Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Cheapeat Fuel? campfire cooking

Yttrium2 - 25-8-2015 at 18:49

Long story short, I'm kind of on my own right now with some help from Mom.

I just made a trip to sports authority, and I saw 1/2 gallon, and even 1/3 gallon Coleman thermos' (is this " ' " needed ?) for around 8 bucks. (thinking I can use this as a miniature icechest, and get my ice for free at fast food restuarants)

First question is how much ice is ideal for a icechest?

Second question is how much ice is ideal to go into a beverage (so it stays cold the longesT while maximizing the most soda amount of soda)/(too little ice, will melt and dilute and ruin the beverage)

Third question - what is the cheapest source of campfuel? Ethyl alcohol sterno supposedly lasts 4.5 hours, and costs $6.99, before tax. Small propane bottles cost $7 bucks for a two pack and I'm unsure how long they last.

Would a small stove utilizing "solid fuels" be cheaper then a 2 burner grill attached to a typical sized propane bottle, or even a smaller propane bottle?

What fuel works best? There are several variables such as cost per container, amount of heat per container, and how long each container lasts (I may be forgetting certain variables, oversimplifying/over complexity ingredients the problem.

Any help would be beneficial to people in similar circumstances, backpackers, and campers alike!

Camroc37 - 25-8-2015 at 18:56

Wow, I don't know, but you are serious about saving money... The ice chest size really isn't a perfect thing, Just add enough ice to the container.

Zephyr - 25-8-2015 at 18:58

1. 1/4 full.
2. No ice if you are going to drink it soon and it is already chilled.
3. Cheapest is probably wood, if in the country. (also has the best taste imo)



[Edited on 8-26-2015 by Pinkhippo11]

Sulaiman - 26-8-2015 at 06:25

regarding fuel;

my first concern is carbon monoxide and dioxide poisoning as you may want indoor heating;

carbon dioxide is the normal product of combustion,
it is denser than air and not toxic,
but it does fill up lower areas displacing air = not enough oxygen to breathe = suffocation.

carbon monoxide is formed when fuel is not completely oxidised,
it is slightly less dense than air and TOXIC,
quite common in UK people in tents or caravans bring a charcoal BBQ in after cooking to warm the space up,
the charcoal smoulders slowly keeping you warm,
while making enough carbon monoxide to kill you.

so consider ventilation and NEVER burn fuel while you sleep.
....................................................................................
IF you have good ventilation or a chimney/flue then you could scavenge fuel;
wood, cardboard, paper etc.
they will probably contain preservatives and other additives that often form toxic fumes when burned.
....................................................................................
if you do not have a chimney/flue then I would use liquid (e.g. kerosene/paraffin oil) or gaseous (e.g. propane) hydrocarbons.
I guess maybe the 'best' is gas in a bottle because;
you can be sure of complete combustion so can use indoors,
and you can have a gas burner to cook on.
The initial cost is high,
bottle plus valve/regulator plus cooking burner (see if your mom can help?)
and look at the relative cost per kg (or lb.) of refills,
generally the larger the bottle (3kg, 9kg, 18kg here for example) the cheaper.
On the bright side, you will have a means of controlled cooking and safe heating.
you can even add a Bunsen burner and do chemistry !

try eBay or local re-use websites for cheap or free bottles, regulators, stoves etc.
.....................................
I do not know the relative cost of various fuels where you are,
obviously the cheapest is what you can scavenge,
you may find that a kerosene camp stove is cheapest to run (joules/$) if locally available.
============================================
regarding ice in drinks;
specific heat capacity of ice = 2.03 J/g.K = 1/2 that of water
thermal conductivity of ice << water, due mainly to convection currents
so most of the cooling comes from the latent heat of melting (334 kJ/kg)
so more cooling = more water.
...
much colder ice helps but I'm considering domestic freezers
...
so you have choices;
lots of cold ice briefly - before significant melting - then drink ... brain freeze.

or for economy,
just enough ice so that the drink is at the required temperature at the right time.

That's my habit anyway.







[Edited on 26-8-2015 by Sulaiman]

ave369 - 26-8-2015 at 06:33

What kind of stove are you using? If it's a non-pressurized, open burner stove, then only alcohol will work as fuel. It it's pressurized and pumped, then you should be using light hydrocarbon fuel such as Coleman, white gas, pet ether, gasoline etc.

If you don't have any stove yet, think what exactly you want. If you want the stove to be light, compact and easy to use, consider alcohol or gas. If you want your stove to be reliable and winterproof, use a pressure stove.

