke (Graham Young) who poisoned a number of his family with Tl. He was young at the time so he was locked up for a while but the records were wiped clean when he was released from psychiatric care. He then went on to get a job in a photograhphic lens makers- one of the few places where Tl is legitimately used and (old habits die hard) he went on to poison a number of his workmates.
He got caught when he mentioned to the people investigating this outbreak of "illness" at his workplace that the symptoms looked like Tl poisoning. Someone got suspiciuos of how he knew so much about it.
He was found guilty and imprisoned but not for long. He died "mysteriously" in prison.
There's a film about his life "A young poisoner's handbook" for those who are interested and he also gets a good write up in John Emsley's interesting book "the elements of murder".

Much more to the point, Tl is named after the Greek word for a green shoot because it gives a nice clear green colour in a flame test.
If " the Authorities" can't find Thalium in a poisoning case they need to get someone more competent. If it's a radioisotope then (unless it's a really short half-life one) then they really need shooting- don't they know you can get a geiger counter on Ebay?
My money is on this being a rather more esoteric poison.

chemoleo - 23-11-2006 at 18:26

How about selenium?

It also makes your hair fall out, and produces similar symptoms.

Surely though the meds must have thought of it.

The more I am VERY surprised they didnt figure out what the poison was, given all the analytical methods available.

Poor fellow. What a way to go. This KGB 1960s shit is so outdated it hurts.

JohnWW - 23-11-2006 at 18:34

I have just heard on the radio and TV news that Col. Alexander Litvenenko has just died, in intensive care at the University Hospital, London. Apparently, the pathologists now think that he was poisoned with either something else other than thallium but which caused similar symptoms, or with something besides thallium. An anti-cancer drug has now been suggested, along with a radioisotope. However, it will be some weeks, probably, before analytical tests for all possible substances have been completed. It will take a real-life James Bond to crack this case.

[Edited on 24-11-2006 by JohnWW]

Jdurg - 23-11-2006 at 18:43

Quote:

Originally posted by chemoleo
How about selenium?

It also makes your hair fall out, and produces similar symptoms.

Surely though the meds must have thought of it.

The more I am VERY surprised they didnt figure out what the poison was, given all the analytical methods available.

Poor fellow. What a way to go. This KGB 1960s shit is so outdated it hurts.

I don't think there are any selenium compounds out there which you could easily spike someone's food or drink with and not have them know about it. Selenium compounds REEK!

chemoleo - 23-11-2006 at 18:55

But SeO2 doesnt. Nor does red amorphous Se.

From wiki

Quote:

Symptoms of selenosis include a garlic odour on the breath, gastrointestinal disorders, hair loss, sloughing of nails, fatigue, irritability and neurological damage. Extreme cases of selenosis can result in cirrhosis of the liver, pulmonary edema and death

I suppose they'd have noticed the garlic breath though....

[Edited on 24-11-2006 by chemoleo]

YT2095 - 24-11-2006 at 08:02

turns out it wasn`t Thallium but Po210 that poisoned him.

Jdurg - 24-11-2006 at 11:45

Quote:

Originally posted by chemoleo
But SeO2 doesnt. Nor does red amorphous Se.

From wiki

Quote:

I suppose they'd have noticed the garlic breath though....

[Edited on 24-11-2006 by chemoleo]

Yes, but you couldn't spike someone's food with that stuff and not have it be noticeable. Red selenium morphs right back into gray/black selenium as soon as ANY type of heat source is put near it. In addition, it is a very noticeable and very bright red compound. SeO2 will also react with many of the compounds commonly found in food and give off a very noticeable stench. Yes, it is possible to poison someone with selenium but the person would need to have no sense of smell and incredibly poor vision.

Biginelli - 24-11-2006 at 12:38

Thallium is quite possible for another reason: there was an analogous case 25 years before, namely the poisoning of DDR citizen Wolfgang Welsch in 1981 (for writing a memorandum against accepting DDR into UN) by Stasi agents. Thallium was used in that case; more of all, this was corroborated by medical analysis. This was the only case against such an action brought in the court in mid-90s.

JohnWW - 24-11-2006 at 15:26

I have seen on the internet news, and heard on the radio news, that it was not Tl, or even radioactive Tl-201 (its stable isotopes are 203 and 205), that killed him (unless it was as a minor component of the dose given him), but radioactive polonium-210. Po-210 can be made by bombarding stable Bi-209 (the heaviest completely stable isotope known) with neutrons (from a Ra-Be source, probably), which converts it to unstable Bi-210, which in turn quickly emits a beta-particle to become Po-210. It is the most easily obtained isotope of Po. See http://www.answers.com/topic/polonium and http://www.ead.anl.gov/pub/doc/polonium.pdf and http://library.thinkquest.org/10676/Period/po.html and http://www.chemicalelements.com/elements/po.html . Polonium has no stable isotopes, and its longest-lived one, Po-209, has a half-life of only 102 years (decaying mostly by emitting a gamma and K-electron capture to become Bi-209, and partly by emitting a neutron and then K-electron capture to become Pb-208). Po-210 is an alpha-emitter with a half-life of only 138.39 days, decaying to stable Pb-206, one of the four stable isotopes of Pb.

