Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Is there anyone who can Identify what this substance might be?

Is there anyone who can Identify what this substance might be?

wish i had a kraken!!! - 14-6-2015 at 06:42

Hi , I have a question for you guys , the pictures shows a substance which is believed to be explosive ; though I don't know its type I just know it melts when it exposed to heat (I haven't measured its mp ) , What are your guesses ?

[Edited on 14-6-2015 by wish i had a kraken!!!]

[Edited on 14-6-2015 by wish i had a kraken!!!]

Hennig Brand - 14-6-2015 at 07:52

Knowing at least an approximate melting point would help a lot. Also, if we knew where it was found or what it came out of it could give some clues. It has a coloration that could indicate TNT, but that doesn't mean that it is since TNT can be a lot of different colors (edit: and some of those colors could be shared by other compounds as well).

[Edited on 14-6-2015 by Hennig Brand]

Microtek - 14-6-2015 at 08:00

Technical TNT would be my initial hypothesis as well. Try putting a little in boiling water to see if it melts at less than 100 C (and whether it is soluble).

wish i had a kraken!!! - 14-6-2015 at 08:30

OK guys I'll try to measure its melting point .

wish i had a kraken!!! - 14-6-2015 at 09:27

Quote: Originally posted by Hennig Brand

. Also, if we knew where it was found or what it came out of it could give some clues.

A friend of mine gave it to me. He claims when he was doing his military service , their commanders gave them orders to destroy some disposed rockets(he says the fuselage of the rockets bared marks of corrosion ) ,So, First they defused the rockets and then pilled them up in a hole - a few meters deep hole which a man could get inside it and come out of it without using rope or ladder - made them ready for controlled detonation , but before doing it when he throw one of the rockets in the hole it cracks open and he had a chance to gather the material which emerged out of the cracked rocket before the explosion .

He doesn't remember the model of the rockets unless he remember they were solid fueled rockets.

[Edited on 14-6-2015 by wish i had a kraken!!!]

Turner - 14-6-2015 at 18:30

That would appear to me to be TNT or possibly a TNT based substance if you are sure it is the explosive component of the rocket.

Try burning one of those tiny pieces, you would observe black smoke, test melting point etc. Here is some TNT I made a while back:

TGT - 14-6-2015 at 19:17

Kind of looks like ammonium picrate I made a while back, just a suggestion. but I don't think they use it anymore.

tgt

kecskesajt - 16-6-2015 at 00:39

It might be TNT/RDX
http://www.weaponsindia.com/images/explosives3.gif

wish i had a kraken!!! - 16-6-2015 at 01:34

Guys I measured it's melting point .It started melting at 83 Celsius (~181 Fahrenheit ) degree

The picture shows the apparatus I used to measure the melting point of the substance.

The picture shows 0.2 grams of the substance inside a test tube right before it starts melting.

The picture shows the substance right after initiation of melting.

[Edited on 16-6-2015 by wish i had a kraken!!!]

wish i had a kraken!!! - 16-6-2015 at 01:57

Quote: Originally posted by kecskesajt

It might be TNT/RDX
http://www.weaponsindia.com/images/explosives3.gif

Dear friend I think U are right but I measured its melting point and it is 83 Celsius (TNT's mp) , Now I wonder if it is TNT/RDX then why its melting point is equal to TNT melting point ?
Do U know the melting point of TNT/RDX (40/60 respectively) composition ?

[Edited on 16-6-2015 by wish i had a kraken!!!]

Turner - 16-6-2015 at 08:19

You might try hammering a very small piece of the material? TNT alone will not detonate from a hammer, if there is 60/40 RDX/TNT you might get a detonation of a tiny piece amount with a heavy blow although maybe not, worth a try though. I was able to hammer detonate roughly 80/20 of RDX/plasticizer if a very small amount was used, meaning a lot of energy from the hammer goes into a small piece of material causing it's detonation.

I could never hammer detonate any amount of picric acid or TNT when I tried however.

[Edited on 16-6-2015 by Turner]

wish i had a kraken!!! - 16-6-2015 at 11:24

Quote: Originally posted by Turner

You might try hammering a very small piece of the material

[Edited on 16-6-2015 by Turner]

Do U know any chemical which I could use as TNT or RDX indicator ? and what U mean small amount ? Do U think 0.2 grams is enough just like the amount I used for measuring its mp ?

[Edited on 16-6-2015 by wish i had a kraken!!!]

