Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Anyone else interestead in extracting chemicals from plant material?

Anyone else interestead in extracting chemicals from plant material?

NEMO-Chemistry - 9-6-2016 at 04:54

I was wondering if anyone else enjoys chemicals from plant and natural materials, there dosnt seem to be much interest in this area. I know its not exactly cutting edge or makes big bangs, and it dosnt involve a great deal of skill, but does anyone else enjoy this aspect of chemistry?

My interest is in the extraction and then i would like to separate out via TLC to see how many compounds i had managed to extract.

ficolas - 9-6-2016 at 05:45

What the... I created a post 20min after this one about the same thing...
I started writing t before this one was posted, because I did something in the middle of posting it, so it seems that we both though about posting basically the same thing at the same moment...
If somebody could please merge both posts?

NEMO-Chemistry - 9-6-2016 at 05:54

LOl I have replied to your post in the other section, i have uploaded a couple of papers for you, i will try and find some of the papers i downloaded to try the extractions in them

NEMO-Chemistry - 9-6-2016 at 05:57

Lutin looks interesting, the paper details super critical extraction which i dont intend to do, but i think the paper is useful anyway.

Attachment: Lutein_Different methods of preparation.pdf (2.4MB)
This file has been downloaded 527 times

NEMO-Chemistry - 9-6-2016 at 06:06

I found a copy of a different version of the modern herbal i have, but it should give you a good idea of what some common plants contain. you can download it here
http://krishikosh.egranth.ac.in/bitstream/1/2027789/1/150721...

Great someone else is into this aspect of chemistry!! Is a bit boring doing stuff and not having someone to share the info with

. I guess its not a particularly interesting area for most, but its fairly cheap and easy so ticks my box's

.

Just looked at some of your other posts, i am not into any of the other stuff. If its ok with you i would rather just be involved with plant stuff

. some of your other posts are a bit 'out there' for me

no offense.

[Edited on 9-6-2016 by NEMO-Chemistry]

NEMO-Chemistry - 9-6-2016 at 06:11

ooops mis identified you! I just looked at the titles of threads you posted in, sorry my bad! I thought you were the author of some of the erm odd ones.

ficolas - 9-6-2016 at 06:21

Eugenol looks like the kind of chemical that would be under some DEA watchlist.
Getting chamber to perform supercritical CO2 extractions would be nice, I know AppliedScience made one in his channel with acrilic, and another one with piping (https://youtu.be/2wkgBPk0DWg) however its another of those things that im quite scared to do. Maybe ill try to build one, going to a metallic workshop, but they will probably look at me with strange faces when I explain what I want, and what I want to do with it.

Ill have a look at the papers you posted later when I have more time, they see interesting.

What do you mean with "out there" D: The only stuff I have been interested in doing is making beautiful crystals and extracting stuff from plants, making crystals doesnt seem crazy. (Unless you dont mean crazy with out there, not entirelly sure if that is the meaning either, im not a native english speaker)

Edit oh wait the next post explains why you said out there

[Edited on 9-6-2016 by ficolas]

[Edited on 9-6-2016 by ficolas]

NEMO-Chemistry - 9-6-2016 at 06:28

Quote: Originally posted by ficolas

Eugenol looks like the kind of chemical that would be under some DEA watchlist.
Getting chamber to perform supercritical CO2 extractions would be nice, I know AppliedScience made one in his channel with acrilic, and another one with piping (https://youtu.be/2wkgBPk0DWg) however its another of those things that im quite scared to do. Maybe ill try to build one, going to a metallic workshop, but they will probably look at me with strange faces when I explain what I want, and what I want to do with it.

Ill have a look at the papers you posted later when I have more time, they see interesting.

What do you mean with "out there" D: The only stuff I have been interested in doing is making beautiful crystals and extracting stuff from plants, making crystals doesnt seem crazy. (Unless you dont mean crazy with out there, not entirelly sure if that is the meaning either, im not a native english speaker)

[Edited on 9-6-2016 by ficolas]

No sorry i appologize, i mistook you for the author of some of the more 'strange' threads you had posted in, after reading a couple of your replies i realized you were not the odd one

. My mistake

The modern herbal link i posted is a good one, i didnt think of the DEA as i am in the UK, its a shame spices and herbs mixed with a solvent suddenly become something you can be locked up for!

What i was actually looking for was chemicals from plants i could get crystals from, such as menthol and eugenol. I like crystals but wanted some more uncommon ones as opposed to copper sulphate etc.

[Edited on 9-6-2016 by NEMO-Chemistry]

NEMO-Chemistry - 9-6-2016 at 06:31

Wow a non native speaker! seriously i would have never known, your English is exceptional.

NitreRat - 9-6-2016 at 06:39

...ummm... am I missing something here?

