Uses for H2WO4???

Hello all

Does anyone know any uses for Tungstic Acid (H2WO4)?

I have heaps from dissolving about 150g of 2% Thoriated welding rods in H2O2 and figured I would check if it was useful before disposing of it.

Only thing I have done is make some Na2WO4 and that was only because I couldn't find anything else to do with the H2WO4!

I'm sure someone out there will hate me for saying this (as they have probably spent their whole career working on tungsten compounds) but tungsten compounds seem boring as bat shit!

Thanks in advance

Dangle

Indeed the density is impressive! Have read a bunch of stories of people drilling out gold bars and filling them with Tungsten rods (density for W and Au is almost identical - Au : 19.30g/cm3 - W : 19.25g/cm3)!

Here is the video I first saw it on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsMxha7ZC_Y

and here is one of a very few papers on the subject:

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ac60176a021

Dissolving W metal with H2O2 does not appear to have been researched in great depth (as far as I can see).

Hope that helps

Hahaha that is what I mean

Every time I see a paper on the subject it is just copy's of the same thing

Could be (possibly?) an interesting subject for someone with better skills and facility's than me to research some more

Dangle

Na haven't tried pure W.

Aim of my experiment was to extract ThO2 but figured I would save the "waste" product in case it ever came in handy

Also without using heat took about 4-5 weeks, changing the 100ml 50% H2O2 bath weekly, for the rods to dissolve!

Hehehe na my "beaker" for this experiment was a jar as knew it would take a while and didn't want to have a real beaker out of action for that long!

Music in the vid is not my style either

Tungsten bronze

I don't know what kit you have, but tungsten bronze looks and sounds very cool.

Quote: Originally posted by deltaH

I don't know what kit you have, but tungsten bronze looks and sounds very cool.

Wow! That looks amazing! Not sure how easly I could make it and did some research:

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=N-QRBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA1...

Page 139 if the link wigs out.

One of the methods mentioned electrolitic reduction of WO3 (dehydrated H2WO4) and Na2WO4 at 800C. I dont know if I have the facilitys to do this but would it be possible to make an impure sample by heating a mixture of WO3 and Na2WO4 in a crucible with a MAP gas torch while carbon electrodes sit in the mixure? Or would this need to be done in an inert atmospere with a diferent method of heating? I know my method (if it works at all) would make quite impure samples but I am cool with that

Just looks sooooo amazing and now I have seen that stuff I want some!

diggafromdover - It is already a yellow powder so wouldnt be hard to ship as it is if you want some

Thanks everyone

Dangle

I was wondering if it can't be made from igniting a tiny amount of sodium metal and tungsten trioxide directly... a kinda sodium tungsten thermite

Would be VERY dangerous, so be warned that I wouldn't try this in more than milligram amounts to start with and unless properly experienced and kitted out for the dangers. It could very well explode.

If it doesn't explode, it would be a very easy way to make these types of tungsten bronzes, perhaps even molten? Imagine if it were castable!

I also wonder if one could use lithium metal (potentially recoverable from lithium batteries) to make a lithium tungsten bronze. However, I don't know if these bronzes even form with lithium?

Quote: Originally posted by deltaH

I was wondering if it can't be made from igniting a tiny amount of sodium metal and tungsten trioxide directly... a kinda sodium tungsten thermite Would be VERY dangerous, so be warned that I wouldn't try this in more than milligram amounts to start with and unless properly experienced and kitted out for the dangers. It could very well explode. If it doesn't explode, it would be a very easy way to make these types of tungsten bronzes, perhaps even molten? Imagine if it were castable! I also wonder if one could use lithium metal (potentially recoverable from lithium batteries) to make a lithium tungsten bronze. However, I don't know if these bronzes even form with lithium?

Hi deltaH

Yup the Li bronze does exist A reference for it is in that link above

Li2CO3 +WO3 = LiXWO3 (at 780-850C)

Hmmm... I think I read somewhere about a Thermite type reaction to make it but pretty sure it was under inert atmosphere Will do some more research to see if it can be done in a backyard setup!

Might be worth a shot though! Once I am satisfied it won't be a CuO + Al type reaction I might give it a go!

It's exactly the CuO + Al reaction I was thinking off
WO3 is a pretty powerful oxidant and obviously Na/Li are nutty strong reductants, so, yeah... BOOM! (probably)

I doubt this will work, the tungsten bronze is a partially reduced tungsten trioxide, so you need a reducing agent.

Nice to see that lithium bronze is known.

Here's a grand idea, make a thermite this way using the following anhydrous reagents (or else it will blow up)!

