Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Peracetic acid with 80% acetic acid

DrNewbee - 25-7-2015 at 13:52

Hi.
new here. Not sure if yhis is the pksce to post this but...here goes...

I cant seem to find GAA in my country..so the best i could find was 80% acetic acid. My question is: does any one have a rule for compensating for the less acetic acid in a peracetic acid combination? If that makes sense...

Do i have to have GAA or can i compensate by adding more of the 80% acetic acid?

Any solution is appreciated (no pun intended ) ☺

aga - 25-7-2015 at 14:21

If the 20% water is of concern, convert the acetic to sodium acetate and distill with conc sulphuric to give near anhydrous GAA.

This is well documented and well known throughout the universe.

That's the only reason that i know this.

Edit:

To help other people answer your question, please show the reaction you want to do.

That will help people see if the extra water will cause a problem.

[Edited on 25-7-2015 by aga]

zed - 25-7-2015 at 14:55

If the proceedure calls for GA, you had better use GA.

It's just easier.

aga - 25-7-2015 at 15:09

Quote: Originally posted by zed  
If the proceedure calls for GA, you had better use GA.

It's just easier.

If the procedure says to use any old random w% of acetic acid, even some Glacial Acetic Acid that happens to hanging around, then i guess that would be fine.

I doubt that GAA would be specified if Water was not an issue.

But then, we don't know, as there is no actual reaction specified, and no reference given, so we should be in Beginnings really should we not ?

[Edited on 25-7-2015 by aga]

Texium - 25-7-2015 at 15:28

This is peracetic acid he's talking about, not normal acetic acid. I think what he's saying is that he has 20% peracetic acid (which itself exists in equilibrium with acetic acid and hydrogen peroxide) with the balance made up of acetic acid. This will not work as a substitute for acetic acid. It is strongly oxidizing, really nasty stuff, and will definitely not work in organic reactions that call for acetic acid. It can be used to directly dissolve copper and lead though, which is does very fast, although it also forms insoluble basic acetates as a side product. And of course it has its own uses in organic chemistry, but only when it is specifically called for.

Crowfjord - 25-7-2015 at 16:16

I'm pretty sure he wants to make peracetic acid, using 80% acetic acid. The original post was fairly vague, though. It it was me, I would use 99% or better, but the 80% might work.

Texium - 25-7-2015 at 16:20

Quote: Originally posted by Crowfjord  
I'm pretty sure he wants to make peracetic acid, using 80% acetic acid. The original post was fairly vague, though. It it was me, I would use 99% or better, but the 80% might work.
I don't know about that, he mentions "compensating for the less acetic acid in a peracetic acid combination" which implies that he has it and wants to use it as acetic acid.

DrNewbee - 26-7-2015 at 01:42

Quote: Originally posted by Crowfjord  
I'm pretty sure he wants to make peracetic acid, using 80% acetic acid. The original post was fairly vague, though. It it was me, I would use 99% or better, but the 80% might work.


Yes i want to make peracetic acid and dont have it. Would the 20% water from the AA "derail" the process for the PAA to come to equlibrium? Is the water that destructiove to the process.?

And if GAA is not only preffered but demanded then do any of you have an udated way of turning it to GAA. Its been a while since the hive days and maybe there's a better way of concentrating it.

Thanks guys...

Sulaiman - 26-7-2015 at 01:49

I bought acetic anhydride a few days ago from here
http://onyxmet.com/?route=product/product&filter_name=ac...
very easy to buy from
and post from Poand to Germany should be quick and cheap.

[Edited on 26-7-2015 by Sulaiman]

DrNewbee - 26-7-2015 at 01:53

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
If the 20% water is of concern, convert the acetic to sodium acetate and distill with conc sulphuric to give near anhydrous GAA.

This is well documented and well known throughout the universe.

That's the only reason that i know this.

Edit:

To help other people answer your question, please show the reaction you want to do.

That will help people see if the extra water will cause a problem.

[Edited on 25-7-2015 by aga]



I want to make 15% peracetic acid to oxidise isosafrole.

DrNewbee - 26-7-2015 at 01:55

Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman  
I bought acetic anhydride a few days ago from here
http://onyxmet.com/?route=product/product&filter_name=ac...
very easy to buy from.



Where did they ship to...like would it cause any suspicion...they ship from polen?

Sulaiman - 26-7-2015 at 02:05

Shipped from Poland, very well packed and quick post.
I bought 100ml bottles of ether, chloroform, toluene, carbon disulphide and anhydrous acetic acid,
(mainly for me to use as cromatography and general purpose solvents)

I will buy from there again.

no need to register, just send an email with your requirements
I paid by PayPal but there are other options.

P.S. mention that you were refered by 'Sulaiman'
maybe I will get a discount next time :D

[Edited on 26-7-2015 by Sulaiman]

DrNewbee - 26-7-2015 at 02:23

Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman  
Shipped from Poland, very well packed and quick post.
I bought 100ml bottles of ether, chloroform, toluene, carbon disulphide and anhydrous acetic acid,
(mainly for me to use as cromatography and general purpose solvents)

I will buy from there again.

no need to register, just send an email with your requirements
I paid by PayPal but there are other options.