Apparently, Col. Litvenenko's urine was found to have substantial alpha-particle radiation having the energy characteristic of those from Po-210. Confirmation could presumably come by chemically analysing for Po, e.g. by atomic absorption spectroscopy. The stuff, in the form of a soluble Po compound, must have been "slipped" into tea or other drink served to him while he visited a London hotel with two mysterious Russians on 1st November, probably while his attention was distracted by documents being shown to him. Later that day, he visited a London sushi restaurant with an Italian researcher into state-sponsored terrorism, who is almost certainly innocent, and it was only after that he began feeling ill.

The most easily-obtainable oxidation state of Po is (IV), with the (VI) state being either unattainable or very strongly oxidizing (like bismuthate(V)). The most likely soluble compound used to poison him would have been sodium polonite, Na2PoO3, possibly administered in a mixture with the selenite or tellurite, and possibly along with thallous acetate. Po(IV) would be not only chemically highly toxic like compounds of Te(IV) and Se(IV), being similarly degraded in the liver (Litvenenko's liver was effectively destroyed, hence his jaundice) to compounds like H2Po, Po(CH3)4, and Po(CH3)2 (these would be very smelly!), but also radioactively toxic, hence the destruction of his bone-marrow cells. In a country like Russia, ONLY a technological government agency like the KGB would have access to Po-210, which means that Putin's denials of KGB involvement are lies, unless it were a "rogue element" in the KGB.

[Edited on 25-11-2006 by JohnWW]

MargaretThatcher - 24-11-2006 at 16:37

I think the radiological toxicity of Po210 far outweighs the chemical toxicity. It would be pointless co-administering a gramme or so of thallium compound with such a toxic substance.

nitro-genes - 24-11-2006 at 17:23

What I don't understand is the nature of the toxin used. It is certainly no low profile toxin and can easily be traced, as they in fact did. There are a lot of toxins that are almost undetectable and can be fatal weeks or even years after exposure. In other words, what happened to the classy ricin-firing-umbrella?!

Poor basterds, even the KGB has probably no money anymore to function properly....

[Edited on 25-11-2006 by nitro-genes]

The_Davster - 24-11-2006 at 17:30

I doubt tracing stuff over there is as easy as here. It could have been some sort of industrial waste; why buy poisons when people will give you waste that is just as nasty for free...

MargaretThatcher - 24-11-2006 at 18:32

On the contrary, Po-210 is a product of nuclear research reactors - very expensive and difficult to procure. Its very nature means that the source is no mystery. If they could get to the guy and administer such an awkward compound, they could more easily have stuck cyanide in his tea, or ricin or whatever. I think this is a very public way of setting an example.

unionised - 25-11-2006 at 06:51

"In a country like Russia, ONLY a technological government agency like the KGB would have access to Po-210, which means that Putin's denials of KGB involvement are lies, unless it were a "rogue element" in the KGB."

What relevance has the availabillity of Po in Russia?

It's perfectly possible that he was poisoned by someone who wanted to discredit Putin's government. The CIA or MI6 would be perfectly capable of getting hold of Po. I'm not saying that's likely- just that, as scientists, we shouldn't jump to conclusions.
(BTW, Bi has no stable isotope 209Bi has a very long half life.)

JohnWW - 25-11-2006 at 06:54

Besides making the stuff in a secret nuclear laboratory in Moscow as described above, the KGB would have had to somehow smuggle the freshly-made Po-210 (half-life only 138 days) into the U.K.. Its strong radioactivity would have shown up as an anomaly on the X-ray screen in the form of a bright halo, if it had come into London in ordinary air passengers' baggage, all of which is now X-rayed, and any chemical poisons brought with it may also have suspiciously fluoresced under X-rays (as do also many drugs such as cocaine and heroin, and many explosives). The Po-210 and any chemical poisons must, therefore, have been somehow smuggled in by the KGB other than through ordinary passengers' baggage, mostly likely in diplomatic baggage which is immune to search, and quite possibly on board a special diplomatic plane, being thereby delivered into the hands of the KGB attache in the Russian Embassy.

The latest I have heard is that the British Government, not believing Putin's denials of KGB involvement, has summoned the Russian Ambassador and demanded an explanation. The whole case has the "fingerprints" of the KGB all over it.

Unionized: As for motives to kill Col. Litvenenko, only Putin and the KGB would have had any conceivable motives, i.e. revenge and to prevent the disclosure of any further damaging information, because of the Colonel's constant published severe criticisms of them, in which incriminating facts about them had been disclosed. The CIA and MI5 or MI6 would have been quite content to sit back and "lap up" his revelations, as he was effectively (if not formally) working for them.

