Sciencemadness Discussion Board - I'm about to take the plunge and incorporate...

I'm about to take the plunge and incorporate...

evil_lurker - 27-9-2006 at 16:43

I'm tired of having to worry about being put on "lists" and getting raided by the police/dea/whoever.

I'm sick of my family giving me grief about rumors of me "running a meth lab" and trying to explain basic chemical experiments... people hear the name of a chemical with a freaking "methyl" group in it and they get worked up.

Trying to find suppliers and getting hung up by sales reps for not being a business is very frustrating.

I want the freedom to do something that I enjoy and be able to tell everyone (except my customers) to kiss my ass while making money in the process.

So I've decided to start up my own company. It ain't gonna be easy. I'll have to get incorporated, establish lines of credit, get warehouse and storage space, build a website, and then perhaps then can I get hooked up with the "good" companies that will sell raw chemicals without ripping you a new one.

Wish me luck.

chemoleo - 27-9-2006 at 16:48

And what are you going to sell precisely?

12AX7 - 27-9-2006 at 17:18

Synergy?

evil_lurker - 27-9-2006 at 18:40

Quote:

Originally posted by chemoleo
And what are you going to sell precisely?

I'll be the first to admit that I don't have much of a clue as to what I'm doing nor all the pitfalls and liabilty that I will be exposed to (hence the incorporation).

My goal is to start off by purchasing in bulk and repackaging the more common lab chemicals such as acids, caustics, solvents, and other "tame" things that can be shipped ORM-D.

Eventually I want to work my way up the food chain and act as a reseller for any non-DEA List I chemical that can be shipped via common carrier.

I'd also like to synthesize and resell ready made grignard reagents and other organometallic compounds.

Blind Angel - 27-9-2006 at 21:51

Way to go man, keep on the legal side though (I know this remark is not necessary, but better be safe than sorry). Have you though of a name? The good part is that you can make that and still have a full time job, using the website to take order and send pakage at nigh. Wish you luck.

not_important - 28-9-2006 at 00:42

While this can help with sales agents, it most likely isn't much help with getting on lists and whatnot, otherwise the phone books would be full of listings for Meth Cooks, Inc.

The problem with sales and supply companies is that in some cases they simply don't like bothering with small amounts, they're set up to deal with larger consumers.

Something that is likely to cause you headaches is the local legal requirements such as zoning restrictions, hazardous materials rules and documentation, permits, and so on. A friend in the US told me about their family's picture framing business, where they were told they had to fill out reports on the hazardous materials used by their business (a pint can of solvent and a half dozen small cans of wood stain).

So before spending the time and money on incorporating, read up on zoning laws to make sure you can do what you want to do from where you want to do it. Find out what licences you will need, does the fire department want to know about you, that sort of thing.

You may wish to start out with materials that have little restrictions on them, such as soap making supplies (except for the lye). This gives you a business with a target market in the general public (after a fashion). Branch out from there, citric and sulfamic acids for cleaning and rust removal and so on. Then add more lab like things with a home science theme. You'll be able to pick up some of the supplies you want, for running youre own quality control lab for your business 8-)

chromium - 28-9-2006 at 03:35

Quote:

Originally posted by not_important
The problem with sales and supply companies is that in some cases they simply don't like bothering with small amounts, they're set up to deal with larger consumers.

This is a problem indeed. Its quite common practice (at least in Europe) that customers who want to buy small quantities are just ignored even if there is no any other reason to ignore them.

I woneder if this is even legal to do so - especially as this is usually done without advertising what exactly the criteria are (if owner of supermarket would try to use similar practice and sell only to those who seem most profitable then this would be considered an outrage).

Anyway, in non-OTC areas such practice is widespread - not only in case of chemicals and glassware but with electronic componets and many other things as well.

I know quite well some people who have small firms. Availability of certain supplyes is very important if they evaluate new business plans and like us, hobbysts, they do use lot of time to find supplyer who has good price and wants to deal with them. There are cases when guite promising business plan is dropped because certain supplyers are not interested in delaing with you and those who are interested have very high prices.

