YT2095 - 21-6-2006 at 11:11
is anyone here also working on similar projects?
care to share your results and methods?
I have one that I`m currently constructing 29x29x29 triangular, I havene`t worked out the height yet, but it`s currently also 29cms (using BBQ kebab
skewers and super glue).
I have a 36KV CW voltage multiplier, but I know that they work down to 20KV also and up to about 50KV.
so, design techniques and observations would be most welcome 
12AX7 - 21-6-2006 at 13:25
Two aluminum grills, plus maybe some thin paper (wrapping paper perhaps) to direct airflow.
It's an ionic wind. I don't see ANYTHING special about the common line-and-plate assembly. Seems to me a case of "monkey see monkey do", where
people try something because it looks cool, but don't offer any particular improvements to the crux of the function.
It's like all those people building Tesla Coils haphazardly and getting sparky results, versus those few who research, analyze and engineer the last
few feet of spark out.
Tim
franklyn - 21-6-2006 at 17:03
Constructuion of a device to employ Biefeld Brown effect is much
more of an art than practical engineering. Here are the best links
on the topic ->
http://www.blazelabs.com/l-intro.asp
http://xxx.lanl.gov/ftp/physics/papers/0211/0211001.pdf
http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/main.htm
http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/story.htm
This yahoo group is a mixed bag of experimenters some are cogent
and others come from another solar system I know not where.
Before I left I recall one who thought that a high voltage supply
with power source can be made to weigh one gram per watt , and such
a device weighing as little as 200 grams in the 20 kilowatt range
is technically feasable and soon to be available. Mmm yes maybe
lithium 6 fissioned with Californium 252 , right.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lifters
.
YT2095 - 22-6-2006 at 02:12
are you Certain it`s Ionic wind?
surely if that were soley the case, the polarity would be an issue, and yet it appears Not to be the case.
I`m sure there would be some ionic wind, but not enough to lift the device in a purley Newtonian manner.
my plans include running the thing upside down, just to see if it exerts force along with gravity, everyone seems to focus on Lift, how much (if any)
pressure would it push down with on scales?
Do powerfull magnets interfere with the "field" produced, like it does with electrons in thermionic valves and CRTs etc...
I think it`s worthy of exploration and experimentation.
DrP - 22-6-2006 at 03:04
No - it's definately ion wind - some guy done an experiment to prove it by encasing the equipment in a bag or something and got no lift at all.
see
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifteriw.htm
I do think it would be cool to make one for fun.
YT2095 - 22-6-2006 at 09:24
allow me to cite: http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0211001
in particular the Quote; " The calculations indicate that ionic wind is at least three orders of magnitude too small to explain the magnitude of the
observed force on the capacitor."
and so, untill I actualy get Hands-On experience and exact my OWN experiments and trials, I cannot say for certain who is Right or not.
I`ll keep an open mind, certainly, but as of yet I`m just interested in sharing results and comparing data independantly.
Kinda figured you guys may be up for a giggle too
I know Woelen`s ceratinly game to have a go and test this.
woelen - 22-6-2006 at 09:29
YT, I'm still waiting on all of my high-voltage stuff. The chinese stuff (high voltage diodes and caps) was shipped last monday, I expect it to arrive
at the end of next week. The 3300 V transformers and tubes, however, still are not shipped 
.
I'll certainly step into this nice stuff, as soon as my new toys arrive 
.
IrC - 22-6-2006 at 10:57
I built some giant ones using soda straws glues together, foil wrapped around the straws, and a very fine wire. I have been for a long time trying to
make a light enough supply with li-ion batts which produces enough power to make it all self contained. In this way I hope it will just leave the
earth since no leads need to be used or any tiedowns. Blaze Labs has a write up on a very well thought out, well designed experiment proving in a
total vacuum the lifter does not lift. I used to have high hopes mine would leave orbit but I guess this will not happen. Bummer.
