Sciencemadness Discussion Board - r/chemistry Mercilessly Crushes Sciencemadness Member

r/chemistry Mercilessly Crushes Sciencemadness Member

Texium - 25-2-2016 at 17:29

"I'm a High School Student, Here's a Laboratory I Built in My Basement."

A couple days ago, Zephyr posted a photo gallery of his new lab space (originally posted on SM) on the chemistry subreddit. Almost immediately, he was accused of being a troll and a fake, and there were also many insults hurled at the amateur community in general by supposed professional chemists.

It is true that it would be good for him to rearrange his reagent storage so that it follows the more important chemical storage guidelines (following all of them is virtually impossible for an amateur, as I'm sure most of you would agree). I agree on that point. However, I think that the rest of the the criticism that he received in that reddit thread was completely unwarranted.

So much of it is based purely on speculation and unfamiliarity with the hobby. For example, why do they assume the fume hood doesn't work just because he got a good deal on it? There's no way he'd install a non-working hood and still try to use it. They act like he has no common sense. Also, the accusations that his chemicals are stolen because they are from Sigma are ridiculous. Everyone here knows that you can find all kinds of great deals on nice chemicals like that, whether from eBay, Craigslist, surplus sales or sellers like mario840.

I can personally vouch for Zephyr. I have met him in person and have seen his old lab space. I know he has been working on building his collection of chemicals and equipment for years, and that he had a lot of help from family and friends with building his new lab, installing the fume hood and everything. I've seen pictures throughout the process posted in the Skype group.

The main reason that this response he received bothers me so much is that I know that he is a kind and modest person and was not posting the pictures to get attention or cause a stir. He just wanted to share something that he worked very hard on and was proud of with people he thought would appreciate it. It disgusts me to see the response he received.

To make matters worse, somebody started a parody thread to further mock him and continue the flaming, and it was reffered to r/SubredditDrama where it continued to get (mostly negative) attention. I wanted to post this here to make sure that I'm not going insane, because reading through such a brutal attack against home chemistry has really disheartened me.

Etaoin Shrdlu - 25-2-2016 at 18:00

Yeah, I saw that. It made me sad. The superiority circlejerk gets ridiculous in there.

The guy who cried about not wearing safety glasses while taking pictures. Just...painful.

"I can't believe someone gave him oxidizers." Unbelievably stuck-up.

I think they are secretly insecure that amateurs are capable of doing things they needed a degree to comprehend.

EDIT: Also, loved how the whole thread was screeching about how amateurish everything was, then someone got suspicious about the nice reagents and they started jerking about how the whole lab was too professional to be a real amateur project. Amazing.

[Edited on 2-26-2016 by Etaoin Shrdlu]

cyanureeves - 25-2-2016 at 18:21

particularly hard if you met the guy in person and he got clobbered like that by your fellow members.

blogfast25 - 25-2-2016 at 18:35

With all due respect to Zephyr but you have to be very naive to post on Reddit and believe you won't get burnt.

Reddit is troll/flamer paradise, almost as bad a 4chan/8chan.

gdflp - 25-2-2016 at 18:43

Quite frankly this is a shame. It is a trend that many of us are aware of, especially those of us who have formal chemistry education as well as practical experience with home chemistry, that a paranoia around chemical safety is increasing with each passing year in academic institutions.

Many high school and even undergraduate labs are being reduced to microscale experiments, experiments which are modified to increase their safety at the cost of decreasing their usefulness, or that are downright replaced with virtual labs, offering no practical experience whatsoever.

Looking around /r/chemistry, it appears that is is mainly a place for questions asked by college students or other relatively short threads which lead nowhere. This is honestly one of the reasons why I enjoy Sciencemadness so much, long running threads such as the potassium, phosphorus, and cyanide threads(though admittedly being somewhat bloated) offer scores of useful information on their topic.

The entire Prepublication subforum is a testament to the advanced chemistry which amateurs can accomplish while circumventing a variety of issues such as limited budgets, restricted access to various chemicals and facilities, and misinformation of the public.

I personally believe that a competent amateur with a good understanding of chemistry, adherence to reasonable safety precautions, and proper waste disposal where necessary can safely carry out a wide variety of advanced experiments with minimal risk to themselves or others around them.

