Sciencemadness Discussion Board

non PH controlled high yielding chlorate cell experiment

mysteriusbhoice - 2-2-2016 at 06:11

Im going to see if its possible to get a high yield out of a non ph controlled chlorate cell.

The idea is that adding a little NaCl will provide a sort of filler and when it gets converted to NaClO3 it will swap with the KClO3 and as the PH rises there will be no KOH because any forming KOH will exchange ions with forming NaClO3 leaving behind NaOH.

At the end i will know if it starts forming NaClO3 crystals because its cube shaped and less plate shaped also it is way more soluble in water so seperation later on is easy.

video part(1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-FwKO6tOoE

part(2) comming soon

Post below some info if you have either tried this before or your hypothesis on what you think will happen whether or not i will end up with expected results.

[Edited on 2-2-2016 by mysteriusbhoice]

Tsjerk - 2-2-2016 at 06:17

Chlorate has as good as none buffering capabilities. More than that; it will decompose in acidic conditions.

There is no difference between potassium and sodium in a solution, at least not in these conditions.

mysteriusbhoice - 2-2-2016 at 06:53

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
Chlorate has as good as none buffering capabilities. More than that; it will decompose in acidic conditions.

There is no difference between potassium and sodium in a solution, at least not in these conditions.

these aren't in acidic conditions and infact are in alkaline conditions because because some of the chlorine escapes and doesnt react with the NaOH and KOH being formed in the other electrode

btw im using CHLORIDE AS BUFFER NOT CHLORATE

[Edited on 2-2-2016 by mysteriusbhoice]

hissingnoise - 2-2-2016 at 07:50

A pH-controlled cell using NaCl will be more efficient and your anode will last longer . . .

mysteriusbhoice - 2-2-2016 at 08:48

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
A pH-controlled cell using NaCl will be more efficient and your anode will last longer . . .



as long as it will last awhile im good
i cannot find a ph meter from the garden store nor can i find pure HCl

Tsjerk - 2-2-2016 at 12:16

Chloride is as bad as a buffer as chlorate. Hydrochloric acid is a strong acid for a reason.

Caps lock is not necessary to make your point clear by the way.

hissingnoise - 2-2-2016 at 12:21

Not having HCl kinda limits your efforts, but if you have H2SO4 you can make HCl from NaCl . . .

aga - 2-2-2016 at 13:33

Nice to see some sort of experiment happening.

Given the Experimental nature of the cell, surely it would be best to run the experiment, collecting some actual Data, before claiming it works, or has high yields.

caPslOck is fINe so long as iT is repeatedLy prESSed , and on Completely rAndom keystroKes.


[Edited on 2-2-2016 by aga]

Fulmen - 3-2-2016 at 00:27

While all experiments are to be applauded, I think you should re-check your theory. The pH-issue isn't caused by KOH, NaOH will produce the same thing. The problem lies in loss of chlorine gas, and as this loss is higher at low pH a rise in pH is inevitable.

mysteriusbhoice - 3-2-2016 at 09:47

Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen  
While all experiments are to be applauded, I think you should re-check your theory. The pH-issue isn't caused by KOH, NaOH will produce the same thing. The problem lies in loss of chlorine gas, and as this loss is higher at low pH a rise in pH is inevitable.


from 6 days of running
starting material
300g of KCl
NaCl 600+ grams (filler)

end results of run

266 g KClO3 batch 1 room temp flame color(pinkish purple)
85 g KClO3 batch 2 0 deg flame color(slightly yellow)

351 final yield 71.18% yield

493.148 g quantitative yield

i predicted around 70%

ph control for the home setup is overrated tbh
lower ph = less chlorine absorbtion and more chlorine escaping the system
the ph will reach 10 and all chlorine will be absorbed

although adding a very tiny drop of acid will prevent the ph from rising to 11+ but make sure you inject it from the bottom not the top of the solution so the chlorine released will react with the surrounding NaOH

it does increase anode life but sacrifices yield greatly for the amateur
and in industrial setups they can capture that chlorine with a seperate tank of NaOH

besides the way my setup works is by using NaCl as a buffer electrolyte so i dont end up with free KOH or KCl (LOSS) at the end and only NaOH and unreacted NaCl as waste

Loss of yield caused by washings and some chlorate chunks flying/spilling due to clumsy hands

[Edited on 3-2-2016 by mysteriusbhoice]

mysteriusbhoice - 3-2-2016 at 09:56

Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen  
While all experiments are to be applauded, I think you should re-check your theory. The pH-issue isn't caused by KOH, NaOH will produce the same thing. The problem lies in loss of chlorine gas, and as this loss is higher at low pH a rise in pH is inevitable.


