Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Copper and zinc sulfate fumes warning!!!!

I boiled a beaker that had a solution of copper (ii) sulfate, and a little zinc sulfate. And I must have stayed too close to it, because in the middle of the night I woke up with the "zinc chills" and now I have metal fume fever, 101 or 102F. Luckily zinc fever goes away pretty fast. Starting to get better, I had to stay home from school. And I'll probably have to spend the rest of my life getting cancer screening, since there was copper in there too.

I'm just thanking my lucky stars that I didn't inhale enough to get severe metal toxicity coma. It wasn't even in the MSDS!

[Edited on 26-1-2015 by Cou]

If you believe that, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell to you.

You simply can't get a disease from being close to a copper sulphate/zinc sulphate solution.

You're suffering from something else and need to see a doctor.

"It wasn't even in the MSDS!" Because being around such solutions doesn't pose a health risk!

[Edited on 27-1-2015 by blogfast25]

macckone - 27-1-2015 at 10:17

Zinc has to be heated to over 787C to become molten
and once molten you have to breath a fair amount of vapor.
Although you could have inhaled some of the copper sulfate
or zinc sulfate before it was in solution, the quantity is
probably insufficient to do harm.

In any case as others have said. SEE A DOCTOR.
And when you go make a list of all the chemicals that
you used for the three days before symptoms started.
It sounds like a virus but it could be chemical exposure.
It just seems unlikely to be metal fume fever.

Zombie - 27-1-2015 at 10:29

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

This comes full circle to a very real point. Perhaps the moral of this post...

There are lots of experiments throughout this forum, that I would love to replicate. I am in the process of stocking up on what I consider the "basics".
You all make these experiments sound, and look quite simple, and almost any goof ball that can follow direction, can do what is posted all around the forum, and the internet.

Here's the moral... If you do not understand the compounds / processes / resultant materials, and the resultant by products COMPLETELY... You most likely should NOT be attempting any part of this. Right down to, and including possessing any chemical. I have learned enough to know that simply storing two benign substances in the same vicinity can /will create a completely new, and potentially lethal compound.
I value what is left of my health, and my life so researching completely before purchasing or attempting any process is the first item on my "to do " list.

Follow my lead here Cou. I/We would all like to see you enjoy this hobby for many, many years to come.
Who knows... You might just be the guy that develops a cure for Zinc Sulfate sickness.

blogfast25 - 27-1-2015 at 13:19

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie

You might just be the guy that develops a cure for Zinc Sulfate sickness.

"Zinc sulfate is the inorganic compound with the formula ZnSO4 as well as any of three hydrates. It was historically known as "white vitriol". It is a colorless solid that is a common source of soluble zinc ions.[3]

It is on the World Health Organization's List of Essential Medicines, a list of the most important medication needed in a basic health system.[4]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_sulfate

[Edited on 27-1-2015 by blogfast25]

Zombie - 27-1-2015 at 13:34

It was a "tongue in cheek" comment.

My apologizes if it was miss-leading... Please don't attempt to cure us of health Cou.

Cou - 27-1-2015 at 15:06

Just posting to confirm that I'm alive

Fever is all gone and I feel normal, except my mouth tastes like metal throughout the day (seems to get better when I drink lots of water)

I read that zinc in the body is short-lived and has a biological half life of 4 months, 1 month for copper, unlike lead which stays in your body for decades (i won't touch any soluble lead compound with a 60 foot pole). Some remedies suggested to me are garlic cloves, activated carbon, and parsley

[Edited on 27-1-2015 by Cou]

[Edited on 27-1-2015 by Cou]

blogfast25 - 27-1-2015 at 15:19

Some remedies suggested to me are garlic cloves, activated carbon, and parsley

And don't forget rosemary and thyme. :mad:

No zinc ever entered your body, so STOP crapping on about that. This is supposed to be a forum about science, not about your petty belief systems.

[Edited on 27-1-2015 by blogfast25]

Zombie - 27-1-2015 at 20:28

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I53HMZLrts

Etaoin Shrdlu - 27-1-2015 at 22:28

Some remedies suggested to me are garlic cloves, activated carbon, and parsley

Oh nooooooo, you told armchair nutritionists about potential "heavy metal poisoning." Shred your documents. Head for the border. Don't stop.

woelen - 27-1-2015 at 23:27

Just posting to confirm that I'm alive

An do not forget: These remedies only work at full moon. You're lucky, we have full moon after just a few days!