Proper understanding of the true risks of handling various chemicals, and avoiding bringing emotion into it, can provide a reasonable method of determining chemical safety in an unbiased method. Getting an intimate knowledge of the true reactivity of various compounds through practical experience can also be greatly beneficial to overall lab safety; and no amount of reading is a viable substitute for this due to the drastic difference between reading a safety bulletin and actually understanding the true sensitivity of each individual compound.

Some of the comments on those reddit threads illustrate this, anyone with a decent amount of hands on lab experience will realize how utterly ridiculous and over generalized a statement such as the following is "I can't believe someone gave him oxidizers."

Personally I feel that Sciencemadness is by far the most advanced home chemistry forum, in English, on the internet. I add that last qualifier due to the quite remarkable threads on other sites such as versuchschemie.de and lambdasyn.org, both of which I can unfortunately only browse through Google Translate as I don't speak German.

Great - 25-2-2016 at 18:45

His lab is actually dope AF.

About only reason I'd see for the hate is people assuming that a parent or relative paid for or built everything, and that zephyr took credit for all the work. That happening would potentially be the pretentious shit that society sees to much of.

Bringing me to my next point. Maybe they think he's a pretentious know it all, and needs a slap from real society to realize it. I see those kids in my everyday life, and I'm generally sure a roast on reddit would give them the reality check they deserve.

In any case, the guy's lab is great, and it looks like he has spent a lot of time working and studying to understand everything that goes on down there. I hope he wasn't discouraged and continues to do what he likes.

EDIT: I'm reading the comments and I can't help notice all the points about the reagents (sigma). I've gotten reagents before from analysis labs, by receiving what they call 'expired'. This includes Sodium Hydroxide, Citric Acid, Potassium Hydroxide, Potassium Oxalate, and Sodium Nitrite. It takes a few strings to do, but really goes to show that these ACS grade reagents are certainly not limited to the professional world.

[Edited on 26-2-2016 by Great]

j_sum1 - 25-2-2016 at 19:06

This is sad.

I like the fact that we are supportive and accommodating around here. Of course we don't stand for trolling or unsubstantiated bullshit. But if something is reasonable we don't attack the person. "Trust but verify."

zephyr, if you are reading this -- and I expect that you will at some stage, don't let the reddit experience get to you. The flames will die down and few will remember. As it stands, your new lab looks gorgeous. I can't wait until it is up and running.

Of course if you felt that you needed some vindication or validation, you could always start posting some synths on YT. I'd view them. (And learn a bunch in the process I am sure.)

BromicAcid - 25-2-2016 at 19:49

Sad but not unexpected, a much less supportive environment than we have here.

wg48 - 25-2-2016 at 19:56

Sadly that is very typical behaviour of immature groups. Usually started by one of the top dogs and then backed up by the followers. Apparently while they are picking on their victim they are content because they are not being picked on. Probably the anonymity and remoteness of the internet makes it worse than face to face.

I have not been in this forum very long but it does seem to be relatively well behaved with the majority of member more interested in the chemistry/science and not nasty social behaviour.

Great - 25-2-2016 at 20:04

Quote: Originally posted by wg48

Sadly that is very typical behaviour of immature groups. Usually started by one of the top dogs and then backed up by the followers. Apparently while they are picking on their victim they are content because they are not being picked on. Probably the anonymity and remoteness of the internet makes it worse than face to face.

I have not been in this forum very long but it does seem to be relatively well behaved with the majority of member more interested in the chemistry/science and not nasty social behaviour.

The forum is very forgiving, UNLESS you post an ad for nike shoes, posing as a bot. I know that one from experience, trust me.

AvBaeyer - 25-2-2016 at 20:25

I will admit that I am not familiar with this reddit site. The absolute vehemence of the comments is way beyond the pale. It's truly sad to see someone attacked with such uncalled for meanness. Most of the comments looked like they were written by some half-brained first year grad student in a fourth rate university. If you have been around long enough you easily recognize the type.

I have had the privilege of some correspondence with zephyr who I come to think is quite a sharp individual. I wish him all the best and hope that he lets this incident fade into the forgettable past.

The lesson to be learned here is to be discrete about what you post and where you post it.

AvB

Lol

SmellNoEvil - 25-2-2016 at 23:25

I guess this is how the best legitimate home lab looks like:

https://www.reddit.com/r/chemistry/comments/47n0qb/im_a_uni_...