Turner - 16-6-2015 at 12:16

just a small chunk like in your pic doesn't really matter how much I would say between 10mg and 100mg I would imagine that RDX/TNT WOULD be hammer sensitive but TNT alone probably not as for the exact composition of what you have and the ratio of material, that might be a bit more tricky. I am not sure on that, maybe someone else could chime in

Bot0nist - 16-6-2015 at 13:03

High purity and fully nitrated picric acid is sensitive to a strong hammer strike on steel consistently, IME. The color seems wrong though. Also, it doesn't seem quite red enough to be ammonium picrate. Not really sure though. Finding out some more physical and chemical properties will help a lot. What are its solubilities, decomposition point, how does it burn, etc?

wish i had a kraken!!! - 16-6-2015 at 14:22

Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist

how does it burn ?

it burns like the way Phenol dose .

[Edited on 17-6-2015 by wish i had a kraken!!!]

kecskesajt - 17-6-2015 at 01:00

If it has a Mp of 80 C degree it should be TNT.

wish i had a kraken!!! - 17-6-2015 at 01:38

Quote: Originally posted by kecskesajt

If it has a Mp of 80 C degree it should be TNT.

It sounds right , yet it does not justify reddish brown color .

Hennig Brand - 17-6-2015 at 04:49

That reddish brown color is fairly typical of the grade of TNT that is typically found in munitions. The color can vary as well; no two samples are ever probably exactly the same shade.

kecskesajt - 17-6-2015 at 06:39

Quote: Originally posted by wish i had a kraken!!!

Quote: Originally posted by kecskesajt

If it has a Mp of 80 C degree it should be TNT.

It sounds right , yet it does not justify reddish brown color .

A short anwser: Impurities.

Molecular Manipulations - 17-6-2015 at 10:16

Take a grain of rice sized piece and 'stick' it to a hammer head. Strike it on a steel plate as hard as you can. This is a very safe way to see if it will detonate.
Now either result won't prove the chemical, but it will narrow it down. Knowing the approx. sensitivity is very important even if you don't know the composition.

Fulmen - 17-6-2015 at 12:22

Isn't there a "Websters test" using ethanol saturated with sodium hydroxide?

Molecular Manipulations - 17-6-2015 at 13:10

Not unless you're telling OP to eat his explosives and then piss in cup.

Fulmen - 17-6-2015 at 13:20

Sure? I was sure this test was used to identify explosives as well.

Edit: Only found this reference on it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webster%27s_reagent

Pretty sketchy info, but worth a shot.

[Edited on 17-6-15 by Fulmen]

wish i had a kraken!!! - 17-6-2015 at 19:59

Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen

Sure? I was sure this test was used to identify explosives as well.

Edit: Only found this reference on it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webster%27s_reagent

Pretty sketchy info, but worth a shot.

[Edited on 17-6-15 by Fulmen]

I will try it , after my trip . :-)

Turner - 17-6-2015 at 20:02

Quote: Originally posted by wish i had a kraken!!!

Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen

I will try it , after my trip . :-)

I hope your referring to a vacation trip

Molecular Manipulations - 17-6-2015 at 21:15

IWIHAK seems like a very energetic guy... and while drugs that cause tripping tend to increase your 'energy', he seems smater than that.
I wouldn't be suprised if there's quite a few 'coke-heads' on this board. Just saying, it's not nearly as bad as meth IMO (not that I've done it!)

Fulmen - 17-6-2015 at 21:57

I would have tried it myself by now if I wasn't fresh out of NaOH. The chemistry is sound, the urine-test is performed by extracting it with ether and seems to be sensitive to both TNT and several of it's metabolites. So it should work on pure TNT as well.

kecskesajt - 18-6-2015 at 00:32

Also,ask some girls if they could give you a 3 cm long nail for scientific purpuses.Try to make a sat. sol. out of it and see if it stains the nail.

Fulmen - 18-6-2015 at 10:50

It's confirmed. A "pinch" of NaOH was added in excess to 96% ethanol and dropped on to a small grain of TNT. The grain turned dark (almost black) instantly and stained the solution strongly red/orange.

Fulmen - 19-6-2015 at 02:33

Not only does it work, it seems to be quite sensitive. A small piece of TNT was rubbed gently against a piece of paper. One drop of Websters reagent (90/10 95%EtOH/NaOH) dropped on the paper instantly gave a strong dark red color where the TNT had been in contact.