I'm using an old copper pressure stove, a Primus clone, running on kerosene. It works like a charm.

[Edited on 26-8-2015 by ave369]

aga - 26-8-2015 at 11:02

Simplest clean burning stove is either a Rocket Stove or a Dakota Fire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r66jjYdBmg8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlPSEfcz718

Good ventilation required as all fires consume lots of oxygen.

ave369 - 26-8-2015 at 12:34

aga, as far as I understood, the OP meant stoves with liquid or gaseous fuels, not wood stoves.

Addendum: for my old kerosene stove, one 500ml bottle of kerosene ($.5) is enough for a week-long camping trip.

[Edited on 26-8-2015 by ave369]

aga - 26-8-2015 at 13:42

I assumed that "Cheapeat Fuel?" meant "Cheapest Fuel" as in lowest cost.

Scrap wood in an urban environment or dry twigs and branches in the Better environment would both be free = $0.

Edit:
Quote: Originally posted by ave369  
Addendum: for my old kerosene stove, one 500ml bottle of kerosene ($.5) is enough for a week-long camping trip.

Not much cooking ?

[Edited on 26-8-2015 by aga]

Yttrium2 - 27-8-2015 at 11:42

Propane or sterno? Walmart has a folding stove kit for like 7 bucks and a low density cookware kit "mess kit"

I do have a dual burner propane kit that belonged to my father.

Will propane be cheaper than sterno/alcohol?

I'm guessing alcohol releases more heat when it burns since there are more C-H bonds? But propane can burn like a jet, somehow.

I could get a big bottle of propane, vs the little 2 for 7$ kind, this might be cheaper, but more cumbersome for cooking for myself.

Thimaking the 7 dollar folding stove at walmart, and some sternos, and the low density cook ware will work well together.

Can I refill sternos with rubbing alcohol or heet. To get a cheager sterno?

aga - 27-8-2015 at 12:43

Jesus H.

If you're on your ass, why spend anything ?

Scrap wood, dregs from fuel/oil cans, cardboard - stuff like that is Free.

You have Internet, probably on a Smartphone, so you're in, or close to Civilization, therefore primitive Survival skills are not really needed yet are they ?

What is this about ? I'm totally lost.

Perhaps more clarity about your situation would help get you better answers.

[Edited on 27-8-2015 by aga]

zed - 4-9-2015 at 12:35

Well, when I was a youngling, we sometimes made a cooker from a coffee can.

http://www.practicalsurvivor.com/hobostove

Generally, we supplied the heat via rolled up cardboard in a tuna fish can. The cardboard inserted, molten wax was poured onto it, and it was allowed to harden. The resultant "candle" could be reused until exhausted, and you could take a few of them with you.

http://traveltips.usatoday.com/make-coffee-can-camping-stove...

Those non-recycle-able, Paraffin impregnated cardboard boxes, used to ship produce, might work perfectly as fuel. Price? Zero!

[Edited on 4-9-2015 by zed]

Yttrium2 - 21-9-2015 at 14:22

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Jesus H.

If you're on your ass, why spend anything ?

Scrap wood, dregs from fuel/oil cans, cardboard - stuff like that is Free.

You have Internet, probably on a Smartphone, so you're in, or close to Civilization, therefore primitive Survival skills are not really needed yet are they ?

What is this about ? I'm totally lost.

Perhaps more clarity about your situation would help get you better answers.

[Edited on 27-8-2015 by aga]


You are getting me confused.

You are right, primitive survival skills are not entirely needed. This is why I'm trying to find a good fuel source. I'm not out in the open country, I'm in a suburb city type environment and I can't be burnin' wood. Perhaps I could in a coffee can, but id be looking quite ghetto in the walmart parking lot. (I've been looking ghetto anyways, might as well go all out,-to be frugal, economic, and smart) Plus I don't have a coffee canister. I have been buying dehydrated coffee. I got ebt coming in now so it's really been helping me save on going to the homeless shelter and back for meals. I have not really been keeping things on ice as much as I had inteded. My cookware gets dirty and I've been to lazy to try to clean it without running water. I don't have a large galvanized bucket of water, I have a small gallon of water that I paid for and use to drink. I can get free water at the gym, but anywhere else is likely to hastle me if I try to fill up a bucket or five gallons. Though I do get drinking water for free. I should use my gallon jug carefully and wash my dishes, i can get more water at the gym easily. Washing dishes with a gallon bottle of water is possible

I think I may resort to using wood, once I can make a trip to my mom's house and climb up into the rafters to retrieve the coffee percolator from dad's camp gear. Probably will taste much better than the instant coffee I've been buying. Might even be cheaper too.