Oh yeah I forgot: I did however get kickass good at designing and building very small knock your dick in the dirt HV supplies. Think tesla type
resonance in your little ferrite oscillators. The resosnant rise effect really does along with well laid out multipliers (oil is too heavy you need it
not to arc without using it) make for more juice. You will also find ring shapes don't have the edge effect corona losses that the triangles do, no
idea why everyone else uses only a triangle. Box kite shapes also work.
The ratios of conductor diameters plays a large part in how well the lifter works, two identical wires is crap. As to the tesla coil, someday I will
scan my notebooks, years spent taking efficiency in coil design to extreme limits. One coil I built had tolerances to a tenth of a mm so I could do
very accurate calculations to be able to compare circuit alterations and tuning which increased voltages to the maximum possible for the energy input
and physical size. If you ever see one of those old Nova shows with Robert Golka check out the coil he built at Wendover, that was back in the days I
helped him with designs and he used to come down to Phoenix and play all night in my yard with my coils. I have one pic of him leaning on my coil 5
minutes before he got thrown across the yard trying to prove how bad he was by touching the top terminal during operation. What he failed to take into
account was in this coil I was trying for very high current density in the output and the coupling was around 0.24. He got a big jolt from the pole
transformer I powered the coil with. I think it was a year or two before he didn't get mad at me whenever I mentioned that incident!
[Edited on 22-6-2006 by IrC]
YT2095 - 22-6-2006 at 23:38
Thnx, I was curious to know if the vacuum thing had been done or not, my plan was to put it in a fish tank and fill it wilth Argon or Helium and take
the charge close to breakdown voltages, making the corona and streams alot easier to see with the naked eye. I expect to get such a thing to work in a
vacuum you`de have to provide your own gas, but then by doing so, you`ve simply re-created the the Ion drive
as for the Tesla anecdote ROFLOL
the streamers near a high current source are lethal if it leaves a good enough conductive path, your friend was Very lucky indeed.
[Edited on 23-6-2006 by YT2095]
IrC - 23-6-2006 at 06:16
I would not give up as far as that test goes. We were not there and did not see how he conducted it. There could be other parameters, such as he did
not surround the device with enough free area. After all if it is some sort of space reaction drive then putting it in a tiny box in vacuum may still
alter the results. We need is to let one go from the space shuttle so it has cubic yards of free space around it. If it still failed to move I would
say blaze did a good test. Since Nasa has patents on a capacitor-high voltage thruster I think there is still room to believe the lifter may well work
in vacuum when ALL of the surrounding conditions are correct. You never know.
YT2095 - 23-6-2006 at 09:02
well I have a Hypothesis about the NASA patent and potential applications. they don`t ONLY send things into space, and so using the Wing of a plane as
the trailing edge of the cap and an thin wire offset from the leading edge (insulated obviously) there Could possibly some overall thrust or Fuel
advantage, perhaps even a stability or altitude advantage over the current designs of jet craft.
to Patent it, it has to be of Some Value somewhere along the line.
non the less, beyond a neat Party-Trick, it will make for good experimentation material
IrC - 23-6-2006 at 10:16
I have read probably everything on the naudin site many times. The problem I have is never is there an in depth write up with explanations, theories,
statement of what was expected and what was observed and why. In short just a bunch of pics of how to slop something together with no explanation of
what you (or they) are doing or why, nothing on what to expect, and so on. It would be nice to have seen talk on neutron production whether real or
imagined in the experiment mentioned for cold fusion. I think true science should also be about teaching others to replicate events and conveying
information on parameters and possible pitfalls, etc., simple items like hopefully it will not go nuclear if you up the voltage and such. Just seeing
a glow or heat in the cell does not tell me anything at all. If you wrapped electrodes around my head I am sure you would see heat and light upon
cranking up the juice but be real people. Would my eyes really be projecting a death ray of polarized neutrons wherever I looked?
Would I become superman? Or would I merely be just another idiot with a computer and a web site?
Going further, upon upping the voltage to my head would I really start believing that ejector thingie on my computer is something other than a cup
holder?
