Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Binaries ( reactive targets)

Binaries ( reactive targets)

Canuck - 27-5-2006 at 16:51

Ok, well I am not new to chemistry and do indeed like experimenting..
Here are some projects that I have tried shooting at:

1) Ammonium Nitrate and Peroxyacetone dammped with a slight amount of water.
Detonated apon impact with a .22 at 150 yards!! BIG BOOM!

2) CuO/Al in an almost 55:45 mix deflagrated apon impact with a supersonic projectile..
.223 and 7.62x39mm works great.

3) Ammonium Nitrate and MEKP.. didn't work so well

inconsistant quality of MEKP!!

---- I am investigating other binaries mixes using Ammonium Nitrate that might be fun to try.. Anyone?

[Edited on 29-5-2006 by Canuck]

kazaa81 - 28-5-2006 at 05:40

Maybe I don't catch your idea.....but isn't that a big deal to detonate explosives by shooting at them.
Of course some explosives, like TNT or certain mixtures, are researched because a normal shot can't detonate them, making safe the transport.

You don't need "exotic mixtures" to detonate something by shot...any sensitive explosive will do.

Swany - 28-5-2006 at 14:21

Those are hardly exotic. Acetone peroxide (!) with ammonium nitrate, dampened, a common metal oxide and fine Al, and some more ammonium nitrate with another organic peroxide.

Canuck - 28-5-2006 at 18:38

Alright sorry.. but I want to put this post in the energetic material section beacuse this is what we are dealing with.

Exotic binary was probably a misnomer. sorry

Do you have anything for me to try that would involve Ammonium Nitrate.. any ideas.. other than what I have done so far?

Bert - 30-5-2006 at 06:03

Finely powdered Ammonium nitrate and Aluminum powder about 93:7 is a common mix for exploding targets. Unless other sensitizers are used, it will require a 2,000 fps+ projectile. Search on "Tannerite".

Canuck - 31-5-2006 at 19:46

hmm, well Aluminum power and Ammonium nitrate i have tried without success
I think a Chlorate has to be added. I have seen the tannerite page before, also boomer shoot.

What eactly is titanium sponge.. never heard about this before.. what is it?

Bert - 31-5-2006 at 20:40

(quote)
In industry, reduction of ores with carbon is not a useful option as intractable carbides are produced. The Kroll method is used on large scales and involves the action of chlorine and carbon upon ilmenite (TiFeO3) or rutile (TiO2). The resultant titanium tetrachloride, TiCl4, is separated from the iron trichloride, FeCl3, by fractional distillation. Finally TiCl4 is reduced to metallic titanium by reduction with magnesium, Mg. Air is excluded so as to prevent contamination of the product with oxygen or nitrogen.

2TiFeO3 + 7Cl2 + 6C (900°C) → 2TiCl4 + 2FeCl3 + 6CO

TiCl4 + 2Mg (1100°C) → 2MgCl2 + Ti

Excess magensium and magneium dichloride is removed from the product bytreatment with water and hydrochloric acid to leave a titanium "sponge". This can be melted under a helium or argon atmosphere to allow casting as bars.
(end quote)

Titanium "sponge" is a common way for us to buy our Titanium for addition to fireworks compositions. It appears as a grayish coarse powder, and has a large surface area due to the dissolving out of the Mg & etc. during the final refining process which makes it easy to get burning... We also buy Ti aerospace alloy turnings as scrap, these are a bit of a chore to comminute and screen into appropriate grades for our different applications. Think ball milling or hammer milling a very TOUGH material, then trying to screen into mesh ranges many pounds of the nastiest slivers and fish hooks you've ever had stuck into you. Sponge is a lot nicer to handle, and usually comes graded into mesh ranges from the suppliers.

Tannerite is supposed to have Zirconium hydride added. There have been a number of discussions on the veracity of the claim this is in the commercial product, as well as people both claiming to have achieved detonation of AN/Al mixes without it, while others are swearing that isn't possible. I have shot several Tannerite targets in complete darkness, and If there is TI in them, it is not much and must be VERY fine. They make no white sparks whatsoever in my experience- Tannerite quite definitely DOES have a liquid hydrocarbon added to the AN, regardless of the patent information. You can smell it.

Some day soon I hope to have time to try a few experiments.

Canuck - 1-6-2006 at 00:05

ah, I have seen a claim that Nitromethane is added to it, but that would seriously ramp up the mixes power.. maybe too much to be safe.. but if you can smell it i'd bet its a heavy hydrocarbon like.. Kerosene? perhaps.

Bert - 1-6-2006 at 14:24

I would bet that the manufacturer simply mills up pellite or a similar blasting agent for the AN part of the mix.

Boomer - 2-6-2006 at 07:55

"Aluminum power and Ammonium nitrate i have tried without success, I think a Chlorate has to be added"

... yeah of course, then wetted, stored, dried again and ball milled. Why not add NI3 while you are at it?