If police or other firms try do get some idea of legality of your business they make rough estimate by how well your business is integrated into general business world. How much customers do you have, are they respected, do you buy things that have questionable connection with your field and so on. If answers to these questions do not give rise to suspicion then you can be quite happy. If not then you may be even more in focus than hobbists are.

quicksilver - 28-9-2006 at 06:49

Quote:

If police or other firms try do get some idea of legality of your business they make rough estimate by how well your business is integrated into general business world. How much customers do you have, are they respected, do you buy things that have questionable connection with your field and so on. If answers to these questions do not give rise to suspicion then you can be quite happy. If not then you may be even more in focus than hobbists are.

This is some VERY good advise. There has been a book on the market for YEARS called SOURCES that describes methods for meth-cooks to get materials and that is one of the standard methods. There is no real need to incorporate. A simple business licience and bank account is really all you need. It's no big deal. but if you're thinking about NOT being on any list; forget it. You will be. That's just life in this day and age. But that shouldn't discourage you because being on a list doesn't mean anything if you don't do anything wrong!
If anyone has ever bought anything from a pyro supplier....that person is on a list (I would bet on it)...but that doesn't mean that someone is going to raid their home! I have belonged to all sorts of rocket clubs and pyro clubs through out the years; I damn well know I'm on a list. but I imagine that they have investigated me and found me to be a harmless old fart, or I would have had visits a very long time ago.

joeflsts - 28-9-2006 at 07:01

Quote:

Originally posted by quicksilver

Quote:

Very good post. Being on a list is one thing, matching analytical criteria is another. The people that crunch these lists could care less about a buyer of compounds in hobby volumes. When these volumes greatly increase and start to add up (with other purchases) to material for drugs or exposives they will start to take notice.

Joe

not_important - 28-9-2006 at 07:36

When you get on a list from buying pyro supplies, say, part of what will raise flags is the combination of what you bought and how much of it. Dribs and drabs of perchlorate over many years isn't going to draw attention, a lot in a short time will.

An advantage of having a business that is reselling, and reselling materials outside of the 'chemicals of interest', is that traffic may dilute the impact of occasional purchases of chemicals more likely to invite visits. You might be a meth cook or terroist bomber, but if you handle a lot of other chemicals then the odds of you being one go down (unless you hang out with the wrong sort of people)

You'll want to have 'legitimate' uses or customers for a lot of the common chemicals, to avoid frequent inspections of your business. In Donnell R. Christian's "Forensic Investigation of Clandestine Laboratories" there is a list of chemicals where such as acetic acid, ammonium chloride, ethyl acetate, hydrogen peroxide, iodine, potasium iodide (!?!), sodium nitrate, and others are marked as "having no legitimate home or hobby use". Coming up with kits for the hobby market - think home schooling - that use some of those chemicals, along with a number of 'approved' ones, would be good thing.

Now, I know of several mainstream hobbies that use some of those chemicals, and those hobbies frequently grow into small businesses. Potters may use nitrates, home brewers and small time makers of hot sauce and other foodstuffs use H2O2, and so on. Targeting local folk involved in those hobbies, especially if there is no existing local supplier, might be helpful if you wanted to obtain some for yourself as well; plus you do them a service as well.

Note that Austrialians already are banned from knowing about iodine and its compounds, Canadians will soon be kept from anything stronger than 3% H2O2, in Texas you must register lab glassware (when testubes are outlawed only outlaws will have testubes). The number of things that gets you on lists grows longer, unless you're a large business you will find yourself watched increasingly closely if you touch anything on a list.

ethan_c - 28-9-2006 at 07:48

Don't forget to apply the 'buy in bulk and repackage' thing to pure metals and elements, if you're comfortable with that

! It would be awesome to have a reasonably priced place to buy hobby amounts of stuff like the alkali metals where they aren't illegal or particularly watched, but most people just don't want to deal with them.

evil_lurker - 28-9-2006 at 10:32

Quote:

Originally posted by not_important
While this can help with sales agents, it most likely isn't much help with getting on lists and whatnot, otherwise the phone books would be full of listings for Meth Cooks, Inc.