I apologize for not being as frugal as I could be. Gathering wood will take energy, but it will be free of cost. I was worried about looking ghetto when I should have been worried about prices.
It will be possible for me to get a hobo stove going in the walmart parking lot, all I need is time. I feel like I fool now for getting sold on the idea of the sternos. Perhaps I can load the empty canisters with wood chips and get them going in my folding stove, or just throw a bunch of wood under the folding stove. Ahh I'll likely get a coffee canister. Forgive me for not taking your advise about the wood. Please! I didn't think things through very well. I'm so used to having a fire in a pit, and a screen grill over it. I'm not sure how long my little fire will last, if it'll be enough to cook with, or if it will produce noxious smoke.
I think I'll be okay so long as I'm not burning pallets. I'll probably use some sort of oak. I've never cooked in a coffee can before, I'm not sure if I should poke holes in the side for oxygen or what.

I'm still caught up on the problem of whats the cheaper fuel between sterno and propane, but, for now I should keep things simple and be as frugal as I possible can.

I'm just going to have to be brave and experiment to learn something new, in the back of my mind I was somehow doubting my ability to get a small fire sustaining to heat my meals.

I even have the hatchet, still, with me in the truck

Yttrium2 - 21-9-2015 at 14:29

Sorry for not listening carefully and thinking as quickly as I should have.

I do believe now that wood is the best option, and from this day forth I'm going be more mindful and frugal, and "primitive"

Yttrium2 - 21-9-2015 at 14:46

If I can't find the coffee percolator, I will use my ring stand, filters, and funnel. I can get the hot water for free.

Might even just drink the coffee with the grounds in it, not sure if this is possible or custom somewhere. It might all sink to the bottom, or it might mix In homogenously

[Edited on 21-9-2015 by Yttrium2]

WGTR - 21-9-2015 at 16:38

I remember a few things about burning wood from my experiments with a mesquite-fired furnace. I built this simple furnace using 4 fire bricks stacked on top of one another. It had a 2" hole drilled straight down, almost to the bottom, and then another 2" hole drilled in sideways at the bottom that joined the first hole. Broken chunks of mesquite charcoal where loaded into the central shaft, where they were supported on a ceramic grate.

I put a small ceramic crucible on top, and drilled a small hole in the brick on the side, up near the top of the furnace so that the gasses could escape. I put a small CPU fan over the end of the bottom shaft, to provide some gentle forced air through the charcoal. Once I got it started, it would run for about 15 minutes with mild forced air. That thing got hot enough to melt aluminum in the crucible. Without forced air, it would have run longer before before the fire went out.

The thing was, that there were a lot of ashes left over. When the charcoal was still warming up, it would pop furiously, blowing "fireflies" out the exhaust. During operation it would blow a continuous stream of ash out the side of the furnace. That small bit of charcoal left an impressive amount of ash on the ground afterwards, and the front porch had to be swept up and washed with a hose afterwards. Also, this thing put out a truckload of carbon monoxide. Once the furnace came up to temperature, it was possible to light the exhaust gasses. They would burn with a pale blue flame. I always wore goggles when looking down into the furnace, or loading more charcoal pieces.

Burning wood might be economical, but there is the "mess factor" to consider at the same time. I'd opt for electrical heating, if this is an option, somehow, somewhere.

What are you thinking of cooking, anyway? I enjoy fixing lentils and brown rice with olive oil. After rinsing and then soaking them for a few hours, they are boiled for one minute, and then cooked on low heat for 20-30 minutes. Pretty easy and cheap, cheap, cheap. I usually throw some salt, pepper, and some pre-cooked chicken into the mix, but one could survive on lentils and rice for a while if it was necessary. If you want the recipe, I'll post it.

cyanureeves - 21-9-2015 at 17:41

rhino propane bottle will cost about 17 - 20 bucks and goes a long way but still dont beat electrical stoves. i remember using the bathroom electricity at the state park for cooking when i was young and moving from town to town.i remember finding a kid poking my french fries with a stick while they were frying.the hood of my car was warm for a while but boy it get cold around 4:00 a.m. brother Yttrium2,this warm weather is on its way out and i hope you recover soon.

