Sciencemadness Discussion Board

How do I get started? What equipment/chemicals do I buy?

Rapunzel - 5-7-2006 at 00:47

I've had a deep interest in chemistry for a long time. Due to external problems I've not been able to find free time to do any learning. Now things will change. I will have lots of free time and want to dedicate most of it to chemistry, leading to organic chemistry in the future.

I have a few books, now I want to setup a lab in my house. What equipment and chemicals should I start off with? The cheaper the better, but if it's worth it, I'll just pay the extra money for it. I am in the States, so for now, only list chemicals that are legal here please.

My main purpose in setting up a lab is not to synthesize anything specific, but just to learn more about chemistry in general. Mixing stuff and seeing reactions would motivate me to spend my full time on this, as opposed to just sitting around reading books.

YT2095 - 5-7-2006 at 01:12

there is no ONE or Short answer to this question.
but a Good idea would be to buy a basic Chemistry set, you get a few interesting chems, some basic glassware a little spirit burner etc...
often they come with a little booklet explaining some of the experiments you can do with these and places to get further chems from.
very soon you`ll become a Label-Reader :)

neutrino - 5-7-2006 at 02:33

Chemistry sets today are useless. They’ve been made “safe” to the point of containing no chemicals but borax and Epsom salt. Their equipment is just plastic stirrers and cheap well plates. And those experiments pale in comparison (both by size and “coolness factor”) to anything we do.

Your money is better spent on test tubes and beakers, in my opinion. Spend your time reading the forums (here and roguesci.org) and you’ll be reading labels in no time.

YT2095 - 5-7-2006 at 02:55

Im guessing then your laws are far more stringent than UK laws are regarding basic chem sets, granted todays kits are nowhere near as good as the used to be, but even a cheapo set here (Argos or Toy`r ` Us) have a few reasonable chems in there.
it`s a fair starting point for a novice.

I agree with your point about reading here, simply cutting to the K3wl stuff without the foundations behind it is courting disaster, he`de do well to wear out the search engine button for a while ;)

neutrino - 5-7-2006 at 07:19

Chemistry sets are not empty these days primarily because of laws.

Consider the case of fireworks in some states. Some stupid kid holds an M-80 too long or stares down the nozzle of a bottle rocket and gets hurt. Naturally, the kid's mom goes on an anti-fireworks crusade, using public hysteria and, of course law suits, to ban certain kinds of fireworks forever. Living in the age of mass hysteria [think of the children!], truly absurd litigation, and soccer moms (as most people from RS will tell you), this kind of BS tends to get through and spoil things for all of us.

A similar thing happened with chemistry. Dangerous chemicals and stupid kids combined with mass hysteria --> no chemicals. That includes chemistry sets, school labs, internet retailers, etc.

Chemist514 - 5-7-2006 at 09:06

The chemistry set path...
Thames and Kosmos Chem C3000 (I bought this for the kids and myself...) google it, should teach me enough to start reading General Chemistry by Petrucci 8th edition.. I hope.
I found 3 short texts ive been using to guide my purchases so far, they are How to Make and Use a Small Chemical Laboratory, The Golden Book of Chemistry Experiments, and a not so short list of "Readily Available Chemicals" put together by some Chris Benton, real nice collection.
I suspect a Merck Index and CRC handbook are real nice. I have not bought them yet but will very soon.

All the best!

The_Davster - 5-7-2006 at 13:12

That C3000 does look interesting. If I was just starting and wanted to start with a prepackaged set, I would get that. But then again, I would prefer to start with the chems and equipment for one favorite experiment, then grow from there. Repeat. Eventually you will find that with what you already have you can do much.

YT2095, last time I opened a chem set, the 'glassware' was a plastic microwell plate, the most interesting chemical was a tiny ammount of impure diluted cobalt chloride, and it even stated 'No heat needed!'. Something like that sold for almost 100$ CDN. With that money one could go over to somewhere like Elemental, or Cynmar, and get something with a bit of fun in it.

Chemist514; The creator of the 'Readily available chemicals' site is a member here.

Flip - 5-7-2006 at 21:08

Typically, you'll need a number of flat bottom flasks, graduated cylinders, burets or addition/ separatory funnels, a standard distillation kit which would contain a couple of flasks and the adapters... let's see, it's handy to have a hotplate/stirrer combo, or heating mantle. Generally if you have this equipment laying around you're good to go for most small projects that come to mind.