The problem with sales and supply companies is that in some cases they simply don't like bothering with small amounts, they're set up to deal with larger consumers.

Thats true. One of the suppliers I'm looking into dealing with has a $400 minium order amount... the good news is they have their own trucks and do free deliveries.

Something that is likely to cause you headaches is the local legal requirements such as zoning restrictions, hazardous materials rules and documentation, permits, and so on. A friend in the US told me about their family's picture framing business, where they were told they had to fill out reports on the hazardous materials used by their business (a pint can of solvent and a half dozen small cans of wood stain).

So before spending the time and money on incorporating, read up on zoning laws to make sure you can do what you want to do from where you want to do it. Find out what licences you will need, does the fire department want to know about you, that sort of thing.

I'm lucky to live in a county that is mostly rural and up until about 2 years ago wasn't even zoned. I'll have to look into the zoning requirements but I don't think it should be too much of an issue as long as your not a beer joint or titty bar. The main thing is going to be chemical storage. Probably those 20 foot shipping containers will be my best bet.

You may wish to start out with materials that have little restrictions on them, such as soap making supplies (except for the lye). This gives you a business with a target market in the general public (after a fashion). Branch out from there, citric and sulfamic acids for cleaning and rust removal and so on. Then add more lab like things with a home science theme. You'll be able to pick up some of the supplies you want, for running youre own quality control lab for your business 8-)

AFAIK, there are no restrictions on lye in my state. I figure NaOH and KOH will be a big part of my business and I'll have it for sale in 50lb bags for the biodieselers in my area along with titration solution and sulfuric acid for esterfication. Those are hardly benign chemicals, but there ain't a place within 100 mile radius that I know of that sells KOH.

YT2095 - 28-9-2006 at 11:37

EL: imo, I think you should do Plenty Plenty research on this before you jump into such an endevour.
Not withstanding that, I Do wish you ALLl the very Best of luck in whatever choice you arrive at!

Magpie - 28-9-2006 at 13:00

I 2nd YT2095's thoughts. I would make sure I had a good business model, i.e., one that will make money for you. Also I would check with similar businesses, e.g., United Nuclear, etc, and find out what special problems they may be having. Having a business opens you up to visits from all sorts of bureaucrats, like local officials, EPA, IRS, etc.
But I wish you all the luck in the world and would love to have you as a supplier.

evil_lurker - 28-9-2006 at 22:35

Right now the biggest threat is the Consumer Products Safety Commission which wants to stop the sale of all oxidizers in an effort to stop the spread of the second most hideous terrorist weapon of choice (behind the 747) in the united states, the m-80 firecracker.

I fully expect the the gov't to come a knockin.

Question is can they get inside my house, or are they limited to the facilities?

The_Davster - 29-9-2006 at 04:04

Just be sure to read the warrant. They do have one, don't they?

Or ore those even needed these days?

evil_lurker - 29-9-2006 at 12:17

Actually when your a business I don't think that law enforcement has to have a warrant, to a certain extent.

From what I understand, other governmental agencies such as the EPA, OSHA and the health department can waltz right in on a business and pretty much do what they want... as long as its during normal business hours.

If part of the business is incorporated into your household (say your records and computer system), then it could mean they could come right in and look around. Not that there is anything wrong with that, just who the hell wants the governement in your house?

This would be a good question for an attorney to answer.

Cooperating with LE is the absolute best thing that one can do, because if you don't, then they will get a warrant and come in and shut you down for a long time while they examine your records with a fine tooth comb.

The_Davster - 29-9-2006 at 15:11

Gotta agree about that.

I've taken a different route to stop worrying about legal issues and lists. Pretty much everyone who knows me, professors included, knows about my lab, and I am 'the person to go to' for ideas for demonstrations. The reactions of those I tell are surprisingly positive, mind you with some minor surprise, I think the idea just never dawned on some of them. I don't really worry much now, chances are I am on a bunch of lists, but I am not really hiding anything. And should I ever get into trouble, I have many respected chemistry professors who know what I do, and know that I am harmless, just, to quote one of them, 'over enthusiastic'.

not_important - 29-9-2006 at 21:07

@ rogue chemist - works good if you are in school. Most of my professors are likely deceased by now, the spirit world doesn't seem to offer much help in these matters.