NEMO-Chemistry - 9-6-2016 at 06:51

Quote: Originally posted by NitreRat

...ummm... am I missing something here?

I dont know? I think the thread makes sense if you read it?? It may possibly help if you read a thread in general chemistry started by ficolus.

But apart from that the question was simply to see who liked this aspect of chemistry.

this might help you understand some of the comments in this thread.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=66476

[Edited on 9-6-2016 by NEMO-Chemistry]

NitreRat - 9-6-2016 at 06:54

Sorry, my mistake. I didn't see ficolas' posts so I thought it was a whole thread of you talking to yourself. Now I feel super dumb.

[Edited on 6/9/2016 by NitreRat]

NEMO-Chemistry - 9-6-2016 at 08:02

Quote: Originally posted by NitreRat

Sorry, my mistake. I didn't see ficolas' posts so I thought it was a whole thread of you talking to yourself. Now I feel super dumb.

[Edited on 6/9/2016 by NitreRat]

Thats ok, i guess without the link to the original thread that prompted ficoas response, it does seem a bit odd! It feels like i am talking to myself at times anyway

.

Nothing to feel dumb about!! trust me no one does dumb as much as i do

Daffodile - 9-6-2016 at 08:23

Some stuff I did and am doing; Okay so Iodine from seaweed is HARD. I tried that, it smelled. Nitrates from compost aren't hard, but you get low yields, and it requires lots of patience. I only got a fraction of a gram of Nitrate from a pound of compost crap.

Currently doing menthol from mint. The yields are LOW.

Next I'll be doing Oxalic acid from skunk cabbage, and Salicylic acid from Willow bark.

Ps; the mint leaves have this wierd tendancy to turn brown and start breaking down after only a few hours in the solvent.

[Edited on 9-6-2016 by Daffodile]

ficolas - 9-6-2016 at 09:09

Quote:

The modern herbal link i posted is a good one, i didnt think of the DEA as i am in the UK, its a shame spices and herbs mixed with a solvent suddenly become something you can be locked up for!

I dont usually think about the DEA either, but its usually what people talk about when refering to the legality of a substance. And I dont really know if eugenol is really in a watchlist, I just think it could be used as a precursor to MDMA just for the looks of it, I dont know that much about this side of chemistry

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry

Wow a non native speaker! seriously i would have never known, your English is exceptional.

Thanks!

Im spanish, but I have been learning english since I was like 5, and I mess arround the english side of the internet much more than in the spanish side, since it usually has way more information.

Quote: Originally posted by Daffodile

Some stuff I did and am doing; Okay so Iodine from seaweed is HARD. I tried that, it smelled. Nitrates from compost aren't hard, but you get low yields, and it requires lots of patience. I only got a fraction of a gram of Nitrate from a pound of compost crap.

Currently doing menthol from mint. The yields are LOW.

Next I'll be doing Oxalic acid from skunk cabbage, and Salicylic acid from Willow bark.

Ps; the mint leaves have this wierd tendancy to turn brown and start breaking down after only a few hours in the solvent.

I have arround 150kg of turkey poo that has been laying arround for arround 2 years, I should be able to extract nitrates from there, I'll try to do a big batch in a metal bucket, however I dont know how I will boil a whole bucket of poo... Ok yeah maybe not that of a good idea to do it in a big scale.
The oxalic acid and salicylig acid sound nice, however I dont have access to any of those plants.

aga - 9-6-2016 at 09:23

Interesting.

NEMO-Chemistry - 9-6-2016 at 09:25

Quote: Originally posted by Daffodile

I have been wondering about iodine from seaweed. I know its normally burnt, but i was wondering if it was dried a fair bit if adding conc sulphuric too it to carbonize and then heat it?? wash the acid off and heat, then maybe sublime the iodine.......
Having read it now i have typed it, it dosnt seem such a good idea.

NEMO-Chemistry - 9-6-2016 at 09:27

The modern herbal link again
http://krishikosh.egranth.ac.in/bitstream/1/2027789/1/150721...

Some good ideas in there i might try. My mint is still drying, some went moldy as my home made desiccator had a leak!

NEMO-Chemistry - 9-6-2016 at 09:37

Page 77 of the link,Apricot kernals, here is an extract from the text.

"
Constituents.
Apricot kernels yield by ex-pression 40 to 50 percent. of a fixed oil,similar to that which occurs in the sweet almond and in the peach kernel, consisting chiefly of Olein, with a small proportion of the Glyceride of Linolic acid, and commonly sold as Peach Kernel oil. From the cake is distilled, by digestion with alcohol, an essential oil (Ol.
Amygdce Essent.Pers.) which contains a colourless, crystalline glucoside, Amygdalin, and is chemically identical with that of the bitter almond. The essential oil is used in confectionery and as a culinary flavouring. "

phlogiston - 9-6-2016 at 10:21

"Cody's lab" youtube channel has a nice video where he isolates iodine from seaweed.