Darkstar - 27-1-2015 at 23:39

Some remedies suggested to me are garlic cloves, activated carbon, and parsley

Is this a science forum, or the health section of Yahoo Answers?

Seriously, dude, no offense, but I think you're kind of overreacting. You were heating copper and zinc sulfate, not metallic mercury... If you're really that concerned, go see a doctor.

gardul - 28-1-2015 at 00:40

If you really had this issue; I must be glowing with 99% chance of cancer. since 99% of my experiements deal with copper, zinc, aluminium or ammonia and a combo of all the above. My advise is go see a doc. They are would know more than us anyway. it is on the other hand the season to be sick. Woelen is right though. you would need to heat that solution well above 700C for it to MAYBE cause in issue. and if you don't belive us try this.

make a solution of Copper II chloride. Distill it. Add ammonia to end product. what happens? nothing...

Amos - 28-1-2015 at 04:59

Sounds like you're suffering from hypochondriasis if anything, unless there's some other chemical you were exposed to and not telling us about. I'm very concerned that you are treating garlic, parsley, and activated carbon(What the heck would the carbon do in this case?) as reasonable solutions to a potential medical problem. This is quack medicine. When you inahle a heavy dose of nitrogen dioxide somewhere down the line, wolfsbane and cranberry juice aren't going to help you, I'm sorry to tell you. That's the point that you go see someone who has spent a large fraction of their life studying the SCIENCE, instead of reading through medieval fairytales.

blogfast25 - 28-1-2015 at 06:36

Quote: Originally posted by Darkstar

Seriously, dude, no offense, but I think you're kind of overreacting.

That's the understatement of the week.

AJKOER - 28-1-2015 at 13:19

Just posting to confirm that I'm alive

Fever is all gone and I feel normal, except my mouth tastes like metal throughout the day (seems to get better when I drink lots....

Glad to hear it, but is there a count down clock somewhere?

More seriously, do it yourself home chelation may turn into your biggest problem!

Your kidney is a fragile organ and even professionals, with frequent montoring of blood chemistry, still manage to kill people.

Pasrules - 28-1-2015 at 13:44

Always drink cows milk after any experimenting. In Australia chemical workers get 500ml of milk allocated to them per day as it is supposed to acts as a chemical sponge then passes out of the body.

Also all most all MSDS state "do not induce vomiting" however drinking milk and then vomiting is very beneficial in the reduction of chemical poisoning.

Source: My father who worked in a paint resin plant (lots of isocyanates).
Bach industrial chemistry.

Note: Some of the chemicals he engineered didn't have a MSDS so when workers had exposure a courier from the local hospital would have to retrieve his notes on the substance.

So don't always expect that every detail possible will always be avaliable on an MSDS especially when substances may take 40+ years to become carcinogenic.

A carcinogenic substance is the initiator however it won't cause a cancer until it comes into contact with a promoter.

Source: My Pathological basis of disease class observing Myoxoma in the Australian rabbit population.

blogfast25 - 28-1-2015 at 15:15

Always drink cows milk after any experimenting. In Australia chemical workers get 500ml of milk allocated to them per day as it is supposed to acts as a chemical sponge then passes out of the body.

Skimmed or full cream? In that bled I live in we only have goat's milk. Am I f*cked?

[Edited on 28-1-2015 by blogfast25]

Cou - 28-1-2015 at 15:59

My main concern is that I might have inhaled copper (ii) sulfate mist while boiling a solution. If I go get a blood metal test and it says I have high copper, I dun fucked up for life, apparentally copper in the body has a half life of 33 days, but it can stay embedded for a while... or I'll find out it's just a flu and I can finally have some peace of mind.

[Edited on 29-1-2015 by Cou]

[Edited on 29-1-2015 by Cou]

Etaoin Shrdlu - 28-1-2015 at 16:39

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

Always drink cows milk after any experimenting. In Australia chemical workers get 500ml of milk allocated to them per day as it is supposed to acts as a chemical sponge then passes out of the body.

Skimmed or full cream? In that bled I live in we only have goat's milk. Am I f*cked?

[Edited on 28-1-2015 by blogfast25]

Udderly.

gardul - 28-1-2015 at 17:07

My main concern is that I might have inhaled copper (ii) sulfate mist while boiling a solution. If I go get a blood metal test and it says I have high copper, I dun fucked up for life, apparentally copper in the body has a half life of 33 days, but it can stay embedded for a while... or I'll find out it's just a flu and I can finally have some peace of mind.