[Edited on 25-11-2006 by JohnWW]

Ozone - 25-11-2006 at 07:44

Well...

Either the 210 Po is in fact rather clever *or* a red herring. 210Po would have the advantage of being very toxic while transmuting rather quickly into 206 Pb, which is a stable isotope (%abun. ~24%). This would make the doses small, and very hard to trace (unless you look for 206Pb exceeding the normal isotopic abundance using ICP/MS-you would need to ash Kg's of his tissue to reach the MDL).

On the other hand, 210 Po is also found naturally in equilibrium as a result of the normal a-decay of 238U (or 210Bi (b)). No doubt there may be have been good exposure to depleted uranium and or fuel/weapon manufacturing to KGB agents. So, there may be a small amount of Po in equilibrium with anyone carrying around some quantity of 238 U inside of themselves

.

As for radioisotope methodology goes, Po can be separated quite easily and multichannel alpha counting is quite specific. The sample is wet-ashed and a shiny silver disk is added for sometime. The Po plates onto the disk, and can easily be concentrated and counted.

At the moment, I agree with the complicity of the diplomatic pouch...

Take care all,

O3

Pyrovus - 25-11-2006 at 07:52

Quote:

Either the 210 Po is in fact rather clever *or* a red herring. 210Po would have the advantage of being very toxic while transmuting rather quickly into 206 Pb

A half life of 138 days is 'rather quickly'? Assuming they get around to doing an autopsy within about a year or two of a murder involving Po-210, they'll still be able to detect the radiation produced by it.

Jdurg - 25-11-2006 at 08:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Ozone
On the other hand, 210 Po is also found naturally in equilibrium as a result of the normal a-decay of 238U (or 210Bi (b)). No doubt there may be have been good exposure to depleted uranium and or fuel/weapon manufacturing to KGB agents. So, there may be a small amount of Po in equilibrium with anyone carrying around some quantity of 238 U inside of themselves

The half-life of U-238, as well as all of its daughter products, is so unbelievably long that if you had a kilogram of U-238 you'd only have a few nanograms, if that, of Po-210 in there.

JohnWW - 25-11-2006 at 09:41

In spite of its low level of radioactivity and its half-life of 4.5 x 10^9 years, U-238 itself is very toxic, although chemically as distinct from radioactively. This toxicity would be far greater than the radioactive toxicity (due mainly to the damage done to quickly-dividing cells, such as those in the gut and liver and bone-marrow, by high-energy alpha-particles, which can also cause cancer) of the equilibrium amount of Po-210 iin its decay products. Have you heard about the cancer deaths (including of U.S. Army personnel) and birth deformities due to the use of depleted uranium bullets and shells in Iraq by the Bu$h régime to obtain greater penetration of targets (on account of the hardness and high density of U)? Such processed depleted uranium would have only very minute amounts of decay products in it.

JohnWW - 25-11-2006 at 10:09

Here is even more motive for the KGB to have "done in" the Colonel; Yukos is the major oil company in Russia, which was "privatised" in a sordid deal in which it ended up in the hands of the son of an old Communist Party boss who had gotten rich by taking bribes and having his hand in the government till for decades:

Dead Russian Spy was israeli Double Agent

Murdered Russian ex-spy Alexander Litvinenko passed documents to former Yukos CEO in Israel months before his death . . .
November 25, 2006, 9:10 AM (GMT+02:00)
Leonid Nevzlin, former CEO of the oil giant and current chairman of the Diaspora Museum in Tel Aviv, says the former Russian spy came to Israel with classified documents on Yukos which may be damaging to Russian leaders. Nevzliln estimates that Litvinenko's death was connected with this information, which he has handed to London police investigators of the murder.
DEBKAfile's intelligence sources add that the Russian ex-spy is believed to have been a double agent, who sold trade secrets to different parties in and outside Russia, among them some of the Russian oligarchs living in exile in the West. Livinenko served as a colonel in a Russian Federal Security Services unit which investigated and carried out special operations against businessmen.
British police found traces of the radioactive Polonium 210 in Litvinenko's urine.
The London media accuse Vladimir Putin of being behind the murder which they claim was politically-motivated.

Sure as heck puts israeli relations with Russia in a whole new different light.
http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/153

enhzflep - 25-11-2006 at 10:26

Certainly, Po is by no means easy to come by, with an estimated global total yearly production of just 100 grams!