Sorry for the sarcasm but AN + chlorates are a NO-NO. They can react, forming ammonium chlorate which is unstable (can ignite or even auto-detonate at <70C). The person who runs Boomershoot knows this, but does it anyway. When I mailed him, he said he 'wont store it long'. They even had a mystery fire on the range after leaving damaged targets in the rain (moisture makes it worse).

Canuck - 2-6-2006 at 08:10

ah, no doubt. I was wonder how stable the Ammonium chlorate was.. and yes the owner of boomershoot got into some real shit over the fire. What other sensitizers are availible that are not this reactive. I use Peroxyacetone and have never had an issue. It works 100% of the time. They add Ammonium perchlorate as the sensitizer in tannerite.

.. Boomershoot adds "Nitromethane" to it... insanely Dangerous comes to mind.

neutrino - 2-6-2006 at 14:46

Ammonium perchlorate is stable, unlike the chlorate.

Perchlorate can sensitize AN? I didn't know that. How well do they have to be mixed in order to work?

Swany - 2-6-2006 at 16:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Canuck
Boomershoot adds "Nitromethane" to it... insanely Dangerous comes to mind.

Whats so dangerous about nitromethane? They add it to RC fuels, and it is hardly sensitive.

Nitromethane is about on par with TNT as far as shock detonatability is concerned.

[Edited on 3-6-2006 by Swany]

Canuck - 2-6-2006 at 18:46

Well its not the sensitivity I am talking about here it is the power.
I think other Ammonium nitrate mixes might be a little more "sane" to use.
This combination of NM & AN is used as a higher power substitute than TNT.
The idea behind exploding targets is to make a boom, not to tear the range apart.

Boomer - 7-6-2006 at 06:31

There seems to be a misconception here. Calling NM dangerous but using TATP yourself....

Also, aluminium gives more energy to the mix then does NM. The latter makes it faster, but since you cannot compact it to TMD to keep it bullet-sensitive you will not get the brisance ANNM is famous for (false hype mostly, Jerry sez 5.5-6 km/s, like a good dynamite). Unless you want a cutting action in the very near field, brisance is of no concern. Total energy is what determines air blast anyway.

BTW Jerry is the inventor of kinepack, and IIRC also at least the co-invertor of astrolite. Read his rants on a.e.e. if you want.

Canuck - 7-6-2006 at 16:04

well, I want to keep the range intact.. TCAP is safe as long as you know what you are doing with it. I have been making TCAP for 4 years now and never have I had an acciddent with it. When transporting it the addition of distilled water, cool temperatures 10-15c make for a safe way for getting to and from a range.. Dry the TCAP on a filter paper and mix with your Ammonium nitrate.

NM and AN is a good way to destroy range property and or cause damage to it. IT has a lot more pressure associated with it so a small range like mine ( 200yards) is innapropriate. I once tried it with 80% NM and AN in a 350g charge.. it was detonated with 100g of APAN out in front of the container.. I won't be repeating that one.. EVER..

the sound from 200yards away was like no other.. trees were doing the funky blast dance. . hence to say the explosion was reported to the police. YES even from a firing range it was WAY too loud and too powerful.

waxman - 31-8-2006 at 03:01

Canuck- that does seem a tad "excessive" for a gun range!
I've been using 10 ml of MEKP in a small plastic zip-loc bag, taped against some thin steel plate at 200 yds.
Here's a thought- in consideration of stable safe transportation, could I encapsulate the MEKP in ice?
Tricky part is getting the water frozen around the MEKP without compressing too much during freezing. Then the ice block (2-3 inches cube) becomes the target.
Any thoughts?

Swany - 31-8-2006 at 05:32

The MEKP would freeze as well. This could be good or bad depending on how you see it. Quite frankly, I do not know if it would detonate accidently, but I would not be the one to try it.

neutrino - 31-8-2006 at 07:05

I don’t know about MEKP, but NG is extremely dangerous when partially frozen. The reason is that while half-frozen, the NG is full of tiny crystals. If you bump them, one could easily break and detonate the entire batch. That’s why you NEVER work with half-frozen NG.

The same principle probably applies with MEKP. I wouldn’t take the risk.

YT2095 - 31-8-2006 at 09:26

how about RP and KClO3 powdered and mixed seperately in NC Laquer, you can combine the 2 mixes later and paint them on bits of cardboard, let them dry and you have a reactive target.

waxman - 31-8-2006 at 18:24

My MEKP doesn't freeze in the freezer overnight- stays oily liquid.
Thanks for the "partially frozen" warning however! I had not considered the crystals sensitivity near the freezing point.
The stuff does give a great boom when hit! Wouldn't RP and chlorate just flash in flame?

Bert - 1-9-2006 at 07:09

Quote:

Originally posted by waxman
Wouldn't RP and chlorate just flash in flame?

They explode with no confinement in very small quantities when dry. Google "Armstrongs mix". Do not experiment with more than sub gram quantities, and be prepared for it to go off at any time because IT WILL.

And I would not try mixing them damped with a liquid other than water, particularly a flammable one.