[Edited on 29-1-2015 by Cou]

[Edited on 29-1-2015 by Cou]

Let me state this again.

copper ion's doubtfully left the solution. I gave you an example earlier too. If you are ill from this then I must be "Flipping" made of copper by now. Trust me, Copper Ion's dont easily leave the orginal soultion. I have tried countless times to actually disprove that. It just doesn't happen with simple low level heating. And even at high temps I don't think they would escape easily ether, Unless you are putting the copper directly to a heat source. TRUST US! But because I think you have some nasty virus, you should still go see a doc. When you get a chance, I would recomend you doing the expierment i noted above. it will ease your mind.

blogfast25 - 28-1-2015 at 17:23

The vapours (steam) coming off a boiling CuSO4 solution basically contain NO copper because the partial vapour pressure of CuSO4 in the steam is basically zero. EXTREMELY low.

'Mist', as in an aerosol of fine solution droplets would be a different thing but it's very unlikely you will have inhaled that w/o noticing that. Extremely so in fact because you would immediately recoil at the unpleasantness of that experience.

Have the tests done and be done with it!

Quote: Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu

Udderly.

Cowpletely.

[Edited on 29-1-2015 by blogfast25]

Cou - 28-1-2015 at 18:26

My dad is making a doctor's appointment. Hopefully the blood metal test isn't too expensive... I'm starting to wonder if i'm just making up symptoms in my head now (ever heard of the nocebo effect?)

Thanks for the cow jokes to lighten a scary situation.

[Edited on 29-1-2015 by Cou]

Darkstar - 28-1-2015 at 18:27

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

Skimmed or full cream? In that bled I live in we only have goat's milk. Am I f*cked?

You're probably fucked either way considering Wikipedia's article on metal fume fever suggests that the cow's milk remedy is basically a load of horseshit anyway.

Quote:

Treatment of mild metal fume fever consists of bedrest, hydrate with plenty of water, and symptomatic therapy (e.g. aspirin for headaches) as indicated. In the case of non-allergic acute lung injury in the setting of metal fume fever, a standard or even recommended approach to treatment has not been studied.[12]

A traditional remedy is to consume large quantities of cow's milk, either before or immediately after exposure.[1] However, this advice is challenged by the United Kingdom Health and Safety Executive (the national independent watchdog for work-related health, safety and illness), who write "Don’t believe the stories about drinking milk before welding. It does not prevent you getting metal fume fever."[13]

@ Pasrules:

I'm not calling your father a liar or trying to say that he is wrong, or anything. I can honestly admit that I don't know enough on the subject to make any such claims; however, that is what I found. Don't shoot the messenger.

Cou - 28-1-2015 at 18:29

Unless you are putting the copper directly to a heat source.

What does that mean? Putting the copper sulfate crystals DIRECTLY in the flame?

gardul - 28-1-2015 at 19:06

Unless you are putting the copper directly to a heat source.

What does that mean? Putting the copper sulfate crystals DIRECTLY in the flame?

I mean copper it's self. You would need to heat copper to 700C+ to even get it to fume to remotely have a health effect i would assume. In solutions, Copper ions don't travel through fumes/vapor. ( at least for sulfate and chloride solutions). I have tried many many times. Very little escapes if any.

I'm just saying, I highly doubt you got sick from this. Just my 2 cents.

Cou - 28-1-2015 at 19:15

Unless you are putting the copper directly to a heat source.

What does that mean? Putting the copper sulfate crystals DIRECTLY in the flame?

So you've heated solutions of soluble copper salts to their boiling point (when it starts bubbling)? I'm talking about mists of a solution, not necessarily pure gaseous CuSO4 fumes, which aren't a risk unless you get far above the boiling point of water.

[Edited on 29-1-2015 by Cou]

gardul - 28-1-2015 at 19:20

Unless you are putting the copper directly to a heat source.

What does that mean? Putting the copper sulfate crystals DIRECTLY in the flame?

So you've heated solutions of soluble salts to their boiling point (when it starts bubbling)? I'm talking about mists of a solution, not necessarily pure gaseous CuSO4 fumes, which aren't a risk unless you get far above the boiling point of water.

[Edited on 29-1-2015 by Cou]

[Edited on 29-1-2015 by Cou]

That's my point. The steam from your solution wouldn't carry copper or Zinc ions. So you wouldn't have been able to inhale them. Unless you actually drank the solution. Depending what was in your solution, is what you actually inhaled.

