Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Liquid_Methylamine ?

Plan_B - 19-8-2015 at 08:59

Hi ,
I was watching 'Braking Bad' and saw that they were stealing liquid methylamine.

But methylamine is only liquid below -6 deg.C.

Also in some patents I read about dissolving a substance in "liquid-methylamine-freebase".
But the freebase is also a gas at RT.

What is meant by liquid freebase ?
And what is in the Braking Bad MeNH2 barrels ?

Thanks for your reply :)

aga - 19-8-2015 at 09:10

In the film, the barrels are a quarter filled with water, so the actors do not strain their backs when they move/lift it.

There has to be some weight for it look good, but too heavy and the producers get sued.

The mercury fulminate is coloured sugar.

The M60 at the end is firing very light blanks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_base

[Edited on 19-8-2015 by aga]

PHILOU Zrealone - 19-8-2015 at 09:46

CH3-NH2 dissolved at 30-40% in water...just like NH3 gas can make a concentrated 25% solution by weight in water.

fluorescence - 19-8-2015 at 10:39

Never watched BB but if you look through supplier lists you see that Methylamine is usually sold as 40% solution in water at least in the lists I saw.

SunriseSunset - 21-8-2015 at 15:43

like other had said in earlier posts, methylamine forms an aqueous solution.

Take methylamine hydrochloride salt then dissolve it in an appropriate amount of water, then cool the solution to around 5* C and you add enough (pre-cooled) dilute NaOH(aq) to create aqueous methylamine freebase in solution with NaCl.

The higher the methylamine concentration is in the water, the more likely it will form a gas and separate so cooling the temperature will help you prevent it from escaping. Methylamine salt and base are plenty soluble in water. The salt is actually hygroscopic.

Walter White even mentions in the show that it was aqueous methylamine so you can assume it was idk a 20-40% solution of the freebase in the barrel prop.

I think if they had a barrel of PURE freebase liquid methylamine, it would be exponentially more hazardous to handle, even in the show's plot.

One thing that gets me is during the train heist when they used the tubes to suck out that huge amount, they were spilling it all over the place lol they weren't even wearing gas masks. omg

GrayGhost - 23-8-2015 at 14:51

In Breaking Bad all is exagerate, Walter and partner preparate kilos and kilos of methanfetamine, is posible but very difficultously so quantity , they make drums . When the gangster sniff the sustance, hé should be death because the dosage are 20 , and 40 mg depending of isomer.

Is more shit of television. Excuseme my bad english and my vocabulary but , I am not stupid for believe all.


_________________________________________

I don´t chemist, i am blacksmithing.

Darkstar - 24-8-2015 at 20:55

I seriously doubt 20-40mg of methamphetamine would kill anyone, let alone an experienced user with a tolerance. Besides, stimulant ODs aren't usually fatal anyway, especially if they're the only drug involved. Overdosing on a potent CNS stimulant like cocaine or methamphetamine isn't like overdosing on a potent CNS depressant like morphine or fentanyl. It's the depressants that tend to kill people, not stimulants. Honestly, even a mild-to-moderate alcohol overdose would likely be more dangerous than a large methamphetamine overdose. The real danger with a meth OD is its tendency to cause irreversible damage to dopaminergic and serotonergic neurons.

Also, I wouldn't necessarily call Breaking Bad "shit television." Yes, Breaking Bad had its fair share of scientific inaccuracies; however, unlike most TV shows (and movies), it also got a hell of a lot right, too. Regarding the show's portrayal of chemistry, here are a few of my biggest gripes:


Bert - 24-8-2015 at 21:29

Quote:

Regarding the show's portrayal of chemistry, here are a few of my biggest gripes:


Hey, it's TV. You want congruence with reality, turn that sucker off... I've helped make a few video and film productions. I have explained reality to producers and artistic directors to little avail. Subtle nuances and depictions of reality are not wanted, broad strokes, buzz words, adherence to popular misconceptions and overemphasis of flashy visuals rule the day.

The one thing that BB got at perfect pitch: How ordinary people who have some reason to think they need it can fixate on a way to make quick cash... And the chain of events they unleash steadily gets further and further out in left field, until it all absolutely goes to hell.

zed - 29-8-2015 at 12:45

Ummmm. Old WW doesn't say he is producing D-Methamphetamine, he merely babbles on about isomers.

As for the rest.......Who says that Walter is actually a genius speed chemist? He makes a nice clean, desirable, product. But, he hasn't spent a lifetime, researching this particular synthesis.

Old W.W. does seem to have embraced a bit of Megalomania.

So, maybe he isn't as slick as some of the guys here on the board. So what?