6Al + 11WO₃ + 9Na₂WO₄ => 3Al₂O₃ + 20Na_[0.9]WO₃

According to wiki, 0.9 sodium = golden coloured bronze.

I will go out on a limb here and say you might make blue coloured stuff at low sodium content (if this is anything like the electride trends).

Anhydrous sodium tungstate melts at 698°C, which is nice in terms of making this an easy starter.

Tungsten trioxide melts at 1,473 °C. Presumably the sodium in the bronze makes it melt a lower acting as an alkali flux, so if you're lucky, you might get a melt of the bronze and can cast with it

You can presumably calcine both your tungstic acid and sodium tungstate simultaneously in a crucible using a gas torch. Hopefully, this will make a brittle tungsten trioxide soda 'glass'. Then simply grind it for the thermite reaction.

I can just see the next craze, tungsten bronze statues

Maybe they won't even tarnish?!

Frak, there must be a ton of money to be made with this if it could be made to work...

[Edited on 1-8-2015 by deltaH]

Wow! Had to share this! It talks about Li, Na, K, Rb AND Cs Tungsten Bronzes

http://actachemscand.org/pdf/acta_vol_05_p0372-0378.pdf

Only problem is the purification uses HF acid I crap my pants just thinking of HF's toxicity and knowing my luck I would spill it all over myself and be dead in a week For instance every single time I work with AgNO3 I somehow get a black spot on my hands! I always wear gloves and is probably as I am working with 100g+ of Ag metal at a time and know it wont hurt me too bad :-P Might be more careful if it was HF!!!

The Li2CO3 +WO3 = LiXWO3 (at 780-850C) thing said it was with electrolysis going. I don't really know how electrolysis effects compounds (electricity runs on bad voodoo and dark magic hehehe ) so maybe that helps the reaction along? The only electrolysis I understand is breaking salts i.e. NaBr = Na(s) + Br(g/l/vapor - whatever you want to call it).

I will experiment on a few different methods and see if I can make something work Not this weekend though as it is raining here

Tungsten bronze statues is probably the coolest thing I have ever heard! Just has a really nice ring to it

Ah ok, yes then reduction is effected electrolytically. I still think a thermite is much simpler and if manageable, would work to make larger batches (important for tungsten bronze statues )

Nice find with that paper!

I see Wright (ref. 7 in the paper) had prepared them "by reduction of polytungstates with zinc", so not so far removed from my idea with the thermite

Personally, I would not work with HF outside of a professionally kitted lab!!!

I expect the thermite to be pretty fast, but because much less aluminium is used, it might be better behaved. Possibly the low aluminium might make the thermite reaction not proceed at all, but I doubt that.

Also nice to see that polytungstates form, thus I think you certainly can fuse crude tungstic acid and sodium tungstate at high temperature to form the glass precursors I spoke of earlier.

[Edited on 1-8-2015 by deltaH]

Yeah no intention of using HF in the foreseeable future!

Was looking for a "safer" way to fluorinate compounds than using F2 or HF at one point. Was looking at NH4HF2 but gave up one I saw that it makes HF when mixed in water

Plus in my research recently on legality of importing things found it was on ASIO's (Australia's CIA) list!

Surprisingly I don't have any Al powder at the moment

I will have to buy some now!

Damn i'm excited for this NaxWO3!!!

Buying pure W can get expensive though Might just have to go commercially pure in the short term!

[Edited on 1-8-2015 by Dangle89]

Me tooooo!!!!

If you ever do it, wait for it to cool down before digging out the bronze, else you risk oxidation in air if it's still very hot. I presume that's a problem at high temperatures.

If the tungsten bronze doesn't melt, then purifying it from the Al2O3 might be a problem

What about using OTC glass etching solutions to dissolve the Al2O3?

[Edited on 1-8-2015 by deltaH]

What are some OTC glass etching solutions?

I'm fairly sure all HF (even those low concentration rust removers) products have been banned in AUS. Either for health reasons or because they figured someone was gonna buy cheap $5 rust remover, then spend a bazillion dollars on an UF6 enrichment plant for their back yard

The Only other compound that got a mention on wiki was NaF. Will check out an art store to see if they have anything when the sun comes up If I ever get to sleep before that

Quote: Originally posted by Dangle89

What are some OTC glass etching solutions? I'm fairly sure all HF (even those low concentration rust removers) products have been banned in AUS. Either for health reasons or because they figured someone was gonna buy cheap $5 rust remover, then spend a bazillion dollars on an UF6 enrichment plant for their back yard The Only other compound that got a mention on wiki was NaF. Will check out an art store to see if they have anything when the sun comes up If I ever get to sleep before that

Sweet I have 85% H3PO4 here already

Quote: Originally posted by Dangle89

What are some OTC glass etching solutions? I'm fairly sure all HF (even those low concentration rust removers) products have been banned in AUS. Either for health reasons or because they figured someone was gonna buy cheap $5 rust remover, then spend a bazillion dollars on an UF6 enrichment plant for their back yard

Hey! I'm not an aussie. I just live here!