Mind you, 1 gram of it can create energy at a rate of 150W! And accordin' to wiki, the amount required to effect death is practically non-existant.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonium,

"At a committed effective dose equivalent (CEDE) of 5.14×10−7 Sieverts per Becquerel (1.9×103 mrem/microcurie) for ingested 210Po and a specific activity of 1.66×1014 Bq/gram (4.49×103 Curies/gram)[4] the amount of material required to produce a lethal dose of 10 Sieverts would be only 0.12 micrograms (1.17×10−7g). The biological halflife is 50 to 30 days in humans.[5]

Interesting for a number of points. Firstly just for the "wow!" factor, did you get that the first time? One gram of Po is able to deliver 10 Sieverts (lethal dose) to over 8 million people,

But thinking about 1/2 life and the lethal dose again, although hard to come by even by nuclear standards, nothing's impossible. My point is that even a source that was 7.5 years old would have 0.9 ug remaining. Just pissing in the wind here, let's say a Po containing compound was 50% Po. In that case, Our 1 gram sample would now contain 0.45 ug. By dispersing 300mg into a drink, the lethal dose would be delivered.

If however, the source was far newer & additionally the compound was greater than 50% Po then clearly the quantity required to poison somebody would drop rather rapidly.

Going on the effects of the poor chap, I'd be somewhat hesitant to say I thought he got 10 Sv. His symptoms and the timeline of his decline seem to be more in the realm of 7-8Sv or less. But everyone's different I guess. Also, the body can endure a greater quantity of low level radiation than it can short-duration, high intensity radiation. So 'spose it's really anyone's guess for at least a few days.

Although I reckon it's far from likely, given the ability to store a sample of it for a relatively short period, it could still have just been an underword hit, russian style.

pantone159 - 25-11-2006 at 11:44

If all you need is a few tenths of a microgram of Po-210, this is actually not hard, but very easy to get, as a consumer product even.

'Staticmaster' anti-static brushes have an element containing 250 microcuries of Po-210, which I calculate as around 50 ng (0.050 ug). US$ 9 each for the antistatic element with the Po.

These things are cool demonstations of alpha radiation btw, if you have a geiger counter that can detect alphas. (It needs to have a mica window to allow the alphas, which have very low penetration ability, to enter the detector.) If you hold the brush 5 cm from the counter, it reads basically nothing but background. Move it to 0.5 cm away, and, with a new element, I overload my detector.

Sometime ago I calculated the lethal dose as 2/3 ug (don't remember the references), which is 13 of these things. For 0.12 ug dose, it is just 3 of them.

MargaretThatcher - 25-11-2006 at 11:55

Po-210 has a Dose Coefficient of 5.14 x 10E-7 Sv/Bq when ingested. From this and the half-life, you can calculate the lethal dose. This is a fraction of a microgram.

vulture - 25-11-2006 at 14:07

Quote:

The Po-210 and any chemical poisons must, therefore, have been somehow smuggled in by the KGB other than through ordinary passengers' baggage, mostly likely in diplomatic baggage which is immune to search, and quite possibly on board a special diplomatic plane, being thereby delivered into the hands of the KGB attache in the Russian Embassy.

Lol, how many miles of unprotected shore does the UK have? And you think they'd bring it in through air?

pantone159 - 25-11-2006 at 14:13

Po-210 would be trivial to smuggle successfully. It emits only alphas, which have almost no penetrating capability. A thin glass vial (or anything else, even 5 cm of air) would absorb absolutely all of this radiation, so detectors would record zero.

unionised - 26-11-2006 at 01:28

If we are really talking about a handful of static eliminators then I don't think we need to think about smuggling.
"Oh, yes- those; I'm bringing them in to sell in my record shop- you know how it is- with CD's and that, most of my customers have switched from vinyl. I need something to keep the customers interested. They are worth about £XXX What's the duty on that and will you take a cheque?"
This seems to have changed slightly from "Only the KGB could do this".
As pantone has pointed out it would be difficult to transpport these in a way that the alphas were not screened- a plastic carrier bag would do.
BTW, the KGB don't exist anymore.

JohnWW - 26-11-2006 at 01:31

The KGB have merely changed their name to FSB - the Federal Security Bureau. Nothing else has changed.

unionised - 26-11-2006 at 01:52

True, the KGB have just been relabeled. But the rest of the world has changed.
For example, imagine that some group of, let's say, Chechen fighters, wanted to discredit Putin and his government. If they were to kill some reasonably well known defector in such a way that everyone says "This looks like the KGB" they would achieve that objective with no real risk of being found out.
There are other terrorist groups who would benefit from worse relations between the East and West.
Gulf war 1 had East and West in agreement- the coalition won.
Gulf war 2 has just bits of the West The coalition isn't winning yet.
I know that's a gross oversimplification, but it does indicate that there might be other forces at work here.

There are plenty of groups for whom killing some "innocent" defector to score political points would be perfectly reasonable. The Taliban probably remember the days when they were fighting against the USSR. Some of them may feel they still have a score to settle. If they were to kill some former Soviet officer and discredit Putin (thereby reducing the likelihood of cooperation between East and West in the "fight against terrorism") they might feel they had done very well out of it.

MargaretThatcher - 26-11-2006 at 03:47

Quote:

Originally posted by unionised
True, the KGB have just been relabeled. But the rest of the world has changed.

You have internalised the propaganda. The world hasn't changed - it's just the same.