I wouldn't waste time or money on the chemistry sets on the market today... you'll save in the long run from chemical supply houses and OTC materials. Before handling any chemical, make sure to request it's MSDS (material safety data sheet) and review it carefully.

And a suggestion for a field of interest - bioluminescent organic compounds, such as luciferin... i've been meaning to give that one a go for some time. It would be awesome to have some bioluminescent or chemiluminescent lamps.

Anyway, be sure to shop around, and know what it is that you want, and what it is that you can use... lord knows I have adapters and columns and such still lying around that have never seen the light of day. You'll save a lot of money by planning the purchase around the projects, as opposed to planning the projects around the purchase.

Flip

Chemist514 - 5-7-2006 at 21:33

Quote:
Originally posted by rogue chemist
That C3000 does look interesting. If I was just starting and wanted to start with a prepackaged set, I would get that.

The kids freaked out! I needed a quality time item. and also something I could maybe continue with on my own from a hobby standpoint.

But then again, I would prefer to start with the chems and equipment for one favorite experiment, then grow from there. Repeat. Eventually you will find that with what you already have you can do much.

I took the list of included items as my to get list. So i had the manual, a source of info... and gear to work with. as i dont know much yet. lol 800 bucks so far in reagents alone though.. gets costly this lab building.

YT2095, last time I opened a chem set, the 'glassware' was a plastic microwell plate, the most interesting chemical was a tiny ammount of impure diluted cobalt chloride, and it even stated 'No heat needed!'. Something like that sold for almost 100$ CDN. With that money one could go over to somewhere like Elemental, or Cynmar, and get something with a bit of fun in it.

I almost gave up... I ended up getting the C3000 thing from some place in toronto, as all the local sets were in this sad series and style.. I am sure with the U.S placing restrictions on potassium permanganate (spelling?) my set will be gone very soon too (what i had to go through..) its a copy of a set sold in germany, last of the old school style chemistry sets I guess, translated and resold to the north american market.

Chemist514; The creator of the 'Readily available chemicals' site is a member here.

This guy is amazing. I have started to look much more seriously at this option, some of the items I managed to get off that list are fine, ie: sodium bisulfate from pool supply... MSDS says 99-100%..

atarax - 6-7-2006 at 20:15

A still setup. You can set up a regular still to either distill or reflux, depending on how you connect the parts. A stir bar, you can make a plate. A variac, a bowl, oil, and some coiled wire to make a heating bath. A thermometer. A water aspirator. Buchner funnel. Filter flask.

The still is the most important thing - since chemistry is basically illegal, you're going to be using it for a while to purify the crap at the hardware store before you can actually run a reaction. Get a long vigreux column.

Chemist514 - 6-7-2006 at 21:11

Sorry about the butchered post...
Remind me not to use the "quote" feature ever again. Thanks.

The_Davster - 6-7-2006 at 21:21

Quote:
Originally posted by atarax
since chemistry is basically illegal,


No, just no.


CHEMISTRY IS NOT ILLEGAL, sure the cooks and kewls give it a bad name, but if you avoid such areas, they have no right or jurisdiction to arrest you. This is the way I have been keeping my chemistry for the last couple years, pretty much everyone I know knows I do chemistry as a hobby, have I had anything bad happen to me? No. I have no problem telling people my hobby, its better that they know it right away, then find out much later causing them to go "whoa, I've known you for how long and just now I find out you have a lab? What the hell are you doing with a lab man?" Just yesterday, a friend mentioned my lab, and I had completly forgotten I told her a long time ago.
Sure I have my bouts of paranoia, but I like to think, that because what I do is legal, to the best of my knowledge, that law enforcement will realize this and I am in the clear.

Ok, back to labware, my rant above should be in a completly different section, but meh.
Just get the basics to start off with, beakers, flasks, measuring devices for liquids and solids, heating equipment.
A distillation kit will come in handy eventually, but it is not the first thing I would buy if starting again. For many applications, hardware solvents are fine especially for general use.
I stand by my idea of getting whats needed for a first experiment, and then building from there. It gives your lab more character than if everything came from a big supplier at once. Makes for some nice nostalgia in your lab. I'm not sure I am articulating this correctly, but it makes your lab feel more 'yours'.

