Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Request for help testing

Request for help testing

blogfast25 - 29-7-2015 at 18:43

I was wondering if some people could help me test an idea I had. I lack the proper equipment ATM. And yes I do realize that there is a post on this topic but this is not a question on the compound. The nickel DOESNT need to be removed but still should be demagnetized. Tip cooled sulfuric acid will work better I believe

Nd₂Fe₁₄BNi_(s) + 17 H₂SO₄_(aq) -> Nd₂(SO₄)₃_(aq) + 14Fe(II)SO₄_(aq)+ B-Ni _(s)
Filter of B-Ni alloy for future separation
Nd₂(SO₄)₃_(aq) + 14Fe(II)SO₄_(aq) + heat -> Nd₂(SO₄)₃_(s) + 14Fe(II)SO₄_(aq)
Nd₂(SO₄)₃_(s) + 6HCl_(aq) + heat -> 2NdCl₃_(aq) + 3H₂SO₄_(g)
2NdCl₃_(s) + 3Mg/3Ca/6Na/6Li_(s) + heat(700C) -> 2Nd + 3MgCl₂/3CaCl₂/6NaCl/6LiCl
Wash with cold (MUST BE COLD) water. Nd will react with warm water (similar to Mg or Ca). The B-Ni alloy left can be separated with hot HCl and aluminium foil

All you can need to know and more on Nd magnets:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=14145

Some of your reaction equations are rubbish, BTW, so you need to study that thread.

[Edited on 30-7-2015 by blogfast25]

DalisAndy - 29-7-2015 at 19:28

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

Quote: Originally posted by DalisAndy

All you can need to know and more on Nd magnets:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=14145

Some of your reaction equations are rubbish, BTW, so you need to study that thread.

[Edited on 30-7-2015 by blogfast25]

Oh I have read it. multiple time in fact. It's about as disjointed as a crash crash victim. I had done my own read reach via the library on this forum. If you are referring to the B-Ni alloy thing. That is complete find to call it that. I have read many sources that saying that will work and others that said no

DalisAndy - 29-7-2015 at 19:42

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

Quote: Originally posted by DalisAndy

All you can need to know and more on Nd magnets:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=14145

Some of your reaction equations are rubbish, BTW, so you need to study that thread.

[Edited on 30-7-2015 by blogfast25]

blogfast25 - 30-7-2015 at 06:08

Quote: Originally posted by DalisAndy

It may be 'disjointed' but it contains a lot more information than your post.

B-Ni alloy? The Nd,Fe,B alloy is coated with a nickel sleeve. 'B-Ni alloy' doesn't come into it.

Nd sulphate cannot be displaced with HCl.

NdCl3 cannot be reduced with Mg, Ca, Na or Li. It's thermodynamically impossible.

Via watery chemistry one obtains NdCl3.6H2O, not NdCl3.

As regards these 'many sources', I'd really love to see them! What precisely do they claim 'will work'?

I understand you're an element collector who dreams of adding neodymium to his collection. But extraction of Nd from Nd magnets is seriously difficult at the home/hobby level and no one here has so far succeeded fully, despite good expertise and valiant efforts.

[Edited on 30-7-2015 by blogfast25]

MrHomeScientist - 30-7-2015 at 07:02

Despite claiming to have read the thread, all of what you ask has been gone over multiple times and in multiple places in said thread. Blogfast provides a nice summary of what's wrong in your initial post. To add to that: The nickel coating does need to be removed, because the acid won't be able to reach the magnet alloy otherwise. Also, the final reduction with a reactive metal must be done under inert atmosphere. It won't work without one - I've tried it. I also tried magnesium to no avail. We've done the math (in the thread!) and determined that the only one that has any hope of taking this reaction to completion with good separation is lithium metal reacting with neodymium fluoride. The chloride won't work either. Had you read the thread as you claimed, you would know these things already.

If the thread is too 'disjointed' then do what I did and make your own summary of the things important to you as you read through it, and refer to that. I copied out all of the actual experiments then read through that much smaller subset of posts. From there it's easy to tell what works and what doesn't.

Finally, endlessly speculating different equations while disregarding the hard work of blogfast, myself, and others is bound to get you nowhere. How about you go ahead and try some of these things that you are convinced will work? That would be a useful contribution to the main thread, and we would be glad to help you there if you show some effort. The only 'equipment' you need for the first few steps is a few beakers (but it gets much more complex after that).

blogfast25 - 30-7-2015 at 07:49

MrHS:

Ooopsie. I didn't realise it was THAT DalisAndy. That guy's a whiner beyond helping and who always seems to think he knows best somehow, IMHO. I'm not wasting my time on this (having already done that, essentially). The trouble with some element collectors is that they want to do complicated things while knowing as much about chemistry as a cow knows about eating saffron. Harsh maybe but it needs to be said.