The largest terrorist organisations are the CIA, KGB, Mossad, MI6 and DGSE, and it has always been this way. These organisations are responsible for the majority of terrorist atrocities. It is likely that he was knocked off either by one of these groups or perhaps a gangster whose nose he had put out of joint.

unionised - 26-11-2006 at 07:07

"True, the KGB have just been relabeled. But the rest of the world has changed.
You have internalised the propaganda. The world hasn't changed - it's just the same."
What, some bastard has rebuilt the Berlin wall and the cold war's back on?
I know the media is a bit of a disaster but I relly would have expected to hear about that.

Previously, the Western government used the USSR as the bogeyman to scare the people into submission.The USSR collapsed so now they use the terrorist threat and the "axis of evil" to do the same thing (If not more in the name of "homeland security"). (BTW, can someone ask W who signs the armistice when we win the war against terror, but not in this thread?).

On the other side of this, the folks who now find themselves vilified by the West (the USA in particular) feel that they need to fight back.
I grant that the same bunches of murderers (CIA KGB whoever) are still doing the same job, it's just that the relations between them got a bit more complex.

" It is likely that he was knocked off either by one of these groups or perhaps a gangster whose nose he had put out of joint."
That's more or less the point I was making; just because it looks like the KGB (and I'm not sure it does) doesn't mean it was them. It could have been any of a bunch of people trying to blame the KGB.

Ozone - 26-11-2006 at 09:25

Hello All,

Apologies, I was not clear that I was considering the biological elimination half-life as well (I was also speculating quite a bit, the news here is *unreliable*. In fact, I thoroughly appreciate media confirmation from those here who live outside of the US.)

It is also known that smokers (such as myself, cough cough) have detectable Po in both urine and blood. Did he smoke? I Saw no mention in the news here of the amounts detected in his urine. From this, it would be relatively simple (considering the timeline) to determine the approximate size of the administered dose.

If considering the bio t1/2 and the decay t1/2, this places his time-of-death burden at approximately 62.5% of the original dose (I used 2ug for the calcs.) not the 89.1% that would be suggested purely on the nuclear decay constant.

I have attached a spreadsheet for this, and have included a polt of the % of total dose on the relative timeline of Litvinenko's demise. From t=0 (dose) to 23 d (death), I use the 2 path exponential decay constant; from 23d (death) to 26d (now) I use only the nuclear decay constant.

Since Po is more-or-less considered "whole-body-dosage" (non-compartmental, viz. Ra, Pu and bones), this should be approximate.

Take care,

O3

Attachment: 210Po Worksheet.xls (224kB)
This file has been downloaded 678 times

JohnWW - 26-11-2006 at 17:19

Thanks, Ozone. Po-210 gets into tobacco where it is grown in soils containing traces of uranium and its decay products such as Po-210 - these would be clays and sedimentary rocks ultimately derived from the weathering of granite, which often contains rare-earth and uranium and thorium minerals. Many plants, such as tobacco, selectively take up and concentrate heavy metals from soil, and selenium, tellurium, and polonium in particular. "Loco-weed" in the southwestern U.S.A., in areas where soils contain Se and Te, is notorious for this, resulting in "selenium staggers" in cattle that eat it.

As for who killed Colonel Litvinenko, one has to look for motives, as well as who had the necessary access to the nuclear laboratory technology required to synthesize Po-210 from Bi-209 using a Ra-Be neutron source, or to radiochemical laboratories which receive and use the stuff as a tracer isotope for research purposes (e.g. in studying the metabolism of Te in plants). Unionized's possible alternatives simply do not "wash", and I am sure that such a highly radioactive and carcinogenic substance (as well as being short-lived) would NOT be used in static eliminators or smoke detectors currently sold to the public. Anyone else other than the KGB who wanted to "do the Colonel in" would have chosen a far less expensive and sophisticated method than Po-210, or a tiny ball containing ricin fired from an umbrella, both of which are difficult to obtain, to kill him in an hotel or restaurant, - for example, thallium or cyanide or curare or strychnine stolen from a university chemistry laboratory or a pesticides manufacturer, or simply a high-caliber bullet fired from a concealed derringer-type gun fitted with a silencer.

[Edited on 27-11-2006 by JohnWW]

pantone159 - 26-11-2006 at 19:44

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnWW
I am sure that such a highly radioactive and carcinogenic substance (as well as being short-lived) would be used in static eliminators or smoke detectors currently sold to the public.

I'm not sure you wrote this right, I thought you really meant you didn't think Po-210 is used in consumer products. My reply assuming that...

Po-210 isn't used in smoke detectors, but I am completely sure that it is used in some anti-static brushes. I have one myself, I bought it online from one of those gigantic NY photo stores, about 2 years ago. 'Consumer product' is stretching it a bit, this being kind of a specialist photo item. It is very interesting to hold it up to a alpha detecting counter - at 10 cm the counter picks up nothing, at 1 cm the counter maxes out.

not_important - 26-11-2006 at 20:25

Reports are suggesting that aerosol delivery was used. This implies a larger dose, as does any adjustment for how well the body would absorb the form the Po was in.