YT2095 - 23-6-2006 at 11:00
erm.... yeah, ok 
I think for now, I shall continue as planned Anyway. and perhaps others may post in here later with more cogent topic-related material 
IrC - 23-6-2006 at 15:59
So off topic but maybe not really, I was referring to naudin's lack of explanation whether lifters or CF or other topics on the site. I just thought
it would be nice if some good text went along with many of the projects there.
woelen - 24-6-2006 at 12:04
I see the point of IrC, there is a lot of stories around the lifter stuff, but no real theory and explanation. I'm planning to try this also when my
HV-stuff arrives, but I do not have the resources to do vacuum tests and other special things. I like YT's idea though to test, whether it can work
downwards as well.
Btw, today I noticed an effect of a news paper, going upwards, while I had a circuit (a series connection of a bunch of 3.9 M resistors, total length
of the string appr. 50 cm) lying on it, with 12 kV applied to it. I also heard a lot of hissing noise, coming from the circuit. I think it is some
leak-current, but I found the lifting effect on the paper very peculiar.
YT2095 - 25-6-2006 at 10:49
Excellent!
I`ve seen Wires "Twitch" also, the elctric discharge goes off with a BANG and the wire bounces, also petrol on a metal sheet attatched to one pole,
and used the other pole as the Chaser, and made several 10`s of arc and not once did it catch fire, it seemed to BLOW the liquid away from the chaser
probe, you had to be VERY fast to actualy make it ignite, sometimes even involing dipping the probe tip in a non charged seperate petrol vessel.
and interesting phenomenon that we did notice is that the mini stars used in some pyro payloads in rocket, although they burn very nicely when Heat
lit, will almost Detonate when subjected to a good HT arc, a Loud CRACK and bits flying around (bits fast enough to cut you or blind you! so wear
protective kit).
we have this on Video and were really quite astonished at such a reaction, it`s a good thing we tested this 1`st also, we WERE going to show my
friends Children the colors that come from these mini stars and use elec to ignite them.
[Edited on 25-6-2006 by YT2095]
IrC - 30-7-2006 at 20:45
http://www.rmcybernetics.com/science/high_voltage/voltage_mu...
A useful link on voltage multipliers.
franklyn - 5-9-2008 at 14:02
*Note if these hyperlinks do not download
copy and paste the url into your browser's address bar instead
Asymmetrical Capacitors for Propulsion
http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/reports/2004/CR-2004-213312.pdf
Exploratory Research on the Phenomenon of the Movement of High Voltage Capacitors
http://www.space-mixing-theory.com/article2.pdf
and this posted previously
Force on an Asymmetric Capacitor
Best original copy still available here
http://xxx.lanl.gov/ftp/physics/papers/0211/0211001.pdf
and here
http://jlnlabs.imars.com/lifters/arl_fac/0211001.pdf
government source for same ( poor copy )
http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA416740
or here
http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA416740&Loc...
.
DrP - 5-9-2008 at 16:30
Thanks Franklyn - thats realy interesting. I'd not read those before.
franklyn - 3-8-2014 at 20:17
www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-07/31/nasa-validates-impos...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EmDrive
Anomalous Thrust Production from an RF Test Device Measured on a Low-Thrust Torsion Pendulum
( The PDF is just the same text here ) http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=20140006052
Over done skepticism and all the other links
http://space.io9.com/a-new-thruster-pushes-against-virtual-p...
.
• Update
franklyn - 2-5-2015 at 08:05
http://www.theverge.com/2015/4/30/8521691/nasa-seemingly-imp...
Related thread
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=61134
_____________________________________
Investigation of ' Warp Drive "
www.inquisitr.com/2048998/emdrive-nasa-may-have-just-acciden...
www.extremetech.com/extreme/184143-nasa-unveils-its-futurist...
.
aga - 2-5-2015 at 13:24
Well, it will come one day : the realisation that all of our thinking is done from monkey brains on a small planet way out on the remote edge of an
insignificant galaxy.
It's a big Box, so understandably hard to think Outside of.
The Enormous ape problem is that our minds are 99% pegged to Time.
Things appear to happen in Time (Rates, Speed, Life etc).