I am not the author of the thread.
If whoever was banned from Reddit for posting pictures of their lab is reading this, at least they can be comfortable knowing that the lab that a high school student build is superior to the one posted by someone claiming to be a university student.

You have to love the "Ban me" at the bottom of the imgur album.

[Edited on 26-2-2016 by SmellNoEvil]

NedsHead - 26-2-2016 at 00:39

Quote: Originally posted by SmellNoEvil

at least they can be comfortable knowing that the lab that a high school student build is superior to the one posted by someone claiming to be a university student.

it's Tdep's lab, lmao

diddi - 26-2-2016 at 02:29

Quote: Originally posted by SmellNoEvil

at least they can be comfortable knowing that the lab that a high school student build is superior to the one posted by someone claiming to be a university student.

with respect, I suggest you be more encouraging of other forum members, particularly as you are clearly quite unqualified (with 5 posts to your name) and have little knowledge of who is whom.

the uni student you are talking about does indeed attend a capital city university in Australia, and is a friend of mine.

He is a regular contributor on the SM forum and proposed and implemented our 2015 Secret Santa which was a great success. He is quite knowledgeable in his area of interest (EM) and posts here for the benefit of others. He also runs his own chemistry youtube channel.

He is very active and well liked by everyone on the Skype SM groups (which are by invitation only) and I am sure zephyr regards him with high esteem.

and on the subject of labs. the state of ones lab (or its physical surroundings may be affected by ones personal situation. I don't even have a lab, but I can still do good chemistry when I collect my thousands of dollars of chemicals, elements and glassware from their respective cupboards and set up the work area in my garage. if I show a photo of my garage it looks like a tip site, but that is my choice.

trolls are unpleasant people, so stop being one

NedsHead - 26-2-2016 at 03:07

I guess he didn't smell the shit he was about to step in

Etaoin Shrdlu - 26-2-2016 at 11:02

Quote: Originally posted by SmellNoEvil

https://www.reddit.com/r/chemistry/comments/47n0qb/im_a_uni_...

I see they feel bad.

Metacelsus - 26-2-2016 at 15:08

Things like this are the main reason I don't have a Reddit account. Don't let the haters get to you, Zephyr.

TheAlchemistPirate - 26-2-2016 at 15:09

Look at this gold:

"Synthetic Chemists above all, really fucking hate amateur Synthetic Chemists..."- A "Synthetic Chemist". I'm glad Zephyr's lab had an unbiased review.

"Getting called out and ridiculed for lying/making stuff up is so common it should be in all Synthetic Chemistry job descriptions."- This probably is this poster's "job" description.

"3 years full time at University level will make you just about able to suck at doing Synthesis, and when I say suck at Synthesis, I mean barely competent"- What a shame. It took this poor guy at least three years to be barely competent with chemistry. At least he can judge with experience.

" no safety glasses on whilst taking photos" This shocked me

. I have been carelessly handling a dangerous photographic device without the necessary safety precautions for years!

"Christ, anybody who's done work experience in a regulated lab would suffer a heart attack knowing this place exists."-I hope this guy had medical insurance.

Zephyr should take all these accusations of being a fake as a compliment. You have equipment "that no student can get a hold of" and are clearly a professional just trolling according to them.

-Edited due to wily quotation marks-

[Edited on 26-2-2016 by TheAlchemistPirate]

Rocksinboxes - 26-2-2016 at 15:33

If I recall correctly, we only had to wear googles when chemistry was being performed in class lab. It's an awesome lab. Don't let anyone get you down!

-Edited For Punctuation-

[Edited on 26-2-2016 by Rocksinboxes]

blogfast25 - 26-2-2016 at 15:58

Quote: Originally posted by TheAlchemistPirate

"Christ, anybody who's done work experience in a regulated lab would suffer a heart attack knowing this place exists."-I hope this guy had medical insurance.

Dear G-d. Very few professional chemists, 'regulated lab' or not, would think that.

j_sum1 - 26-2-2016 at 16:01

One thing that has been overlooked is that the space is not complete yet. He is still fitting it out. The sink is yet to be done for example. Why anyone even mentions safety glasses under the circumstances is quite beyond me.