That still would be easy to bring into the UK, the aerosol container would shield the alpha radiation. They could start with 50x the needed amount so as to have more than enough allowing for decay, inefficiency in delievery and absorbtion, and biological elimination. When you're done, toss the container in the trash, or drop it down some pipe or shaft where it's likely to be undisturbed for a few years.

There's plenty of poisons, both natural and synthetic, that could be used for such a job. Some have the advantage that by the time the symptoms appear enough damage has been done that the victim is highly likely to be saved. Note that there are a number of books with titles similar to "The Poisonous Plant of ...", you need not even have to import anything.

unionised - 26-11-2006 at 22:51

http://www.amstat.com/solutions/staticmaster.html

Didn't take much finding.

JohnWW - 27-11-2006 at 14:46

Quote:

Originally posted by pantone159

Quote:

I'm not sure you wrote this right, I thought you really meant you didn't think Po-210 is used in consumer products. My reply assuming that...
Po-210 isn't used in smoke detectors, but I am completely sure that it is used in some anti-static brushes. I have one myself, I bought it online from one of those gigantic NY photo stores, about 2 years ago. 'Consumer product' is stretching it a bit, this being kind of a specialist photo item. It is very interesting to hold it up to a alpha detecting counter - at 10 cm the counter picks up nothing, at 1 cm the counter maxes out.

I made a mistake, since corrected - insert the word "not" between "would" and "b" in my previous post.

MargaretThatcher - 27-11-2006 at 17:08

Ozone, you may have seen this already. The dose coefficients have considerable uncertainty - certainly not the 3 sig. figs. shown here.

Attachment: 210PoPDF.pdf (81kB)
This file has been downloaded 923 times

Ozone - 27-11-2006 at 20:52

Thanks for pointing that out M.T.!

That is true, I put that together rather quickly. Expect 2 sig figs (at *absolute* best). There are even slight deviations in fundamental data including the energy of the main particle energy bin, viz. http://t2.lanl.gov/cgi-bin/decay?200,8437 . I'll have to dig out my old Rad. Health handbook (the pink one) to see what it says. I would round to the nearest whole number and apply a "safety factor" if I were to bet the farm on this. Unfortunately, we are limited to wild speculation and "back-of-the-napkin calculations".

4.5 mCi/ug (157 MBq/ug) at 5.4 MeV with a quality factor of 4 packs quite a punch! The standard "man" at 70 Kg will have ~2MBq/Kg (@5.4MeV, almost quantitative)! If time permits, I'll put together a dose-table for this.

Note to self: Mind those significant figures!

Take care everyone,

O3

JohnWW - 30-11-2006 at 13:29

The latest news on the Po-210 poisoning of Col. Litvinenko is that the London Metropolitan anti-terrorism cops, and the British Secret Police (MI5 & MI6), have detained for forensic testing four British Airways passenger jets that flew from Moscow to London in late October, after traces of Po-210 were found on them, and they are also trying to trace thousands of passengers who were on them. In addition, traces of Po-210 have been found in the Colonel's home, and two other London pubs that he visited the day that he fell ill.

Also, a former Russian Prime Minister, presumably opposed to Putin, fell ill while visiting Dublin, Ireland, on the day the Colonel died; he collapsed bleeding from his mouth and nose, which could be either radiological or chemical poisoning, and doctors are sure that he was deliberately poisoned.

BTW Has anyone here ever actually handled polonium isotopes?

MargaretThatcher - 30-11-2006 at 14:38

The Russian Prime Minister has discharged himself from the Dublin hospital and returned to Moscow. He had preexisting health problems including diabetes (which can predispose towards nose bleeds).

They must know something about who was on those flights to ground the planes for forensics like that.

Drunkguy - 30-11-2006 at 14:57

Oh they do, and its only a metter of time before the nuclear bomb explodes

pantone159 - 1-12-2006 at 13:03

I find it strange that, if a state intelligence service was really behind this (e.g. whatever the KGB is called these days), that there would be traces of Po-210 left on the aircraft.

It seems an obvious thing to do, to transport the Po-210 in a sealed glass ampule, so none would leak out. I would expect that the KGB/etc would have the resources to get that right.

But, whoever really did this, wasn't so careful. The radiation trails will provide a LOT of evidence about what happened, which will be a lesson that radioactives aren't that great a poison, if you don't want to get caught.