P.S. mention that you were refered by 'Sulaiman'


maybe I will get a discount next time :D

[Edited on 26-7-2015 by Sulaiman]



Hehe i will sulaiman. But did you have probkems with custom ?

DrNewbee - 26-7-2015 at 02:29

Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman  
Shipped from Poland, very well packed and quick post.
I bought 100ml bottles of ether, chloroform, toluene, carbon disulphide and anhydrous acetic acid,
(mainly for me to use as cromatography and general purpose solvents)

I will buy from there again.

no need to register, just send an email with your requirements
I paid by PayPal but there are other options.

P.S. mention that you were refered by 'Sulaiman'


maybe I will get a discount next time :D

[Edited on 26-7-2015 by Sulaiman]



Hehe i will sulaiman. But did you have probkems with custom ?

DrNewbee - 26-7-2015 at 02:30

Quote: Originally posted by DrNewbee  
Quote: Originally posted by aga  
If the 20% water is of concern, convert the acetic to sodium acetate and distill with conc sulphuric to give near anhydrous GAA.

This is well documented and well known throughout the universe.

That's the only reason that i know this.

Edit:

To help other people answer your question, please show the reaction you want to do.

That will help people see if the extra water will cause a problem.

[Edited on 25-7-2015 by aga]



I want to make 15% peracetic acid to oxidise isosafrole.



I found this...it seems to lend proof that it is possible
http://chemistry.mdma.ch/hiveboard/acquisition/000514682.htm...

Sulaiman - 26-7-2015 at 02:33

No problems at all, just came quickly by post, not opened en-route.
I have no idea what Poland to Germany will be like regarding customs etc.
but I see no reason for customs to be suspicious of 100ml quantities,
if you buy large quantities then your motives may be questionable.

After September next year when EU regulations restricting ownership of explosive and poison precursors come into effect,
life will become more primitive for us hobby chemists.

zed - 26-7-2015 at 14:35

Well, Peraformic was used in the original Japanese literature, but the whole thing was kinda tedious. Lots of solvent, but not much product. High vacuum distillation. Typographical errors. Yuck.

Such procedures were generally abandoned, a while ago. Development of the Wacker reaction supplanted them.

Routes that proceed through Nitropropene intermediates, are also viable.

Apparently, even Oxone works.



[Edited on 26-7-2015 by zed]

[Edited on 26-7-2015 by zed]

DrNewbee - 28-7-2015 at 04:46

Quote: Originally posted by zed  
Well, Peraformic was used in the original Japanese literature, but the whole thing was kinda tedious. Lots of solvent, but not much product. High vacuum distillation. Typographical errors. Yuck.

Such procedures were generally abandoned, a while ago. Development of the Wacker reaction supplanted them.

Routes that proceed through Nitropropene intermediates, are also viable.

Apparently, even Oxone works.






[Edited on 26-7-2015 by zed]

[Edited on 26-7-2015 by zed]




Well in my country i cant get pbenzo and pdcl so thats not an option to me...i seriously believe someone here must know if i can use 80% acetic acid. .....some one who knows this plz help...

Anyway thx to you all...im in learning mode so any help is greatly appreciated. ..

Cheisenberg - 27-10-2015 at 03:28

Hello, I saw your question and jumped immediatelly. Firstly, if you want to make %15 peracetic acid, you have to use GAA and min %50 H2O2. There has to be more less water in medium if possible. Water in solution converts PAA to acetic acid and h2o2 because of balanced reaction. I did this reaction and analysed. When I used more water, I could PAA max %6. And also important thing is that you have to use stabilizer. Do you use any stabilizer?

[Edited on 27-10-2015 by Cheisenberg]

[Edited on 27-10-2015 by Cheisenberg]

zed - 27-10-2015 at 15:21

Further, that extra water might cause solubility problems.

At a certain point, water may render your reaction media, too polar to dissolve iso-safrole.

SunriseSunset - 28-10-2015 at 13:05

I'm pretty sure it would work. I've used 80% formic acid and 35% hydrogen peroxide many times with no problem. However, since Acetic acid is far weaker of an acid than formic, You'd want to use the right amount of H2SO4 Catalyst, and know how to remove the catalyst afterwards. There's many references on how to "neutralize the H2SO4 catalyst" afterward.

You might want to work with another alkene as I'm sure you know isosafrole is pretty much illegal everywhere, if you don't have proper licensing.

If you can't just get formic acid, then instead try making your own GAA. I'm sure it's not hard. You'd just need a lot of ice for cooling all of your apparatus to keep too much of the odor being air-born.

Most likely if you tried using 80% acetic acid, it would probably increase the reaction time by some unknown factor, and if you didn't run tiny experimental trials to determine the proper reaction rate, the yields in return will be crappy and have either lots of byproduct or mostly unreacted stuff.

[Edited on 28-10-2015 by SunriseSunset]