Darkstar - 28-1-2015 at 19:34

My dad is making a doctor's appointment. Hopefully the blood metal test isn't too expensive... I'm starting to wonder if i'm just making up symptoms in my head now (ever heard of the nocebo effect?)

Thanks for the cow jokes to lighten a scary situation.

[Edited on 29-1-2015 by Cou]

I'm sure you're going to be just fine. Even though it's highly unlikely that you were actually poisoned, making an appointment with your doctor was probably the best course of action. If you say you're feeling sick, go see a professional and find out what's going on. If nothing else, it will give you peace of mind and allow you to get back to experimenting! There's never any point in wasting time second guessing or trying quack remedies like garlic cloves and parsley if you truly believe heavy-metal poisoning is a real possibility.

And don't let us giving you a hard time discourage you from posting in the future. It's always better to ask if you have questions or concerns about your health or the safety of an experiment. I'm sure just about everyone here at one point or another has been worried that they might have inhaled or ingested a potentially toxic amount of something. We've all been there. I remember feeling just like you're feeling now after experimenting with elemental mercury for the very first time. I started reading all about how toxic its vapors are and how careful you need to be when working with it, only to end up making myself paranoid that I had been poisoned. I started looking for symptoms that simply weren't there, attributing every little thing I could find wrong with me to mercury poisoning.

gardul - 28-1-2015 at 19:42

Quote: Originally posted by Darkstar

I would agree. Mine was ammonia actually. I had a leak in a tube and a mishap that spread ammonia + H2O vapor all over. I feel really ill within the next few hours after cleaning up. Really was just a nasty virus. realzing everyone at work and my wife's work was getting sick.

Pasrules - 28-1-2015 at 21:38

@Darkstar
Milk is basic which stops the stomach acid from turning isocyantes into hydrogen cyanide.

It was actually the workers union that demanded milk be supplied.

and skim milk was type however udderly and cowpletely had me laughing.

[Edited on 29-1-2015 by Pasrules]

CuReUS - 28-1-2015 at 23:41

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knudson_hypothesis

A carcinogenic substance is the initiator however it won't cause a cancer until it comes into contact with a promoter.

could you please tell more about this,i didn't know this fact

I thought only those people get cancer who have the specific gene.But according to the Knudson hypothesis,almost anyone can get cancer

macckone - 29-1-2015 at 00:55

Try a good whiff of chloroacetone.
toxic and carcinogenic .
although there is no evidence it caused my cancer.

cancer is usually genetics and environmental not one or the other.

Pasrules - 29-1-2015 at 04:05

A neoplasm (early cancer) won't occur unless the correct conditions are met. For all intensive purposes I am talking about inducing a cancer however this does apply to hereditary cancers aswell.

The following must be met in the correct order:
1. Exposure to the initiator (carcinogen)
2. Exposure to the promotor which allows the initiator to cause a neoplasm within a cell.
Source: Australian rabbits where tested by painting their skin with myxoma virus which had no effect until a promotor was added and it also had no effect if done in the incorrect order.
3. Propagation the neoplasm reaches a cancerous stage where it is performing biology functions that are not typical of that tissue type.

This is why some people who have a family history are given a "chance" of getting cancer because an event must occur which changes the way the cell replicates this can be based on a biological clock due to epigenetics but more often than not it requires some form of promotor.

Source: my pathological basis of desiease, cell biology and functional proteins and genes classes.

Heathly tip: Chemists always eat their cereal, keep regular fiber in your diet as it reduces the time for a stool to pass which in turn reduces the chance of any carcinogenic substances within the stool to have affect aswell as the milk thing I mentioned earlier.

Cancerous substance of the day: ethelyene oxide, used for sterilisation. The first time I have ever been in a lab with two air locks. Causes sterility, birth defects and cancer.

Psssst ADMINs make a medical thread so we have something to reference in case of our ourselves or others becoming poisoned. I can guarantee someone has gotten sick without going to hospital on fear of legalities and members like Cou can have something more personal to refer too rather than generic chemical advice found elsewhere. Anyone agree?

[Edited on 29-1-2015 by Pasrules]

blogfast25 - 29-1-2015 at 07:38

I'm starting to wonder if i'm just making up symptoms in my head now (ever heard of the nocebo effect?)

Thanks for the cow jokes to lighten a scary situation.

No, it's a form of 'confirmation bias' (but that is very related to the placebo effect).