JohnWW - 1-12-2006 at 15:58

Mario Scaramello, the Italian academic who met Litvinenko in a London sushi restaurant (Litvinenko's last meeting before suddenly falling ill later that day, 1 November), after the latter had met two mysterious Russians in the Mayfair Hotel who claimed to have documents suggesting who recently murdered a Russian journalist in Moscow (also critical of Putin), has just been also found to be contaminated with Po-210, although there is "no immediate threat to his life". Traces of Po-210 have now been found in Litvinenko's home, in his wife's body, and in another London hotel, the Millennium Hotel. The polonium compound that the Russians slipped into Litvinenko's drink in the Mayfair Hotel (after distracting him with documents) must have been metabolized in his body into volatile compounds (e.g. hydrogen polonide or dimethylpolonium) which were exhaled in his breath, which would explain how Scaramello became contaminated, and the traces of Po-210 found elsewhere.

12AX7 - 1-12-2006 at 16:07

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnWW
(e.g. hydrogen polonide or dimethylpolonium)

Geez, I bet those smell bad. I mean, even worse than the usual ones...

Tim

JohnWW - 1-12-2006 at 16:12

Yes, they would smell even worse than hydrogen selenide and telluride, and dimethylselenium and dimethyltellurium. However, there was nothing in the news about Col. Litvinenko smelling bad before he died, in addition to losing his hair and becoming visibly jaundiced.

Jdurg - 1-12-2006 at 16:30

All I know is that I just came back from a business trip to London and I'm hoping that I didn't unwillingly add a new element to my collection!

JohnWW - 8-12-2006 at 01:13

I have heard that Col. Litvinenko has just been buried, after a prolonged autopsy, in a heavy sealed lead-lined coffin. This was because of the radioactivity of his body, in which the Po is being converted to volative compounds, and because the undertakers could not safely drain the blood from his body in order to inject formalin embalming fluid. Also, another Russian has fallen seriously ill with Po poisoning; I wonder if it was the one who slipped the Po into Litvinenko's food or drink.

Litvinenko was stated to have converted to Islam on his deathbead, but in view of the state he was in, that would be hardly a valid conversion.

JohnWW - 8-12-2006 at 18:46

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061208/ap_on_re_eu/poisoned_spy
- the latest news - it looks as if the mystery is starting to unravel, as the two Russians who met Col. Litvinenko in the Millennium Hotel have themselves been found to be also heavily contaminated with Po-210. The suspicion is, naturally, that it was they who poisoned the Colonel by spiking his food or tea:

Hotel bar is focus of ex-spy death probe
By DAVID STRINGER, Associated Press Writer

LONDON - Detectives investigating the poisoning death of an ex-KGB agent focused Friday on a meeting at a London hotel bar where at least 10 people may have been exposed to the radioactive isotope found in his body. Colleagues in Moscow hoped to question one of those people, Andrei Lugovoi — another former KGB agent and security consultant named by British law enforcement officials as a key witness in the poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko. Lugovoi met Litvinenko at the bar of London's Millennium Hotel on Nov. 1 — the day Litvinenko fell ill.

Russian media reported that both Lugovoi and his business associate at that meeting, Dmitry Kovtun, also showed signs of radioactive contamination. On Friday, the Interfax news agency reported that he had radiation damage to his intestines and kidneys.

Interfax also quoted unidentified medical sources as saying that checks of Lugovoi found that some of his organs had malfunctioned, but Lugovoi himself later told the ITAR-Tass news agency that he was feeling "normal." Seven hotel employees who were working at the London bar that day also tested positive for exposure to radiation, British health officials said.

Among the others contaminated by the poison is Mario Scaramella, an Italian security consultant working with the Italian parliament who also met the Russian in London Nov. 1. Scaramella was found to have significant quantities of polonium-210 in his body and there are concerns for his health, but he has not developed symptoms of radiation poisoning. Marina Litvinenko, the agent's wife, also received a dose of the poison, but doctors say it was not enough to make her sick.

Dr. Michael Clarke of Britain's Health Protection Agency said the polonium-210 poisoning likely was carried out at the hotel bar — but a British police official said no conclusions had been drawn. The official said the venue was an integral part of the case, speaking on condition of anonymity because she was not authorized to speak about the case. "People go to bars to drink, eat and smoke — all of which are possibilities for the poisoning," Clarke told The Associated Press.

Litvinenko's friend Alex Goldfarb said the former spy sipped tea during the meeting, while Lugovoi said he recalls ordering a bottle of gin. Clarke said polonium could have been discreetly added to food or drink. "If it was some sort of liquid, it could have been — as in James Bond — a little magic capsule," Clarke said Thursday, the day Litvinenko was buried in a specially sealed coffin.

Litvinenko died at a London hospital on Nov. 23. Doctors said he was poisoned with a massive dose of the radioactive substance. Traces of polonium-210 have been found at several sites he visited in recent weeks, including the stadium of London's Arsenal soccer club and the British Embassy in Moscow. Health officials said traces of polonium also had been uncovered at the Parkes Hotel in London's Mayfair neighborhood — where Lugovoi stayed Oct. 16.