The series is more about the consequences of our decisions, than it is about pure chemistry.

One thing leads to another. Bad things happen. W.W. is swept away, into a dark world of violence and crime.

It ain't an entirely inaccurate depiction.

Of furthur interest.... Technical advise was provided to the producers, by US Drug Enforcement Agencies. Government Chemists actually did some demo's.
They showed 'em some bare bones stuff, and movie folks took it from there.

Providing cutting edge, avant guard, hush hush underground chemistry, was not the LEO's aim. The aim was probably to supply simple stuff only....enough to provide plausibility....But, without giving up some potentially dangerous information.



[Edited on 29-8-2015 by zed]

Darkstar - 29-8-2015 at 14:38

Quote: Originally posted by zed  
Ummmm. Old WW doesn't say he is producing D-Methamphetamine, he merely babbles on about isomers.


While I agree with your post for the most part, Walt did directly imply that he is producing pure d-methamphetamine during the episode "Box Cutter." Here is a direct quote from the Breaking Bad wikia:
Quote:
However, despite using reductive amination, Walt implies his product is enantiomerically pure in “Box Cutter”. He asks Victor, “If our reduction is not stereospecific, then how can our product be enantiomerically pure?” In other words, Walt is asking "If our reduction generates both enantiomers, how does our product contain only one?" Unfortunately, we don’t know if Walt is just bluffing to try and save his and Jesse’s life. If Walt’s product is nearly 100% pure d-methamphetamine, we can assume he devised some technique to make the the P2P process chirally selective, even though the reductive is usually not stereospecific.


So either Walt was lying, and his product really is racemic, or somehow his imine reduction step has an extremely high degree of stereoselectivity and produces nearly pure d-methamphetamine. (since it's obviously not going to be l-methamphetamine)

CharlieA - 29-8-2015 at 17:08

Bert, you are right...it is TV. How real can "reality" TV be, if there is always a camera(man) present? e.g., Big Brother, Survivor, Bachelor(ette)? And if anyone takes any TV show literally, shame on them!

zed - 31-8-2015 at 13:06

Arguments have been made that L-Methamphetamine is actually the more desirable intoxicant.

Though no one would claim that it is more potent. Back in the age of legends, when an old buddy actually marketed the L isomer, folks raved about it. They also stated that it took really a lot to get high. A deal breaker.

As for Walt's reduction producing an isomeric product from a imine. Well, theoretically you might be able to produce a preponderance of the D isomer, via use of an exotic Ruthenium catalyst complex. But, generally speaking, such reductions require anerobic conditions.

No hint of that being the case in "Breaking Bad".

So, it would appear that Walt has taken his secret with him, to the grave.

Unless of course, you can track down that weasel Pinkman.

If you have access to the "Breaking Bad" DVDs, much is explained in the Bonus Features areas. The show's creator doesn't claim complete credibility, just an approximation thereof.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/adsc.200390011/ab...

http://www.orgsyn.org/demo.aspx?prep=CV9P0589

[Edited on 31-8-2015 by zed]

[Edited on 31-8-2015 by zed]

[Edited on 31-8-2015 by zed]

aga - 31-8-2015 at 13:18

Pinkman is Pinkhippo11.

He knows everything and even sells fried chicken as well.

Mabus - 1-9-2015 at 14:30

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was aqueous methylamine.

Although the show is very good, there is one thing that bugs the hell out of me: Hydrofluoric acid.
Apart from the fact that it is not really that corrosive (as shown on Mythbusters), why the hell does that high school have so much HF? There's like six 3 L bottles of the damn thing in the storage room. Why would a high school need so much of that stuff?

And while the guys wore some protection when they used it to dispose of bodies, it wasn't full body protection and any acidic vapors would of burned their exposed skin and poison them.

[Edited on 1-9-2015 by Mabus]

zed - 3-9-2015 at 16:38

Well, when I was working in the college Chem Store-room...We had HF, but not too much of it. Coulda had more, I suppose, if someone had wanted to order it. Purchase of some things was carefully monitored, some other things were not.

In those days, we had giant bottles of Benzaldehyde everywhere. Some had been sitting for decades. All kinds of other exotic stuff had also accumulated. And, every once in a while, we had to call in the fire department, for safe disposal of some deadly material found mouldering on the back shelves somewhere. Half-consumed cans of ether, sitting for long, unknowable periods of time, was a common problem. Sometimes, it was Di-isopropyl-ether. Very dangerous to triffle with.

A few years after my departure, I returned to find the Chem Store-room largely denuded.
Coulda stored the whole inventory in a minivan. School policy changed. Someone, felt the chemicals might pose a liability problem. Poof! All gone.