I have tried it also last summer and even though I got a species of seaweed that is supposed to be relatively high in iodine (fucus vesiculosus), I got a tiny yield. Cody must have been really lucky with the weeds he collected, or his procedure was far more efficient than mine.
I dried a few kg of seaweed in the sun, burned it, leached the ashes with water, concentrated the leachate by boiling it down to saturation, then cooled with ice and added concentrated sulphuric acid and hydrogen peroxide. It yielded a visible amount, but it must have been a few mg at most. Just enough to have a visible (and olfactory) confirmation of having made a little iodine, but not a useful amount.

NEMO-Chemistry - 9-6-2016 at 10:45

From some of the reading i have done it seems time of year plays a part. In the UK this seems to be June, so i better get down to the beach!! Not sure a car full of seaweed will go down well though

RogueRose - 9-6-2016 at 11:23

Since it is planting season does anyone have any suggestions on what would be advantageous to get in the ground now? I still have 100-120 days of prime growing season, possibly 150 depending on the weather this year. Lots of prime garden space and exceptional soil.

I'd like to try some of the "medicinal's" but here they are not yet legal.

I'd love to get some extracts for soaps possibly methanol or mint extract but don't know what the best mint is to plant. Capsacium is also something that would be fun - anyone know the best pepper for this?

I'm wondering about some plants from the Nightshade family like dauntra, Jimson's weed, Angle Trumpet, etc - they all have some interesting alkaloids. Anyone know some good info on this?

I also remember something about Salvia divinorum and Foxglove as having some extractable alkaloids, both of which could possibly be dangerous if used inappropriately.

Fennel and nutmeg may also be of interest if trying to extract some things.

Scalebar - 9-6-2016 at 11:46

Try sugarbeet! It's actually quite difficult to get a good clean sucrose from it at home but it also has betaine.

Anyone tried quinine from the bark? I do fancy making my own tonic.

ficolas - 9-6-2016 at 12:26

Quote:

Capsacium is also something that would be fun - anyone know the best pepper for this?

Carolina reapers have the guiness world record in the most spicy pepper, so probably that one. However from a softer pepper like cayenes, you can also get a nice extract. I used vodka and cayenes to do it in food grade, and it was pretty cool, it made foods spicy without adding flavour. I ordered some pepper seeds from ebay, and now I have arround 10 carolina reaper plants (Arrond 25 seeds got me 20something plats, wow) a bhut joloka (I mispelled that for sure, 25 seeds 1 plant) and cayenes, so when they grow ill try with the carolina reapers to see if I get a better purity, or just a bigger amount.

What about aromatic plants? Like lavender, rosemary, etc.

Nutmeg... uhh. It is said that in big dosis, its a psychoactive drug, that between his effects there are allucinations, and severe paranoia, and a big dose is like 2 whole nuts. Probably legal to concentrate, because who would want to be high on that shit.

And angle trumpets contains scopolamine hydrobromide, a drug used in rapes, because basically, people do whatever they are told to when very high on this substance. There is an angel trumpet in my garden, but there is no way im extracting stuff from that plant for obvious legal reasons. I think other nightshade plants also have this compound, and belladone too, not sure about this thought.

Quinine from sugarbeet seems interesting even more if done food grade

[Edited on 9-6-2016 by ficolas]

NEMO-Chemistry - 9-6-2016 at 23:14

some pepper papers, i have some better ones.......somewhere!

Attachment: phpeJINYh (339kB)
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Attachment: peps.pdf (364kB)
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NEMO-Chemistry - 9-6-2016 at 23:17

Rosemary and Thyme etc contain Thymol and carocrol, these are used in beekeeping for killing off Varroa. I cant remember what the herbal says about them now.

Chem Rage - 10-6-2016 at 16:08

Count me in. I grow medicinal and aromatic plants for the very purpose of extracting compounds from them. Plants are great chemical manufacturers! They can perform complex enzyme-mediated multistep biosyntheses. Quite remarkable, especially when you take into account things like stereochemistry.

NEMO-Chemistry - 11-6-2016 at 03:13

Thought this maybe of interest.

It compares the efficacy of hot and cold extractions from different common spices, no great but might be worth a read to some. At the moment i am looking around at various papers to see what i can find that relates to what i already have access too

.

I will add more as i find them.

I have also found alot on microwave extractions, but i will post a question regarding that in the techno chem section

Attachment: properies of different spice extractions.pdf (808kB)
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[Edited on 11-6-2016 by NEMO-Chemistry]

NEMO-Chemistry - 13-6-2016 at 13:04

Three days in the desiccator with sodium hydroxide pellets as desiccator, the mint has a grey mold on and the chili peppers (birds eye type) are getting black spots on. Desiccator not in contact with material, The hydroxide has nearly all gone to liquid. WHAT am i doing wrong?

