Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Permanent magnetic motor

Permanent magnetic motor

AdamAlden - 18-3-2016 at 16:11

I know... Crazy right? I've been thinking about this for years! Electricity from an object that just sits there and requires no fuel? I'm contemplating submitting a patent for this design and yeah... I really hate bothering you guys but I need the opinion of professional scientists. Does anyone out there think this design will even work?

The copper blocks on the outside of the magnet ring make a stator which would generate electricity.

Only person to say anything told me it looks like a rotary engine and that the only problem he sees would be maintaining the correct timing.

The timing is maintained by using the correct diameter gear at the bottom of the motor. It is approximately half the diameter of the outer ring and has half the amount of teeth which are the same size as the teeth on the ring. The diameter of the teeth and number of teeth are what seem to matter.

The bottom gear is connected to one of the piston gears. It is connected on its z axis which causes it to rotate at the rate as the smaller piston gear. For each revolution of the piston gear the connecting gear will do the same.

I'm sure this is not the most efficient way to do it but its a start and all I can come up with without experimenting. I have never attempted to build it.

The inside magnets are colored green and can be either positive or negatively charged but all of them need to be the same charge for this example.

Animation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGuRW_rf_bk

[Edited on 19-3-2016 by AdamAlden]

Metacelsus - 18-3-2016 at 16:35

I can't read your mind. The diagram needs more description to clarify how exactly it would work.

My initial reaction is severe skepticism. It looks like it might work if you supply mechanical energy to it by turning the inner part, but I don't see how you can get "electricity from an object that just sits there and requires no fuel."

AdamAlden - 18-3-2016 at 17:01

I tried to animate it if you guys care to see.

j_sum1 - 18-3-2016 at 17:23

Short answer -- if it has no energy input then it does nothing.

There is nothing magic about magnets. They merely apply a force. It is not a source of energy unless you are somehow moving the magnets or changing the magnetic field. That requires energy input.

Do a thought experiment. Replace the magnets with a finger pushing. If your design works without you having to move the finger then it is feasible. If not, then you have a dead duck.

AdamAlden - 18-3-2016 at 17:45

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

Short answer -- if it has no energy input then it does nothing.

There is nothing magic about magnets. They merely apply a force. It is not a source of energy unless you are somehow moving the magnets or changing the magnetic field. That requires energy input.

Do a thought experiment. Replace the magnets with a finger pushing. If your design works without you having to move the finger then it is feasible. If not, then you have a dead duck.

How disappointing. Thank you.

If it wont work on its own what are the chances it will generate more electricity than it consumes.

[Edited on 19-3-2016 by AdamAlden]

j_sum1 - 18-3-2016 at 17:55

Quote: Originally posted by AdamAlden

If it wont work on its own what are the chances it will generate more electricity than it consumes.

Zero.

Welcome to the first law of thermodynamics. There aint no such thing as a free lunch.

And the second law is that you don't get to break even. There is always some sauce left on the plate. Once you have paid for your lunch there is always a bit that you have paid for that you cannot use.

AdamAlden - 18-3-2016 at 18:16

ok wow what a sick thought...

I looked at thermodynamics wiki and started breaking it down.

first heat is not a magnetic field. but then there is the rule nothing is free. there must be fuel. ultimately it comes down to mass and or gravity being the fuel (I'm not sure). magnetic fields are a magical form of energy similar to gravity. Gravity is a form of energy and the fuel is the huge body of matter.

Without gravity a magnetic motor would not be possible or in other words without mass a magnetic motor cannot generate electricity. The more mass the more energy produced.

I'm probably wording these thoughts wrong. I rarely get a chance to think out loud.

Thanks a lot. I'll just take it easy and hope to actually try building it one day to see if it works and hope no one patents it lol so sad

[Edited on 19-3-2016 by AdamAlden]

The more I look at it and think about it the more it looks like it will work. Probably just the way I think but it looks kinda like how objects move in space. The gears are like planets or the sun and the outer ring is the asteroid belt. its crazy!

[Edited on 19-3-2016 by AdamAlden]

j_sum1 - 18-3-2016 at 18:52

A magnetic field is not a source of energy. All it is is a zone where certain objects experience a force.
Ditto a gravitational field.

Energy is the product of force and distance. You never get it from nothing. (In physics, energy and work are the the same thing.)

The concept is always subtle and counterintuitive. Always.

Hold a heavy rock. You think you are doing work. You think you are expending energy to suspend it in space. Nope. You could replace all your efforts with an inanimate table. It is only when you attempt to lift the rock further that you are doing work. Your table can't do that.

Thermodynamics is very like money transactions. Every time money is transferred from one person to another, one account increases in value and the other account decreases. You never gain money by simply passing it back and forth between two people. Energy conservation is exactly the same. To get your spinning disc or motor or whatever to rotate you need to provide energy from somewhere.

Now, you might load it with a certain amount of potential energy when you assemble it -- such as pulling back on a spring or positioning objects in a magnetic field. Once the spring recoils or the magnet pulls objects closer, that energy is used up and you might get a little movement. To get useful energy (such as electricity generation or winching up a weight against gravity) you have to continually supply energy to the system.

In your example you have some kind of object spinning which you fancy will keep spinning because of the magnets. You might start it spinning but it will eventually slow down depending on how much friction is in the system.
Then you fancy harnessing this spinning to produce electricity. If you try to put an electrical generator on it, that will act as an effective brake and your disc stops.

I invite you to spend a couple of hours looking up youtube clips that debunk perpetual motion machines. They will all say the same thing that I am saying.

As for "heat" -- it is pretty much the default form of energy. When a system loses energy to friction or electrical resistance or other forms of loss, that energy is in the form of heat. It can be recovered if you have a difference in temperature somewhere. Hot rocks can heat water to steam to drive a turbine for example. There are clever devices that can exploit quite small temperature differences. This is in the discussion of thermodynamics but does not help you at all in the operation of your device.

Edit
Objects in space experience very little friction. That is why they stay moving.
They do tend to move in curved paths because they experience the force of gravity. But again this is no free lunch. As they fall towards an object of large mass they lose gravitational energy and gain kinetic energy (ie, speed to). But when they slingshot past, they get further out from the gravitational field. They gain gravitational energy and they lose kinetic energy (ie, slow down.) No net change in energy.

[Edited on 19-3-2016 by j_sum1]

j_sum1 - 18-3-2016 at 19:18

Watch this one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b8ZsFszE8I

Your design is not too dissimilar to the unbalanced wheel. You are merely laying your device horizontally rather than vertically and using an arrangement of magnetic fields instead of a gravitational field.

AdamAlden - 18-3-2016 at 20:52

I found this one and watched all of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3lX-dKKVpo

I've spent so much time believing in magnetic motors. It took a lot for me to reach this point. I've been like a wild animal backed into a corner over this design.

[Edited on 19-3-2016 by AdamAlden]