The point on inspections of businesses is a good one. It might be wise to have _all_ of the business separate from your living quarters; that includes the lab space, which you want to be considered as part of the business. Makes it easy to set business hours, makes it easier to keep business expenses and records separate from household ones, which usually helps make the tax people happier.

evil_lurker - 30-9-2006 at 01:41

Its vital that ALL individuals, business or not separate their labs and chemicals from living quarters if they want their suppliers to stay in business.

Now I know why most chemical supply companies only sell to other companies... it opens them up to a lot of liability selling to individuals... This is regulated by the CPSC and Federal Hazardous Substances Act.

http://www.cpsc.gov/BUSINFO/regsumfhsa.pdf

According to that document, the FHSA has jurisdiction over "products that, during reasonably foreseeable purchase, storage, or use, may be brought into or around a place where people live. Products used or stored in a garage, shed, carport, or
other building that is part of the household are also covered.

The CPSC is there to enforce the act. The way I understand things, is by only selling only to other businesses, the chemical company can bypass the CPSC's jurisdiction.

Anyways, this is what happens to a chemical company that sells to individuals when the CPSC gets them into their sights:

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.06/chemistry.html

There but for the grace of . .

franklyn - 1-10-2006 at 12:16

Quote:

Originally posted by not_important
So before spending the time and money on incorporating , read up on zoning
laws to make sure you can do what you want to do from where you want to
do it. Find out what licences you will need, does the fire department want to
know about you, that sort of thing.

The largest obstacle to your " business " is local municipal administration.
Your local government will be the determinant wether or not you can proceed.
If your plan ( you do have a business plan ? ) is to use a " business " as a
cover for obtaining materials for your own use , you are headed down the road
to perdition. Whatever you do it must be self evident and apparent from your
inventory and paperwork which will be checked , closely. If you intend to make
explosives in small amounts or " investigational pharmaceuticals " this must
figure into the description of what your business does, perhaps as research and
development. It must make sense and you will be grilled to justify your " claim ".
Being evasive is like waving a red banner at a bull , you're just asking for it.
They do this for a living , you don't , everything about your business is their
business , never be cagey or give the impression you have anything to hide or
you will experience the awe and wonder of having a beach umbrella opened in
your rectum so they can walk right on through. Legal consultation may serve
you well on this point. Instead of thinking and acting adversative , welcome
involvement of law enforcement , you are both on the same side so to speak.
If you are to operate at all it will be by their assent that you do so.

Ambition just shows you don't have the good sense to be lazy. Hard work
never killed anybody , but why take the chance.

[Edited on 1-10-2006 by franklyn]

Waffles - 1-10-2006 at 12:42

Quote:

Originally posted by evil_lurker
Its vital that ALL individuals, business or not separate their labs and chemicals from living quarters if they want their suppliers to stay in business.

I didn't know that, although it certainly makes sense.
The pathology lab I used to work at- the batshit insane owner and his batshit insane son, even though they were both millionaires from working the medicare system, lived IN the laboratory itself, in an old office. On the other hand, the guy didn't give medical insurance, used the empty building next door as a tax shelter (under a fictitious name), openly discriminated by race, sex, and gender preference, and made us change the xylene and chloroform in the embedding machines without respirators for the way-way-upwards-of-OSHA-limit levels of fumes. So I guess living near the small staining lab is the least of his worries. Not that he has any worries, because one of my jobs was making sure the finances on his occasional $15,000 bribes to various congressmen were all in order