If you really want to add pure Nd to your collection, buy some, it's not expensive anymore.

This thread belongs in Detritus because of needless repetition. Starting multiple threads on exactly the same thing is trolling.

[Edited on 30-7-2015 by blogfast25]

DalisAndy - 30-7-2015 at 11:41

Blogfast
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neodymium(III)_chloride#Production_of_neodymium_metal
to your comment of other alkali metals displacing neodymium
If you get it to that, it is FAR safer than flourine

DalisAndy - 30-7-2015 at 11:45

another method I found to get NdCl₃: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hLEGMufP78

chemrox - 30-7-2015 at 12:57

Hey let's have a little professionalism here. There's an unfortunate tendency of people to be a lot more confrontational in type than they would in person. Several examples are above. It was not necessary to say his reax were all rubbish. They may have been but we could have been more helpful and a gentle approach would be more likely to have an impact.

aga - 30-7-2015 at 13:04

Professionalism ?

This is a forum for Amateur Science, or so i thought.

Let the good times roll ..

"It's hard out here for a Bitch !"

DalisAndy - 30-7-2015 at 13:07

I agree with chemrox, just because we are amateurs doesn't mean we can drop our level of respect to a minimum. I run by the rule of if we can't act like men, then we aren't a team

blogfast25 - 30-7-2015 at 13:19

Quote: Originally posted by DalisAndy

Blogfast
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neodymium(III)_chloride#Production_of_neodymium_metal
to your comment of other alkali metals displacing neodymium
If you get it to that, it is FAR safer than flourine

It's a Wikipedia error. Li doesn't reduce NdCl3. Check the thermodynamics on that reaction.

'Flourine'? [sic] You don't need fluorine to prepare NdF3, as you would know if you HAD read that thread.

Quote: Originally posted by DalisAndy

another method I found to get NdCl₃: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hLEGMufP78

No. He thinks he can separate NdCl3 and FeCl2 by running iced water over the mixture. It's plain NONSENSE, like so much on teh Utoobs. You just can't separate Fe and Nd that way.

You're clueless. As is 'TheChemLife'...

Quote: Originally posted by DalisAndy

I agree with chemrox, just because we are amateurs doesn't mean we can drop our level of respect to a minimum. I run by the rule of if we can't act like men, then we aren't a team

ROFLOL. You've just made me piss myself.

[Edited on 30-7-2015 by blogfast25]

aga - 30-7-2015 at 13:54

Is it too late to sell anyone some Kanga Pants ?

blogfast25 - 30-7-2015 at 13:55

Quote: Originally posted by chemrox

It was not necessary to say his reax were all rubbish.

And who wrote that, huh? Straw man, sir!

[Edited on 30-7-2015 by blogfast25]

blogfast25 - 30-7-2015 at 13:57

Quote: Originally posted by aga

Is it too late to sell anyone some Kanga Pants ?

How p*ss proof are they?

aga - 30-7-2015 at 14:01

This is terminally silly.

@DalisAndy

Do some experiments, Scientifically and PROVE them wrong.

Photos will help.

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

How p*ss proof are they?

They're Chinese copies, so probably piss poor on the piss-proof front.

Ony 9.99 a square yard though - a Bargain !

[Edited on 30-7-2015 by aga]

DalisAndy - 30-7-2015 at 15:29

And that is why I'm asking for help. I don't have a lab yet

Texium - 30-7-2015 at 15:50

Quote: Originally posted by DalisAndy

And that is why I'm asking for help. I don't have a lab yet

What is currently standing in the way of that happening? Space? Money? Parents? Quite often there can be workarounds for such issues.
Until then, asking others to try procedures that they feel confident will not work and be a waste of resources will get you nowhere.

Oscilllator - 3-8-2015 at 21:20

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

It's a Wikipedia error. Li doesn't reduce NdCl3. Check the thermodynamics on that reaction.

Forgive my highschool level chemistry here for a second, but I'm not sure that's correct.
Based on these half equations:
Nb³⁺ + 3e^- -> Nb -2.32V
Li⁺ + e^- -> Li -3.04V

The reaction Nb³⁺ + 3Li -> 3Li⁺ should have a potential of

-2.32 - (-3.04) = 0.72V

and thus be possible. Right?

Texium - 3-8-2015 at 22:12

Quote: Originally posted by Oscilllator

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

It's a Wikipedia error. Li doesn't reduce NdCl3. Check the thermodynamics on that reaction.

Are you looking at Nb or Nd?