EDIT: regarding using the quote button, to start one use [qu ote] and to end use [/quo te] minus the central space of course.

[Edited on 7-7-2006 by rogue chemist]

[Edited on 7-7-2006 by rogue chemist]

evil_lurker - 6-7-2006 at 21:57

The three most important things when it comes to chemistry is to be able to heat, stir, and distill.

Your distillation apparatus will be the backbone of your lab. I'd start off by buying a complete distillation set up from www.unitedglasstech.com off their ebay store. Tell them you would like to upgrade the flasks to 2000ml and 1000ml. Grab an extra 500ml and 1000ml round bottom flask while your at it. And if you happen to get a screw type thermometer adapter get the one with the teflon bushing. Be sure to grab a tube of high vacuum grease and 10 pack of keck clamps also. Once you get that you will be able to do simple distillations and reflux reactions. Be prepared to plunk down around $300 for all of it, but trust me it will be the best money you can spend.

Then buy yourself a cheap fisatom hot plate with magnetic stirrer from www.cynmar.com, an extra stand, some extension clamps and 90 degree clamps for cross braces. Once you get this, you will be able to heat and stir whatever your working on. Makes doing reactions go much smoother with better results.

Next, work on gettting a vacuum station set up with an aspirator. This will let you distill high boiling materials without decomposition.

Then add some other goodies. Look up scoutmasterken on ebay, he has some killer deals on vacuum buchner funnels and addition funnels. Get yourself a 400mm coil condensor and claison adaptor off of ebay while your at it. Snag a vigreux column too.

Later on you will probably want some gas wash bottles... you can have UGT to manufacture you some fritted gas tubes that fit 24/40 flasks for around $40 or so each.

Its all expensive as hell but once you get everything you can pretty much do any reaction you want.

[Edited on 7-7-2006 by evil_lurker]

neutrino - 7-7-2006 at 07:26

If you're not willing to spend that much money, you can always improvise some equipment. For example, there's a simple DIY reflux setup in the prepublication section of the forum that costs much less to build than a jointed glass setup. Many other things have also been discussed here and at roguesci.org, including heating mantles, condensers, reflux columns, aspirators, etc.

If you find that your improvised equipment is ever lacking, go ahead and upgrade to the “real” stuff.

nk - 7-7-2006 at 09:45

A lot of good advice here. I especially like Flip's. Some of these suggestions of things to buy I think are over the top for now. You can add stuff to your collection as you go along or as you find that whatever would be handy. It's easier to decide what you equipment you need if you know what kind of stuff you are going to focus on. I really liked doing stuff out of ancient (1860s) chemistry books.

Basic glassware is cheap, cheap, cheap, especially compared to other things. But you don't need much to start with. Don't muck around with tiny glassware. 50ml is really the smallest size that anyone should need for basic stuff. Buchner funnel setup would be very handy. I don't think you need to focus as much on distillation as a lot of people have said. Get a condensor so you can reflux and do simple distillation. This should go without saying, but be sure to get some stands/clamps.

In my experience, as long as you aren't doing anything questionable/illegal (i.e. synthesis or extraction or even taking of scheduled/controlled substances or specific precursors--Don't even think about making Phenylacetic Acid for example.) and you do a little bit of leg work, it's not hard to get chemicals. Yes, I live in the States. By the way, I think they're overpriced, but I looked at unitednuclear.com the other day and was astounded at some of the stuff they are selling. And they wonder why they've come under fire?

If you don't have one already, try to get a hold of a Merck Index. I loved reading that book as a kid. It'll get you thinking about things you might want to synthesize and it's a very good reference. They can be had pretty cheap if you get an older edition (not too much changes) from a secondhand bookshop.

A lot of universities put their lab handbooks for general chemistry and organic chemistry online. You should be able to search and find expiriments that you can do with a basic setup.

Good luck.