Quote: Originally posted by Tdep

While not cheap, Mitre 10 does stock solutions of ammonium bifluoride as a tile enchant. Sort of expensive but just an acidification from OTC HF. Not that i'd recommend it, how they can sell a product with only a tiny 'poison' sign on it surprises me. Oh and more Aussies! We really are making a surge here, before long we'll have our own subforum!

Wow! That is good to know Maybe one day if I feel like having a high chance of dieing I might buy some to try and make some F compounds

I cant believe you can buy such a dangerous chemical at a hardware store, no questions asked! From what I was reading on DFAT it looked like you might have people with guns smashing through the skylights just for looking at it! Was on the same list as Pu and U compounds!

Yeah I have been very surprised at the amount of aussies that have reached out to me since joining

Thanks for the warm welcome everyone

Dangle

Actually, on thing that have a chance of killing you I was chatting to a mate about an easy way to make very small amounts of fairly pure HI.

He suggested possibly Hydrazine (N2H4)(aq) + I2(s) = HI(aq) + N2(g) - Not balanced.

I know there are other posts on making HI but figured I would quickly chuck this in here (happy to move it if it becomes a massive discussion)

Just looking for a Yes / No answer.

Looking at making kinda 5-10ml of HI at a time and If I bought 500ml It would probably degrade to I2 and water long before I could use it all! And really couldn't be assed to set up a distillation setup for 10ml!

Again happy to move this somewhere if that would be more appropriate!

Oh, also Al powder is on its way so NaxWO3 will be attempted soon!

Dangle

[Edited on 2-8-2015 by Dangle89]

Well let's hope with a properly tweaked thermite, you can get the 'bronze' to melt, then there will be no need for HF compounds.

I said earlier that you could probably fuse your tungstic acid and sodium tungstate simultaneously to make a polytungstate soda 'glass', but it occurred to me that your crude tungstic acid probably has a variable amount of water.

It would probably be best to fuse them separately to first prepare anhydrous WO3 and Na2WO4 each, probably easier then to weigh an accurate ratio so as to hit a 'x' = 0.9 for sodium in the final stoichiometry and maximise the gold colour.

Please take lots of photos, we love photos

Should be all good

Good ol wiki says H2WO4 decomposes at 100C so will chuck a few grams on the hotplate at 140-160C before I start

Will do with the photos!

So far, different methods to try are:

1. Heat WO3 with Na2WO4 in a crucible with a MAP gas torch while carbon electrodes sit in the mix attached to a 12V battery.

2. After more research, maybe ignite a mixture of WO3 and Na metal. If something seems to work here I will also use a chunk of Li metal And if I feel REALLY keen maybe with K metal... Probably not gonna do the K though!

3. A thermite mixture of Al, WO3 and Na2WO4.

If method 1 doesn't work can use the "glass" for method 3

Have I missed anything or any other ideas?

Also will start off (after very very small milligram tests to make sure It won't blow half of Canberra up!) with total mixtures of a MAX of 1g (WO3 + Na metal will be less!) but do you reckon I should use a piece of Mg ribbon to get it going? I will probably be able to answer my own question after the micro tests but just worried about contaminating the product more Any other Ideas for starting a thermite reaction "safely" without adding any foreign matter to the mix?

Cant wait!!!

Dangle

[Edited on 2-8-2015 by Dangle89]

Was thinking... If I put a small prill of I2 on some Al powder and dropped a drop of water on it to start a small AlI3 reaction would that have enough heat to start the other main reaction?

It does not look like a WIx compound exists. NaI is easily water soluble as is AlI3 so if the reaction has enough energy to start the thermite one we might have a winner!

Then I could easily set up a water drip system that gives me time to run to a safe distance

Edit - Just found WI4 exists but don't think it is easy to make. couldnt find any info on synthesis.

Thoughts anyone?

[Edited on 2-8-2015 by Dangle89]

Ok sounds good

Was just worried that there would be a higher affinity to form MgWO4 rather than NaxWO3.

MgWO4 is a type of Wolframite.