I think i need a proper glass desiccator? maybe the plastic box i use is too big or leaks, real PITA as the mint isnt a huge patch and takes a week or two to produce enough to crop again.

Suggestions?

ficolas - 13-6-2016 at 13:54

I wouldnt use a dessicator, using an oven or drying on the sun seems like a better idea, since peppers (and a bit less mint) have way too much water in them, and you dont need them completely out of water, you just need them kinda dry.
I'd put them in the oven, at low temps (200C or even less, dont know if they decompose, but they evaporate at arround that tempeeature) since they are edibles. However now that you have had them near sodium hydroxide, I wouldnt put them in the oven, but that may be just because I have a too extric separation between my chemicals and stuff that im going to eat.

[Edited on 13-6-2016 by ficolas]

NEMO-Chemistry - 13-6-2016 at 14:17

Quote: Originally posted by ficolas

I wouldnt use a dessicator, using an oven or drying on the sun seems like a better idea, since peppers (and a bit less mint) have way too much water in them, and you dont need them completely out of water, you just need them kinda dry.
I'd put them in the oven, at low temps (200C or even less, dont know if they decompose, but they evaporate at arround that tempeeature) since they are edibles. However now that you have had them near sodium hydroxide, I wouldnt put them in the oven, but that may be just because I have a too extric separation between my chemicals and stuff that im going to eat.

[Edited on 13-6-2016 by ficolas]

I slung them out anyway. Chillis are easy to get from the supermarket, although it seems when i go there to get scotch bonnet ones they only have birds eye, when i go for birds eye ones they only have scotch bonnet!

Mint seems to grow quickly but it dosnt seems anywhere near as invasive as i have read!! Cant do much chemistry in the week days, so will try again and hopefully be able to try and extract the mint at the weekend.

I have an old microwave now so might try and dry them with that

, i am hoping to convert it at the weekend for microwave extractions, loads of papers on microwave extractions. Most seem to suggest yields are higher when done with microwave, i cant argue with them but it dosnt seem logical to me.

Also got hold of some fresh ginger so that is another. At the moment i am simply chopping up plant matter and leaving to soak for a few days in various solvents. I will start the distillation/extractions at the weekend.

The reason i wanted it dry was so i could compare yields between dry and fresh, some papers suggest better results with dry material, also i would like to see if chlorophyll is less of a problem when material is dry.

[Edited on 13-6-2016 by NEMO-Chemistry]

Paddywhacker - 15-6-2016 at 03:56

For a good practical book on extracting natural materials from plants see "Natural Products, A Laboratory Guide, Raphael Ikan, 2nd edition" on bittorrent.

NEMO-Chemistry - 15-6-2016 at 05:11

Quote: Originally posted by Paddywhacker

For a good practical book on extracting natural materials from plants see "Natural Products, A Laboratory Guide, Raphael Ikan, 2nd edition" on bittorrent.

Thanks. I am working on the microwave, I was unlucky in as much as our old one (the one I got) has a fan in. I need to figure out how to get a hole in the top or maybe the side and still get the glass to fit. I am going to disconnect the fan.

Mainly weekend is my time for this stuff, but we break up for 6 weeks in 2 weeks time so i have a block of time then.

Cabalaba - 15-6-2016 at 12:06

Extractions were what drew me in to chemistry almost a decade ago. I wanted to catalogue all the most abundant chemicals in any given plant. When I had a few rotavaps, I'd soxhlet wiith pet ether, ethyl acetate, water, and ethanol. When some rota vaps broke, I began usex Chemicals that would easily evaporate (acetone, methanol, hexane and skipped water). On the polar and water fractions I would even run an A-B. I kept 1-2my samples, which I still have today.

I had two problems with TLC, a)older plates sometimes crumbled and b) even with a 25cm plate, it looked like a child smeared a crayon up the plate.

So then I thought, I'd use a column then run a plate on each alloquat. Then man the spot on the column and run it through my Friend's labs IR spec.
Ultimate my dissertation in a completely unrelated subject needed to be done.

I love the idea of cataloguing all the chemicals in a plant but it's expensive, time consuming, and unless you have a GC/MS , doing it as a hobbit would take a life time.

Mad props if you can do it but from my experience, there are better hobbies, one with tangible outcomes
I don't want to discourage q but just tell you my story.
Best of luck.

[Edited on 15-6-2016 by Cabalaba]

NEMO-Chemistry - 15-6-2016 at 12:50

I am more after targeting ones that make crystals or things of interest, not so much 'every ' chem in the plant. But having said if i can get a number of compounds in small amounts from plant stuff then i am happy enough.

Plants are free (pretty much) is kind of fun and when it comes to compounds with crystals its a bit different, also at the moment i am sticking to the safe side of things until i have better equipment and skills.