[Edited on 7-7-2006 by nk]

It Depends

hodges - 8-7-2006 at 06:37

If you want to do organic chemistry then yes a distiller and glassware are essential. However if you are interested in inorganic then special glassware is not really necessary. I presently own almost no special labware. I use ordinary food glasses and an ordinary measuring cup for liquids. I store compounds I make in ordinary plastic containers that used to hold buillon cubes. To evaporate water for crystalization usually I just wait the 2 weeks or so necessary for it to evaporate into the air. If I'm in a hurry I put it in a regular kitchen oven using ordinary Pyrex glass from the grocery store. Of course, once you use something to store any chemicals in you should never use it for food again.

I do have some test tubes for heating things, but until recently when I got an alcohol lamp I used a candle as the heat source. And I do have some large veterinary syringes (60 ml) for gas experiments. But that's about all, and I've done plenty of interesting experiments described elsewhere on this board. Of course I have eyedroppers and pipettes but those are very cheap.

One thing that is essential is a scale. For me, a $40 digital scale that reads to 1/10 gram has worked just fine. I'm not sure what the advantages of a beam balance are given the present state of technology in digital scales. They probably have more resolution than 1/10 gram, but I could get an electronic scale with 1/100 gram resolution for $100.

When I first started reading the board and doing experiments 2 1/2 years ago the first thing I bought was a selection of chemicals - from sources such as the hardware store and E-Bay. As I used these I saw the need for a scale and of course other chemicals.

As far as chemistry being an expensive hobby, it has not been for me. I have a number of hobbies I've been active in in recent years. These include electronics, computers, ham radio, microcontrollers, and photography. I would estimate that I have spent under $1000 on chemistry since I started working with it 2 1/2 years ago. By contrast to get started in photography an entry level digital SLR camera is likely to be close to $1000 by itself. Special-purpose lenses are hundreds of dollars each on top of this. I spent several thousand dollars on equipment in the first two years after I became a ham radio operator. I spent thousands of dollars building computers (although granted I sold them when I was done and got most of that money back). Only electronics (and microcontrollers, since I already had a lot of the equipment needed from electronics) cost less for me as a hobby than chemistry.

Hodges

JRistau81 - 13-7-2006 at 00:08

Here is an awesome ebay store for equipment. http://stores.ebay.com/AVOGADROS-LAB-SUPPLY
Great service and products

woelen - 13-7-2006 at 02:06

What is important for you strongly depends on what you want to do. As evil_lurker mentioned, equipment for heating and stirring is important, but that can be as simple as a little alcohol burner and a glass rod when you want some test tube experiments and experiments in small beakers and erlenmeyers. It can also go as far as digitally controlled ovens, oil baths, sand baths or even more fancy stuff, if you want to do all kinds of syntheses. Also distillation apparatus only is needed if you want to do syntheses of all kinds of chemicals.

As I understand from you, JRistau81, that it not (yet) the level at which you will be working. If I were you, I would start very modestly and first built up more knowledge and obtain basic skills. I have written a page on starting up a simple home lab for a reasonable amount of money, still allowing quite some interesting chemistry experiments, and also in a safe way.

http://woelen.scheikunde.net/science/chem/misc/homelab.html

When chemicals are carefully selected, following some of the rules, described on that page, then you already have a LOT to explore for not too much money.

I myself also purchased that C3000 chemistry set from eBay for just EUR 100. That is a very good price for this set. Occasionaly look at eBay and check for that. It can save you a lot of money, compared to buying it in a shop. Indeed, the C3000 is one of the better chemistry sets to start with. No real replacement for a home lab, but it has some decent glassware, a fairly large set of chemicals (although some chemicals are supplied in too small amounts to my taste) and a safe to use alcohol burner (which I still use many times as a convenient and easy to use source of heat in test tube experiments).

Chemist514 - 14-7-2006 at 21:53

I have a couple questions about my starting list... which is the stuff in our chemistry set by some odd chance.