violet sin - 21-9-2015 at 23:09

large propane bottle -> http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-2000005062-5-Ft-High-Pressure-... -> your two burner stove... will last for a LONG time. I got 6 gallons of propane today for under 12$. granted you probably don't want to carry the big bottle all too often ( maybe not at all ), but it is quite economical. because around here, northern California, I see the disposable canisters of propane for between 5$ to 6.99$ for the single or two pack depending on where you go. this towns not the cheapest. also the blue rhino is hella more expensive here.... like 52$ to get a tank full w/o a trade in or 28-36$ for a bottle trade in. where as a larger tank, if you own it, is 12$ or so like I just mentioned @ a gas station( I went to a 76)

regardless what happens, don't forget to smile as often as you can. it's not always a sunny day that life hands you, but it is what you make of it that matters :)

_______________________________________
additionally I remembered
you can use the melted water from your ice chest to wash hands or dishes. you pay for it any way, just catch the ice water from the bottom spigot in something. we used that to wash hands and lunch time dishes with while camping. makes the drinking water last a lot longer


[Edited on 22-9-2015 by violet sin]

macckone - 22-9-2015 at 11:57

Parafin is about $3. You can probably grab a handful of circulars for paper.
You will obviously need something to melt the first batch of parafin, where a can
of sterno might be good. But a bottle of 91% rubbing alcohol might be better
if you can get a can to make a stove with. Use another can to melt the parafin
in. While melting the parafin, roll the paper up and tie it with some string then
dip it in the parafin. Let it cool and then dip it again. Instant paper sterno like stuff.
You can also buy a bottle of alcohol and mix it with the parafin to make a sterno
like candle. Tea candles are cheap for a bag $10/dz. They won't heat much
but are fine for one cup of coffee. First chance get a heavy coat and light weight
jacket from one of the aid agencies. If you see a pair of snow pants
in a thrift store, then snag it. I don't know where you are but it will be critical.

Another key tip for coffee. Make a tea bag out of a coffee filter and put the coffee
in it. Then you can buy the cheap coffee and it taste better than instant.

Tea is cheaper than coffee, you may want to switch beverages.
You have EBT so it sounds like you have some food.

If you have clothing and you are sleeping in your car then you have
all of the basics. Don't worry about how you look. Better to be ghetto
looking than frozen in a back alley. As for warmth you are better off
getting warm stuff from a shelter or aid agency than trying to keep
a space warm. Good gloves, layered coats and snow pants. Don't forget
socks and decent shoes. They will give you the stuff but you have to find
the place and ask.

If you see a low temp sleeping bag then get it.
It will save your life if the weather gets cold enough.

macckone - 22-9-2015 at 12:24

ps. for survival camping in the city an alcohol burner is cheapest to operate.
Alcohol at walmart is literally less than a dollar. You don't want
isopropyl in your food but it is fine in your fire. Candles may be cheaper
but don't heat as well. Propane and sterno are just burning money.

violet sin - 22-9-2015 at 16:12

a large bottle of propane is far from wasting money. that is kinda silly. you could get 3 blocks of parafin at your price for 6 gallons of propane.. which of those two burn cleaner, will last far longer, and is the norm for camping/cooking? the answer is obvious. a 5 gal propane bottle could be bought at a yardsale or craigs list for ~15$. you fill it for a couple bucks and it lasts for a long time. I use the things all the time with the "Mr. Heater" single burner head to dry my drywall mud faster. it's hot, burns all the way and will last at least 2 full 8 hr shifts of drying. that is 16hrs of straight cooking. if you have the catalytic ceramic heater it is safe for indoors... they are pricy though.

alcohol burns rather quickly. under a buck for 946 ml of alcohol( bigger one), compared to 1.68$(here) for a gallon of propane... also parafin for canning here is 6$ a block, elsewhere its aobut 3$/ea. but still how does the burn time on a whole block of wax compare to over a gallon of propane. it's the standard for camping, rv, hunting and barbeques because it is versatile and affordable.

just my 2cents for what it's worth. I have been and will be again, (untill I get my buck) camping and hunting. just this last weekend, we use propane. disposable green bottles are a rip off. get the 5 gal or 10 gal size.. just don't smoke in a car that you want to store it :P

I guess the size of your car would matter, what city you are in, what part of which country. I'm assuming USA from the Walmart comment.

didn't want to go here, but I lived out of a firebird for a while, working construction full time... I did have houses I could go to for showers and some meals, but not all the time.


edited because I got propane price too high, was lower :)