Russian Prosecutor General Yuri Chaika said Wednesday that British police would not be allowed to question him directly, but could attend while Russian officers conducted the interrogation. Andrei Romashov, a lawyer for Lugovoi, denied a report that Kovtun had slipped into a coma after meeting Russian investigators and Scotland Yard detectives. Interfax later cited a source as saying Kovtun had regained consciousness but was in serious condition. It said Lugovoi doing better than Kovtun but also showed signs of contamination. Lugovoi told ITAR-Tass that he did not trust reports about Kovtun's condition and urged an end to "speculation" about their condition.

Russian prosecutors announced Thursday they had opened a criminal case into the murder of Litvinenko and attempted murder of Kovtun. A criminal probe in Russia would allow suspects to be prosecuted there. Officials previously have said Russia would not extradite any suspects in Litvinenko's killing.

Organikum - 12-12-2006 at 01:54

Regarding the incredible Polonium trace through Europe it meanwhile looks to me as some ex-KGB guys stole the polonium in Russia for the moneys worth ($30 million or so). But not being the super spies they didnt really realize what they got there (or maybe they got willingly misinformed) and they handled it without any care. It might simply come out as an accident by stupidity and greed.

I believe it is a misconception to think that those defectors are first tier, they are not. Historically with very few exceptions the disgrunteled underachievers tend to defect. Maybe they were tricked - but that would be solely their problem and responsibility.

JohnWW - 19-1-2010 at 01:06

For the sake of completeness:
In the light of my observation in the more recent thread http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=13272 about tellurium,
I am fairly sure that, because of the microscopic amount of polonium-210 needed to be fatal to a person through its intense alpha-radioactivity (half-life 183 days), something like 0.7 nanogram per kg by injection or ingestion being an estimated LD50 dose, and also the fact that Po-210 can be produced and safely handled only in very small quantities by the bombardment of Bi-209 with neutrons (Bi-210 quickly decaying to Po-210 by beta-emission) or protons, the Po-210 would have been "bulked up" by the Russian KGB to a macroscopic quantity of material by mixing a compound of it with the similar compound of tellurium. This would have been necessary in order for Lugovoi to handle and add the stuff to Col. Litvinenko's pot of tea in the hotel in London where they met in November 2006, to poison the latter.

It is quite common for microscopic amounts of highly radioactive elements to be mixed in this way with macroscopic amounts of homologous elements as a "carrier", to bulk them up. For example, Ra compounds are mixed with the same compounds of Ba. The mixed compound of Po and Te used by Lugovoi as the poison would, of necessity, have been one that was readily soluble in warm water. The Po-210 initially produced from Bi-209 metal would have been as the free element, so to this elemental Te would have been added, and the mixture made into a water-soluble (without hydrolysis) compound. It seems to be that the most likely mixed Po and Te compound made by the KGB would have been either the dioxides, or else, if these are too volatile, the Na or K polonite(IV) and tellurite(IV). Polonates(VI) are too unstable and strongly oxidizing, compared to tellurates(VI), for the purpose.

So, because the microscopic amount of Po compound mixed with a macroscopic amount of the Te compound administered by Lugovoi, it is very likely indeed, as I had surmised above, that in the days between his poisoning and death in hospital, Col. Litvinenko would have become very smelly (as well as jaundiced due to liver damage), due to the formation in his body of mixed H2Po, H2Te, and volatile organic compounds of Po(II) and Te(II). This strong garlicy odor is characteristic of ingestion or absorption of significant amounts of Te or Se, which occurred to hard-rock gold miners in Colorado who mined ore containing the rare mineral tellurite, (Au,Ag)2Te, which is also the chief source of Te.

However, none of the media reports about Col. Litvinenko's poisoning mentioned his becoming very smelly, nor is it mentioned in the Wikipedia articles about him, viz. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko_poisoning , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko_assassinat... ; see also http://toxipedia.org/display/toxipedia/Alexander+Litvinenko

watson.fawkes - 19-1-2010 at 08:07

Quote: Originally posted by JohnWW

It is quite common for microscopic amounts of highly radioactive elements to be mixed in this way with macroscopic amounts of homologous elements as a "carrier", to bulk them up.

A bit of web searching seems to indicate that Pb is a common carrier for polonium. If so, I'd guess for poisoning it would be used as lead acetate, soluble and sweet to the taste. Added to tea it wouldn't be an immediate tip-off.

JohnWW - 19-1-2010 at 17:16

Quote: Originally posted by Jdurg

All I know is that I just came back from a business trip to London and I'm hoping that I didn't unwillingly add a new element to my collection!

No, you definitely would not want to have polonium-210 in your polonies, served at the same London hotel where the poisoning occurred, despite both being named after Poland!

manimal - 21-1-2010 at 18:16

In the 60s, the CIA initiated a scheme to sprinkle thallium-laced powder in Fidel Castro's boots in order to make his hair fall out, embarassing him in the public's eyes. Alongside plans to slip him LSD and provide him with an exploding cigar, it was one in a long list of comical stunts to assassinate and/or discredit Castro.