The problem with using Pure KCl as electrolyte isnt the PH its running the cell for too long due to low chloride levels at the end and poor yields

my experiment is to mix NaCl into it as a buffer and to improve current efficiecy

also i might add a little drop of H2SO4 every day using a tube that leads to the bottom of the cell on my next run

hissingnoise - 3-2-2016 at 11:42

Quote:
. . . also i might add a little drop of H2SO4 every day using a tube that leads to the bottom of the cell on my next run

WTF! Make the acid in situ, you mean . . . ???

FYI, sulphuric acid decomposes chlorates!

HCl is prepared by reacting NaCl with the acid and leading the gaseous HCl to water as shown here!

aga - 3-2-2016 at 14:45

It would be nice to be able to speak freely on topics such as these.

That is not the "New Improved SM Way" though, so i'll not say anything at all.

Did i just say that ? Damn.

mysteriusbhoice - 3-2-2016 at 18:32

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
Quote:
. . . also i might add a little drop of H2SO4 every day using a tube that leads to the bottom of the cell on my next run

WTF! Make the acid in situ, you mean . . . ???

FYI, sulphuric acid decomposes chlorates!

HCl is prepared by reacting NaCl with the acid and leading the gaseous HCl to water as shown here!



well i tested a solution of my cell liquor and put a tiny bit of chlorate at the bottom of the test container

i put a tiny bit H2SO4 near the bottom and guess what
it reacted with the surrounding liquor even before it touched the chlorate

and if its very dilluted it barely reacts with chlorate but strongly reacts with hypochlorite which is what i want

i tested that too by dilluting till it still reacts with hypochlorite considerable but not as much as chlorate

and there was an effervescence of chlorine

well chlorate cells dont rly need to run at ph 7 in home setups because we cant capture the escaping chlorine

at higher ph 10 the chlorine escapes in very small quantities
so adding just a drop of acid every day will be enough to prevent it from getting too high

that bubbler outside was water and at the end of the run NO HCl was produced and neither was HOCl produced from the escaping chlorine

well i just found out something cool
using the sodium bisulfate i made it with doesnt even react with the chlorate when mixed together 50/50 with hot water dropped into it

i guess il be using that!!

[Edited on 4-2-2016 by mysteriusbhoice]

hissingnoise - 4-2-2016 at 02:24

A fuller understanding of reactions occurring in the cell will make it easier . . .

Further reading!

mysteriusbhoice - 4-2-2016 at 20:04

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
A fuller understanding of reactions occurring in the cell will make it easier . . .

Further reading!



i couldnt be bothered with it tbh besides my cell temp is around 70 celsius

adding more electrolyte as the KClO3 is kicked out will keep the current efficincy pretty good

instead of controlling the ph im adding a filler electrolyte(NaCl) the whole point is to see how this will work

however if i do get a ph meter which i couldn't find yet i will infact work on a setup involving adding filler(NaCl) and a solution of sodium bisulfate which does not react with Chlorate

it will form HCl as it reacts with hypochlorite and chloride and now the filler suddenly becomes the acid since i cant even buy HCl in the store for some reason

[Edited on 5-2-2016 by mysteriusbhoice]

mysteriusbhoice - 6-2-2016 at 07:27

heres part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rT-5f4umK0
cleanup of the run

Deathunter88 - 6-2-2016 at 07:59

Quote: Originally posted by mysteriusbhoice  
Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
A fuller understanding of reactions occurring in the cell will make it easier . . .

Further reading!



i couldnt be bothered with it tbh besides my cell temp is around 70 celsius



Thats completely the wrong attitude! You should always be keen to learn especially since you started this thread proposing a non-PH controlled high yielding chlorate cell.

mysteriusbhoice - 11-2-2016 at 19:06

well if i get the materials to control the ph
ph meter
HCl
HCl dropper mechanism
then i will do it but so far im having trouble finding the ph meter

i read that thing and yea if ph is lower the hypochlorite will break down more readily with heat reducing run time