quicksilver - 2-10-2006 at 07:21

Most of the important isssues have been covered in this rather important (for many reasons) thread. However I would like to add a bit here because it's the one thing that hasn't been brought out in the open yet... "What will get you in trouble" & what won't. I have seen this directly; fortunatly it didn't have anything to do with me.
What the Gov't cares about gentelmen is if you buy chems or elements and then turn around and sell 'em! -- Take that to the bank. That's what the issue is. If you want to have a little lab; no one give's a rat's ass so long as you don't endanger the community or make stupid shit (read significant amounts of energetic materials or ANY drugs). but you buy chems and turn around and sell them.....expect a knock. You endanger the community; expect a knock.
If you keep a tidy house and have your act together, don't blow shit up making Gawd-awful noise....you'll be fine. The overwhelming amount of stuff that is discussed on this board is perfectly legal and no one cares. But Lord help you if you buy some chems and start selling them. That is EXACTLY what the gov't wants curbed. And I don't even have to mention what would happen if you sold some chlorate to a minor, do I? .....That's the whole deal in a nutshell.

franklyn - 3-10-2006 at 20:35

Selling chemicals is one thing , diverting chemicals is another.
Black market distribution is what is objectionable. The BATF
will come knocking if you buy firearms in quantity in one state
to then sell as a private individual in another. They will come
calling if you buy fireworks where it is a legal product , to be
sold where it is not. They will arrest you if you transport and
sell cigarettes without paying the due excise tax.

Quote:

Originally posted by quicksilver
If you want to have a little lab; no one give's a rat's ass so long as you don't endanger the community

It doesn't matter if you're a moonshiner in the Ozarks , if you distill
alchohol , wether or not it can be shown you sell it , you will be the
subject of their interest. Anyone can make an anonymous complaint
which will arouse the interest of authorities , so clandestine activity
and furtive behavior will only draw attention.

Quote:

Originally posted by quicksilver
The overwhelming amount of stuff that is discussed on this board is perfectly legal and no one cares

Discussion is legal , but for making , only if all necessary and
required licenses and cetifications are possessed. If no one
cared this thread would not be.

.

quicksilver - 4-10-2006 at 07:16

Agreed, but there is a matter of degree. If picric acid is to be compared with TATP the authorities are keenly awair that the former is a reagent used and sold commonly and generally not been utilized for nefarious purposes. But the later is rarely used outside a gateway to the 72 virgins and thus has a very different impact (no pun intended).
Selling & diverting is a subjective instance and I think most would agree that the law is enforced on a selective basis on many occation (if not all). We could break this down to what exactly is legal but again if the amount represents no threat to the community then the enforcement of the letter of the law would become subjective in that the authorities would have to have a good case to give to the State (or Federal Gov't).
No one wants to waste court time; least of all prosecutors. If the case looks like a hobbiest, smells like a hobbiest, then the weight of proof that the hobbiest is something more evil becomes too much work. However your points are well taken. Still when chems are re-sold Pandora's Box is opened just a crack.

Actually...discussion is NOT always legal. Some of the things discussed concerning energetic materials can be actually totally against the law to the felony degree! We live in a weird time....
Below is the 1st Ammendment / Senate Bill "bomb making issues" discussion in MS Word format.

[Edited on 4-10-2006 by quicksilver]

Attachment: SENATE-BILL-issues.zip (67kB)
This file has been downloaded 880 times

evil_lurker - 4-10-2006 at 16:23

The entire problem ain't what you can sell and to who. Thats pretty much defined in the DEA lists and CPSC list of banned chemicals.

I'm willing to sell anything that can be legally sold to anyone. However, the problem is that the government wants to hold the chemical suppliers accountable for the actions of their customers.

Thats what I'm going to have to do, figure out how to cover my ass.

quicksilver - 6-10-2006 at 20:08

Firearms manufacturers have had to deal with that one.....they had to get a herd of lawyers and sponser a few Bills in the House and Senate.
And while that type of scapegoating is deplorable, cheap, & spineless it seems to be the way of things. Just look at the CPSC issues with pyrotechnics; a perfect case-in-point. :mad:

vulture - 24-10-2006 at 12:58

Quote:

I'm willing to sell anything that can be legally sold to anyone. However, the problem is that the government wants to hold the chemical suppliers accountable for the actions of their customers.

Can't that be covered by an end user license agreement (EULA)? The buyer waives his right to complain against you if the chemical is used outside the scope described in the EULA? Software companies do this all the time. Even my Acros catalogue has a similar selling condition.