They don't. Time is merely 1 facet in the matrix of reality, and the one our species evolved to base out minds upon.
Imagine how a ball thrown up in the air looks like over the few seconds it takes to reach you.
Now try to imagine what that looks like if you are observing this event when your perception is pegged not to Time, but to the Y axis.
As it reached it's zenith, it would appear to be frozen for a few mm (in the Y axis) although in X, maybe Z and Time it would move on.
Personally i believe this is the biggest hurdle we (as a species) have yet to overcome - our own evolved dependance on Time to formulate
thoughts/perceptions.
aga - 2-5-2015 at 13:52
Further burble :-
A Particle.What is it ?
A Thing that exists. What does that mean ?
It alerts our senses, or fabricated sensors in a span of Time sufficient for us to detect it's effect.
So, we need to involve Time to ascertain it's Reality : if it happens too fast, it does not exist.
Imagine that particles exist, and i'm pretty sure they do, and they occupy several dimensions : X Y Z and Time - we like those as we evolved to know
those quite well.
Add in Gravity, Electrical Charge, Magnetic Charge and probably a few others as extra dimensions (we have not discovered them all).
Now assume that Energy is the total amount of Expression in each dimension this particle has. It can swap from X to Y to Electrical if it likes :
Energy is conserved, just expressed more in Z than say Y, or Magnetic.
An Engine needs to do what ? Move a pile of particles from XYZ to a different XYZ.
All Engines try to do that by focusing the change in XYZ of one set of particles in order to cause an opposite/directed change in XYZ of a bunch of
other particles, with it's Success measured by the resulting change measured as an X,Y or Z change over Time.
If, by manipulating say the Magnetic component of a particle we could bring about a state-change such that it swapped it's current Magnetic expression
for more Z expression, then the particle could be 10 light years Up in it's Z expression, with no effect on it's Time expression = instant travel (for
that particle).
Random womblings maybe, but that's my view on Reality.
(Dark matter ? It is fairly static in Time, yet will be swapping around in it's other dimensions - it is there, but we cannot detect it with our
inherent Time fixed perception model.)
franklyn - 9-6-2015 at 03:52
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/benjamin-t-solomon/hondas-grav...
Independent Confirmation
franklyn - 26-7-2015 at 09:42
http://nextbigfuture.com/2015/07/direct-thrust-measurements-...
If you don't look you can't find
franklyn - 15-8-2015 at 21:06
A rare account of an original pursuit discarded by conventional thinking
Inertial Propulsion - Eric Laithwaite
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dy6hLZ02naM
This attempts an explanation
Anti-Gravity Wheel ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeyDf4ooPdo
Anti-Gravity Wheel Explained
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLMpdBjA2SU
The chief enemy of creativity is ' good ' sense.
— Pablo Picasso
Isaac Newton had the good sense to practice alchemy in secret.
A grounded overview of various proposals
Exotic Propulsion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vk8SrDVhNnU
blogfast25 - 16-8-2015 at 09:50
It’s come to the point where when a scientist/inventor is called (or calls himself) a ‘heretic/maverick/crank/etc’ franklyn then naturally
assumes that person must be ‘right’ or ‘onto something’.
But of course it ain’t necessarily so at all. Some ‘inventors’ do come up with crackpot ideas that demonstrably don’t work. And all
invention/discovery benefits from scepticism/scrutiny, lest we just blindly accept any wild claim.
The videos perceived by franklyn as attempts to explain Eric Laithwaite’s claimed discovery are nothing of the sort: that rotating masses show
counter-intuitive behaviour (that doesn’t ‘break’ any laws of physics) is well known to anyone who has played around with a toy gyroscope. An
‘antigravity device’ this does not constitute, of course.
Paranoid and conspiratorial minds like franklyn probably see great significance in the simple fact that nearly 20 years after Eric’s demise his
‘discovery’ still hasn’t made it into any significant propulsion system yet but the simpler explanation that it simply doesn’t work should not
be dismissed out of hand.
York Dobyn’s interesting presentation does in my view also not support that Eric was onto something.