Experiment Manual : I will get a real text asap, like general chemistry 9th, the instructors edition for extra help, merck index, crc handbook, then some organic text from vogel when we mastered that?
Eight Test Tubes : They didnt have singles of 18x150.. I got 8 19x150... oh the horror. :>
Two Pipettes : Not bought yet. they come in several types.. im not sure whats most general use. I did buy a couple syringes and droppers, and a graduated cylinder. any ideas?
Sodium Bisulfate : pool supply, found.
Sodium Carbonate : pool supply, found.
Potassium Hexacyanoferrate(II) : I bought this at a supplier.. alot of $ (if I had to resort to this ill put a ! near it from now on..)
Ammonium Iron(III) Sulfate : !
Ammonium Chloride : !
Copper(II) Sulfate : hardware, found.
Phenolphthalein Solution : not found yet.
Hexamethyl-eneteramine : camping, found.
Calcium Hydroxide : I cant find it... I so dont want to pay 40$ for a cement component. rage.
Sodium Bicarbonate : drugstore, found.
Tartaric Acid : Ill end up buying this one I bet....
Luminol Preparation : Ill have to buy it.
Potassium Hexacyanoferrate(III) : !
Calcium Sulfate : plaster of paris, I went with polyfilla brand, that ok?
Iron Filings (Iron Powder) : I will have to buy...
Potassium Permanganate Preparation : !
Activated charcoal : pet store, found.
Ammonium carbonate : !
Potassium iodide : !
Potassium bromide : !
Potassium permanganate : !
Sodium thiosulfate : Not found.
Sulfur : drugstore, found.
Zinc powder : Ill have to buy this... my battery idea was not good enough, rolling up the zinc and filing..
Screw-top Jar : I bought a couple nice ones..
Test Tube Rack : not yet, I want wood.
Two Measuring Cups : not a problem. got beakers though.
Two Cup Lids : see above.
Measuring Spoon : ok, this 1 scoop, 2 scoop crap had to go fast, we got a small .1 accuracy 150gram digital balance. and I got a spoonula donated.
Test Tube Brush : donation, we'll need a couple of sizes and types though soon.
Carbon Rod : batteries... got a few.
Plastic Basin : bought a few.
Safety Lid Opener : this is for the original chemical containers, very safe. but annoying.
Four Wires : I bought some wire. earth shattering.
Copper Wire : !
2 Bags of Magnesium Strips : camping, found. I'll need the ribbon though...
Protective Safety Glasses : a pair each, hard to find some a 10 year old doesnt hate. wow.
Light Bulb (3.8 V) : I found a wood block and small socket and made a nicer rig for this setup.
Rubber Stopper : I need to find a source for singles...
Two Cork Stoppers : as above
2 Pointed Glass Tubes : Got glass tubing, this is not an easy skill to master by any means.
2 Angled Glass Tubes : as above.
Filter Paper : !, got coffee filters for less demanding work.
Two Plastic Bottles with Caps : I bought alot of amber 1 litre bottles.
Plastic Funnel : I got a glass filter funnel donated , and broke it, had to buy a new one. first broken item.
Alcohol Burner : !
Wooden Test Tube Holder : to hold one at a time, i got a metal one.
Litmus Paper, Blue : holding out to this stuff is used up.
Heating Rod : I will buy some glass beads or something
Labels : I'm using first aid tape and a marker for cd's.
Graduated cylinder : ditched the plastic. !
Lab stand : got a real one donated, 2 even and some clamps etc. plus a bunch of rod and connectors for that flexiframe sandbox stuff. seems interchangable so far.
Erlenmeyer flask : !
Iron wire : anyone know a otc for this?
Two pieces of rubber tubing : got some
Tripod stand platform : !
Plastic straw for syringe : not much I can do, ill look around
Bag of small parts : not required.
Rubber stopper with one hole : grr
Rubber stopper with two holes : grr again, need a couple, not a pound.
Acute angled glass pipe : working on it.
Wire mesh : donated some from fisher.
Evaporation dish : I need some of this bad.
Small bottle for silver nitrate solution, the bottle was easy, the 70$ for 25 grams hurt. !
I managed to dig up a couple watch glasses, petri dish,
small battery jar, small crystalization dish (after trying the ammonium nitrate cleaning)
various tubing and rod, glass.
lieburg condenser 300mm (no ground fittings though, for tubing.)
I will need a burette.
every chemical I can find.
I got alot of odd stuff donated to add on, but I dont know much yet so it doesnt matter.

one thing I did need was a dessicator, I am using a clear plastic tupperware with calcium chloride in it.

All the best... a compiled and checked by some folks with experience list of gear would be very very handy. let me assure you.

[Edited on 15-7-2006 by Chemist514]