[Edited on 23-9-2015 by violet sin]

edited again, yay 666'th post :)

[Edited on 23-9-2015 by violet sin]

macckone - 22-9-2015 at 20:13

The propane is about $20 for 15 lbs.
Paraffin is used to make the paper into a better burning product.
It doesn't burn cleanly but considering it is a fraction of the actual product
The cost is likely to be lower since paper can be had for basically free.
The larger cylinders are not a bad value but
People prefer propane because it is cleaner and more controllable.
Not because it is cheaper. The small cylinders are a rip off.
Candles and wood were used long before propane.
Wax and paper candles are likely to cost much less as well.

violet sin - 22-9-2015 at 20:25

its not sold by the pound... volume. the 10 gal canister is usually filled to ~7gal range. some times less, some times more. it was 12$ for 6 gallons.. you cant even buy enough wax to make free paper burn as long as 6 gallons of propane through a single burner for the same price, period. you don't have to use both burners at the same time, and the fold up shield works great in the wind, as well as providing a solid platform on which to cook. it is convienient, is it safe, it is clean and highly affordable in the described manner.

macckone - 23-9-2015 at 06:22

Quote: Originally posted by violet sin  
its not sold by the pound... volume. the 10 gal canister is usually filled to ~7gal range. some times less, some times more. it was 12$ for 6 gallons.. you cant even buy enough wax to make free paper burn as long as 6 gallons of propane through a single burner for the same price, period. you don't have to use both burners at the same time, and the fold up shield works great in the wind, as well as providing a solid platform on which to cook. it is convienient, is it safe, it is clean and highly affordable in the described manner.

In the US it is sold by weight in movable tanks. Home tanks are done differently.
That is how movable propane tanks are filled here. By weight. The usual cylinder
is called a 20 lb cylinder. It is filled to 15 lbs for historical reasons related to the
addition of safety valves.

The OP is living in a walmart parking lot.
This is what they sell:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Blue-Rhino-Propane-Tank-Exchange/2...
Price will vary but it is 15 lbs of propane for something around $20
And the tank cost $20-30 without exchange. Plus it is illegal to store or transport
a propane tanks larger than 1 lb in a vehicle without placards in most states.
Yet another drawback to being homeless. Of course you can tie it to the roof
of the vehicle, that's legal. Legality aside, I doubt that law is really enforced.

The ratio of wax to paper is about 1:10 by weight.
So for about $6 and 20 lbs of paper you have more fuel
Than a 20 lb cylinder of propane for about 1/3 the price.
I learned this in the boy scouts. We made wax and paper logs
For camping in areas where no wood was available.
Wax paper candles are not clean or necessarily safe but
They are cheap. Which is what this post is about.

violet sin - 23-9-2015 at 06:49

I live in California.. aka the US. by the gallon here. you can go to many gas stations( read- auto fuel dispensary location) to have them refill the tanks, by the gallon, you don't have to exchange a friggin blue rhino. those are not economical. it is not illegal to transport a secured and upright propane tank in a vehicle in any area I have ever been. no one displays placcards to carry 1 lb of propane... that would be mad.

I would love to test your theory that 1:10 weight of paid for wax and free paper will burn longer than the equivelant "cost" of propane on a single burner coleman camp stove. I have a tank I need to go fill soon, you want to do a test run? I could go get say 6$ of propane and see how long or how much water I could boil.

because I bet my 6$ goes farther than yours. and I don't need some of my last heat to make the next batch of "paper logs"

macckone - 23-9-2015 at 10:40

If I had the time to actually run such an experiment I would but that is going to take a
week or more. It is relatively easy to show that my method has more total energy but
how much is actually used to do 'work'. I suspect propane is more efficient than wax
paper candles but the real question is dollar for dollar. Of course there is a question of
how to purchase said propane as the OP wanted to know what to buy at walmart.
And that limits the choices of fuels.

BTW you misunderstood. The placarding is required if you are moving tanks larger than
one pound inside the vehicle. DoT requirement. Fire code says they can't be stored in
vehicles or dwellings. I leave the 1lb cylinders in my jeep all the time though. And like
I said, it isn't enforced on non-commercial vehicles. Unless of course you get stopped
and you annoy the cop, then you may get a POP ticket. In many cities it is also illegal
to chew gum in public (outdated law), but noone is getting arrested. In several states
you are also required to have someone run in front of your vehicle with a lantern to
warn horsemen of the approach of a horseless carriage (betting it has been a century
or so since that was enforced).