I have not been able to read much of the reddit -- access is prohibited at work and I did not persevere much with my phone. There have been so many edits and deletions that it is just about as meaningless as alphabet soup.

Mean and meaningless is not really a potent combination. I would not take any of this to heart, Zephyr. I also would not be hanging around on reddit gain either.

aga - 26-2-2016 at 16:20

@Zephyr
Awesome lab.

The Fume hood looks very Pro. I want one like that but bigger so i can sleep in it.

@/r/chemwotever
Complete bunch of arseholes with the imagination of a turd and the manners of another turd that the first turd rejected, saying the second turd had the manners of a turd.

It was a brave experiment to try to engage with that website's population.

Sadly this kind of reaction happens when you offer a group of people something for free.

Call it Human 'Chemistry' and move on.

Lab: did very good indeed.

Analyse and engage with wankers : did bad.

Oh ! Be sure you say 'Safety' a lot so you sound credible if yo want to make $.

Magpie - 26-2-2016 at 16:25

Quote: Originally posted by TheAlchemistPirate

"Synthetic Chemists above all, really fucking hate amateur Synthetic Chemists..."- A "Synthetic Chemist".

The priesthood feels threatened - a common theme throughout history.

arkoma - 26-2-2016 at 16:36

I've done business with Zephyr twice---quite pleasant both times, and both orders included lagniappe. Watch out for the h8rs Zeph, they WILL call the cops. Its happened to me. (Wheres yer meth lab, buddy? Happened in Nevada as old hands here outa remember)

blogfast25 - 26-2-2016 at 16:46

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie

The priesthood feels threatened - a common theme throughout history.

How do we know any of these w*nkers are real chemists? I like to think they're not!

aga - 26-2-2016 at 17:00

Having read the thread in Zeph posted, the responses were :-

(nice way to put it) Unhelpful.

(the way it was said) bunch of wannabe-super-chemists with nothing else to do apart from take the piss out of people the year below them.

It is a shame, seeing as Zeph's post sparked such a feeding-frenzy.

The site must be Starving and on the verge of extinction.

aga - 26-2-2016 at 17:23

What 'Priesthood' ?

All i saw when reviewing that thread on their site was Bishops' Heads spouting random garbage.

Some were saying useful stuff, the majority utter elitist crap.

'Safety is Everything' kind of crap.

All Safety is an Illusion (wear the gas mask anyway)

James Ikanov - 26-2-2016 at 17:34

I'm struggling to comprehend that there are really people out there that believe jars or bottles may actually randomly explode without prompting at any point and blind you... Is this actually a thing people are concerned with in a lab setting? ._.

Etaoin Shrdlu - 26-2-2016 at 18:39

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

Quote: Originally posted by TheAlchemistPirate

"Christ, anybody who's done work experience in a regulated lab would suffer a heart attack knowing this place exists."-I hope this guy had medical insurance.

Dear G-d. Very few professional chemists, 'regulated lab' or not, would think that.

They're mostly sheltered academics. And a lot are college students with little experience I'd wager. There are threads where some of them try to convince people that recording data electronically isn't a thing in industry by spouting paper notebook guidelines straight the hell out of a Gen Chem curriculum. (Dead giveaway? They think first-to-invent is still a thing in the US patent system.)

EDIT: That's not to say they're all bad or the subreddit is all bad. It isn't. Kind of slow and hands-offy though.

[Edited on 2-27-2016 by Etaoin Shrdlu]

reddit chemists suck - 26-2-2016 at 19:37

The caliber of chemists on reddit is very poor. They freak out about silly things all the time. Any time someone finds picric acid that is dry the sub cumulatively wets itself, demonstrating its shitty knowledge of the field as anyone who has worked with this material knows it is very safe when pure. They even freaked out once over a AQUEOUS solution of picric acid. Mention HF: "RIP OP lolz" The depths of their inexperience knows no bounds.

Those who came out against pinkhippo/Zephyr's lab come from a few different groups of people.

Type 0. The straight up jealous: Zephyr, your lab is awesome. They want and cannot believe someone could be so awesome.