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1107/1107.0160.pdf

Did some more research and MgWO4 has pale blue luminescence so if I end up with something that is a golden colour with a almost Osmium like blue tinge in the sun I reckon that would look even more amazing!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphor

Don't know much about luminescence but it says MgWO4's wavelength is 473 nm, which is in the visible light range, so would it look light blue in sunlight?

Might have too make some MgWO4 as a side project now too

Wow when I started this I thought W compounds were boring! How wrong I was

Yup have gold and sliver smithing equipment here so if looks as amazing as I am hoping will definitely be wearing the product around


[Edited on 2-8-2015 by Dangle89]

Indeed, but let's get the thermite to work first. It's easy to forget, with a name like "tungsten bronze" that these things are in fact mineral materials. Getting them to melt and more specifically, survive intact, is probably not going to be easy.

The product is going to be polycrystalline, so there could well be issues with it being too brittle. There's also strain and rates of cooling that could affect things, so it might just blow up in complexity, excuse the pun.

While I'd love to be wrong, my gut feeling says this will make tiny grains of the stuff, similar to making a silicon thermite? Those grains may be well mixed with Al2O3 which will complicate matters... but time will tell.

Might just end up with a tungsten glitter powder when all is said and done

Quote: Originally posted by battoussai114

Jokes aside, I think phosphoric acid also attacks Aluminum Oxide and it should be available OTC, not sure how it would react with the tungsten bronze...

Quote: Originally posted by deltaH

Do we really know that phosphoric acid can dissolve calcined aluminium oxide for sure? The latter is tough as nails i.t.o it's chemical inertness (high T increases crystallinity at the expense of reactivity). Does anyway have a reference for this? To be honest, I'm very sceptical about this...

Quote: Originally posted by deltaH

Thanks battoussai114, as I understand it, these are polishing techniques for very thin layers of aluminium oxide. Aluminium phosphate is insoluble, so I doubt very much that phosphoric acid can be used to dissolve bulk alumina.

However, no reference is provided

It would be nice to have looked up the details on that, e.g. temperature and time in acid, nature of the alumina, etc.

Perhaps one needs hot acid and a long time. Again, effects on the bronze unknown.

In some respect, tungsten bronze can be viewed as a kind of sub oxide of tungsten, so if it were to react with HCl hypothetically, it would form sodium chloride, water and tungsten chlorides. The latter hydrolyzes rapidly to the oxide, so I am guessing this dissolution in HCl in unlikely since the reverse reaction is so favoured?

[Edited on 5-8-2015 by deltaH]

Quote: Originally posted by deltaH

No worries. Aluminium chloride, on the other hand, is very soluble and according to Wikipedia: Quote: Hydrated aluminium trichloride is prepared by dissolving aluminium oxides in hydrochloric acid. However, no reference is provided

Whether or not an aluminium oxide dissolves in acid depends on several factors.


Here's an Al2O3 for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby

You think it dissolves in HCl/H2SO4?

How about this one?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bauxite

(A: NO!)

Freshly precipitated Al(OH)3, carefully dried will dissolve easily in dilute mineral acids but anything that has a bit of 'thermal history' is a real question mark. That is true of many metal oxides, BTW.

[Edited on 5-8-2015 by blogfast25]

Yeah, it's the usual story, which is why it would have been nice to see a reference on that wiki article. Like I said way back up in the thread, calcined Al2O3 is tough as nails, I was exactly thinking of ruby

I don't see anything but fluorides having a chance to be honest and I think that is now consensus! Problem, is that fluorides may well dissolve the tungsten bronze as well

Maybe we're lucky and the temperature get hot enough to melt/fuse the tungsten bronze, then simple physical methods of removing the Al2O3 would suffice

[Edited on 5-8-2015 by deltaH]

Hello All

One of my girlfriends family members lost her unborn baby the other day so haven't had much of a chance to give the NaxWO3 any thought

Back on it now though!

Saw this video the other day:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73YmP_JSrlU

Was wondering, if this fella managed to dissolve the left over Al2O3 from his thermite reaction, the Al2O3 from the WO3 / Al reaction should be able to be dissolved too yeah?

Not sure if the NaxWO3 will dissolve / convert to different compounds but just wanted to check if, from the video above, people think that the "waste" from this reaction would be the same or if we are back to using HF

Will be trying the NaxWO3 very soon and will post lots of pics on the thread soon :-) Keep an eye out and hopefully we might have something resembling NaxWO3 soon!

Thanks everyone!

Dan

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

I wouldn't guess the same from tungsten sodium alloy.

Quote: Originally posted by diggafromdover

Make the Tungstic Acid into a salt and ship it around.