1) You were close to a hot CuSO4 solution and are vaguely aware of copper's toxicity

2) You got ill somehow, almost 100 % certainly unrelated to the CuSO4 solution

3) Your mind adds two to two and gets five, attributing the symptoms to the copper

4) Further superficial reading on the dangers of copper further reinforces your new found belief system ("symptoms are caused by copper poisoning")

It's a classic case of self-deception. Very common in its many manifestations.

[Edited on 29-1-2015 by blogfast25]

Etaoin Shrdlu - 29-1-2015 at 10:48

That's what the nocebo effect is. Someone's exposed to something that they associate with bad side effects, then start attributing/relating symptoms to it. Basically the opposite of the placebo effect.

zed - 31-1-2015 at 15:12

Zinc? It takes some. You may remember the craze 20 to 30 years ago, wherein Zinc was being touted as a cold remedy. 11 mg tablets, as I recall. Supposed to belay an oncoming cold.

I suppose it may be worse to inhale the vapor. At the local stove shop, they voice this warning...."Don't use Galvanized for stove pipe." It is quite tempting, as black stove pipe is very expensive and Galvanized is very cheap, but substituting one for the other can result in metal fume fever. A condition that can persist until ALL of the Zinc on your stove pipes, is long gone. Cheaper to just buy the right kind of stove pipe; imagine the medical bills you could acquire, trying to diagnose a chronic mysterious malady.

Plenty of ways to get poisoned around the lab, other than Zinc. Simply boiling some in H20, well, it ain't likely.

Zombie - 31-1-2015 at 15:18

Now the guys gonna have a stroke...

Back to square one. I do hope your over it Cou. Best to ya for real.

macckone - 31-1-2015 at 15:31

Zinc is still sold as a cold remedy.
It is one of the only ones that is even somewhat effective.
It slows the replication of the virus and causes a shorter
milder illness if given early enough.
It has also been shown to be effective against some cancers.

CuReUS - 1-2-2015 at 04:15

IIRC,the zinc used for cold remedy is in the form of citrate,gluconate or chelate ,not direct Zn metal

its like telling salt is bad,just because it has Na and Cl

Metal fume fever

Shivachemist - 1-2-2015 at 20:37

Well, metal fume fever is rare. Of course, it does not happen to all. It depends on the individual and the rate of exposure. It mostly happens only when a person working a lot with metal powders or their oxides. I do not think other compounds of a metal will have the same effect on you. I had some breathing difficulties once when I was working with Copper oxide. It lasted nearly for an hour. It was really irritating. That's why we should avoid windy situation when we are handling metal powders and their oxides. We won't like them when they get into your nose.

Random - 4-2-2015 at 11:47

Reading through this thread dash of homeopathic medicine would cure the problem.

macckone - 4-2-2015 at 12:11

Zinc gluconate and zinc citrate are used to treat colds, but not by inhalation.

One interesting side note is that inhalation of zinc oxide builds up a tolerance.
Ie. brass foundry workers would experience metal fume fever after
work on monday and then be fine the rest of the week.

Metal fume fever used to be fairly common in brass foundries.
It probably is still common but they are all in china now, so
the problem isn't getting reported.

Welders get metal fume fever when welding galvanized metals
without proper protection. One would hope they use proper
protection and ventilation but since it still happens they obviously
don't.

I would not say it is uncommon or hard to get in the right conditions
but welders are trained about the dangers of galvanized metals.
And as I said most brass foundries are now in china.

Chemosynthesis - 5-3-2015 at 03:21

Drinking milk doesn't assist with metal fume fever, nor does milk serve as a sponge. Union contracts, laws, etc. don't need to match scientific fact to be written. In this instance, milk is ingested and fumes are inhaled. The average alpha half life for absorption is essentially always lower for inhalation all administration. This means absorption is always (? Can't think of any exceptions) faster, and incidentally has nothing to do with gastric content any more than IVing a substance would be impacted by co-ingestion of the antidote during the latency to onset. Absorption for ingested substances is predominantly a factor of gastric transit time, highly influenced by gastric opening.
Stomach acidification can also vary somewhat considerably depending on how much base is consumed, but I highly doubt enough milk could be ingested to neutralize stomach acid without triggering stretch receptors to release more acid predominantly through enterochromaffin like cells. Even extended release antacid formulations don't last very long relative gastric opening times. The protein content could increase gastric emptying, and the liquid could dilute an ingested poison, but this is different.