Type 1. Career chemists with no ambitions to greatness This type chose chemistry as a profession, not out of an innate passion, but just because it was the most tolerable class in school or university. The home chemist, with a passion for the field beyond the mundane 9-5 threatens his mediocrity. Someone with this much passion will obviously outperform the "I am only doing this for work" person and threatens the mediocre worker. The mediocre worker lashes out against home chemistry in an attempt to bring the superior chemist down to the level of the mediocre. Their mediocrity is further exemplified by constant bitching about the job market. Perhaps if they were not so disgustingly average they would be able to compete.

Type 2. The indoctrinated industrial chemist. These type of chemists have lived their professional lives surrounded by the crushing inefficiency of American chemical industry. They have been conditioned to not think for themselves as a result of overzealous safety regulations. Their only chemical supplier has been aldrich. They are confused when someone has reagents, as their limited experience from only ever sourcing from aldrich means they have universalized aldrich's rules as if they are a global rule. The concept of a chemical supplier selling to a non-business is outside of their reality. This type of shitty reddit chemist can also be identified by their misunderstanding of regulations. Their throats are so sore from deep thrusts by OSHA's cock that they do not understand that regulations governing businesses and private individuals are completely different and that as long as waste is disposed of properly and you are not cooking drugs, no laws are being broken by doing chemistry at home.

Type 3. The risk adverse projecting their incompetence This group of shitty reddit chemists likely are only in the field as a result of "No Child Left Behind". They are the ones that drop their glassware, spill things regularly, and somehow manage to set water on fire. They know an interest with the potential for danger would likely not end well for them, but their ego transforms "this is too unsafe for me" into "this is too unsafe for everyone". Wave to the short bus, everyone.

Type 4. The scared threatened by the competent This group is distinguished from the previous only by a single stage in the fabrication of their delusion that home chemistry is inherently unsafe. Instead of fear being the sole driver, fear drives envy, which drives dislike of home chemistry as their rationalization mechanism. Like the previous group, their competency is low, however deep down they wish they could be awesome like Garage Chemist for his home SO3 production, or Bromic acid for having the nuts to distill white P. They are jealous they cannot, and they realize that others can, and like the first group, realize their mediocrity is threatened by someone with superior technique. Their ego does not accept this, and transmutes into blaming home chemistry as being wrong, when again, the problem is their own shortcomings.. Its kinda like the dude who has no game and dates a fat chick while backwards rationalizing that hot chicks are bad people. Deep down you know he wants to tap that

Type 5. "I fucking love chemistry". Anyone on facebook is familiar with "I fucking love science" In essence, this is pop culture sound bites of "science" in front of a picture Neil Degrasse Tyson or space. /r/chemistry exemplifies this. For example, memes are upvoted more highly than actual science. Look at sciencemadness, what are some of the longest threads here? Preparations of useful chemicals like hydrazine or phosphorus. At reddit? A picture of a tiny beaker The thought process of this type of redditor is analogous to the stripper that likes "I fucking love science" on facebook, where "maybe if I like this I can pretend I am a smart" becomes "If I want to pretend I am a chemist, I better like something...oh shit, I don't understand any real science posts here, better upvote this picture of a tiny beaker, it is so cute! I am such a scientist...lol"

So /r/chemistry, we get that you guys suck. Stop by here and learn some real chemistry.

[Edited on 27-2-2016 by reddit chemists suck]

S.C. Wack - 27-2-2016 at 06:53

This reddit thingy can't be all bad having produced a few well said fine lines in this thread and general warm fuzziness to go along with Sat. morning tea. Didn't click links because why would I care what these people think, so...this thread is all I know about this and it seems like a fine thread that would not otherwise exist.

The Volatile Chemist - 27-2-2016 at 10:56

Yech, made me sick. It started off bad, then went downhill as everyone joined the bandwagon.
But really, is Zephyr in high-school now, or is he now in college?

That makes me want to do something about it, but I've seen that amateur chemists don't really unite under anything, even an insult such as this.

That tiny beaker insult was hilarious

Best said with pauses in a condescending voice: And what of /r/Chemistry? A picture - of a tiny - beaker. Hilarious...

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

Quote: Originally posted by TheAlchemistPirate

"Christ, anybody who's done work experience in a regulated lab would suffer a heart attack knowing this place exists."-I hope this guy had medical insurance.

Dear G-d. Very few professional chemists, 'regulated lab' or not, would think that.

No no no, see, he doesn't need health insurance - he's not an "anybody who's done work experience in a regulated lab"

reddit chemists suck - 27-2-2016 at 12:17

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist

That makes me want to do something about it, but I've seen that amateur chemists don't really unite under anything, even an insult such as this.

/r/chemistry exists so "Mitch" can get affiliate commissions from the (really shitty popsci) books posted on the side....This may be against reddit TOS.

Alternatively we invade and post real chemistry. Maybe they have a heart attack from the cockslap of reality in their face.

TheAlchemistPirate - 27-2-2016 at 14:25

Quote: Originally posted by reddit chemists suck

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist

That makes me want to do something about it, but I've seen that amateur chemists don't really unite under anything, even an insult such as this.

I'll make a post regarding the synthesis of sodium acetate from sodium bicarbonate and acetic acid. I won't wear safety goggles while taking photos, and have a bottle of pure potassium carbonate nearby from a chemical supplier. There won't be multiple exits to evacuate in case of a fire either. They will probably try to sic the police on me because I have a diluted heroin precursor.

Also, I did mean that sarcastically TheVolatileChemist

j_sum1 - 27-2-2016 at 15:43

Don't forget to have young children in the lab. Or worse still, do it in the kitchen where you prepare food.

reddit chemists suck - 27-2-2016 at 15:48

I am thinking of doing some "art photography" of me doing chemistry.

Yeah, I will be wearing safety glasses. (safety first guys)

That is all I will be wearing.

HeYBrO - 27-2-2016 at 22:32

reddit seems to be one of those places where the filth of the internet congregate. Look at their latest thread https://www.reddit.com/r/chemistry/comments/47eae3/rchemistr... yay! lets talk safety! look how responsible and progressive we are!! In the first paragraph they assert the seriousness and realness of their professional identity scornfully highlighting the dangers of "Home Chemistry" because of how much controversy seeing a home lab has brought them. Honestly, they're a bunch of pretentious try hards who second guess every second thought they have in the fear that they will not be good enough in the eyes of other reddit k3wls. I could go on but the existence of this thread is poignant enough.

Keep doing your thing Zeph.

[Edited on 28-2-2016 by HeYBrO]

j_sum1 - 27-2-2016 at 22:52

Quote: Originally posted by reddit chemists suck

I am thinking of doing some "art photography" of me doing chemistry.

Yeah, I will be wearing safety glasses. (safety first guys)

That is all I will be wearing.

Dangerous. Very dangerous. You might not go blind but all of your viewers will.

Mabus - 28-2-2016 at 14:54

Uugh, reddit is new 4chan I see.
On the reddit subforum I noticed that woelen's white phosphorus distillation topic has barely been viewed, and I find it interesting that people would rather gang up on some person presenting his lab, rather than dogpile the former with comments like say, "OMG, WP", "Will you use it to bomb Vietnam?", "Can you make meth from it?" and other low-brain activity comments such persons would post. (This is merely an observation, nothing more)

aga - 28-2-2016 at 15:28

It is pretty clear now what SM members think of dreddit (typo, but i like it) and how much we like Pinkhippo/Zephyr (hope i got that connection right).

Time to get back to some Chemistry and avoid a forum war.

JJay - 28-2-2016 at 15:57

On the brighter side of things, I noticed several relatively inexpensive gas chromatographs and rotovaps on *bay.

The Volatile Chemist - 13-3-2016 at 15:31

Haha, aga, I've always wanted to instil hatred on competing amachem forums...
I ignore Reddit and 4Chan, but they do have a bit of humor that many other serious forums lack (probably for good reason).

Cou - 13-3-2016 at 20:50

/r/chemistry is notoriously against amateur and home chemistry.

HeYBrO - 14-3-2016 at 00:47

Someone made a thread there asking why AC is always down voted and they said "because they don't know about safety." god damn i wonder what happens when they put vinegar on their chips along with SALT... OmG aLchol is a poison! panic! I'm doing home biochemistry by drinking! DANGERoUs!

Cou - 14-3-2016 at 12:23

Quote: Originally posted by HeYBrO

Someone made a thread there asking why AC is always down voted and they said "because they don't know about safety." god damn i wonder what happens when they put vinegar on their chips along with SALT... OmG aLchol is a poison! panic! I'm doing home biochemistry by drinking! DANGERoUs!

LOL I saw that thread too. 15% downvoted!