Sciencemadness Discussion Board - AC and DC Electrolysis

AC and DC Electrolysis

Milosko - 5-4-2006 at 23:08

Hi,
could you explain me difference between AC and DC electrolysis of silver electrodes in pure water ? i would like to obtain nanoparticles od silver in water, but DC electrolysis create only silver ionts.It is possible to use AC current ( polarity of the electrodes will be switched ).

Milos

Nerro - 6-4-2006 at 07:54

AC electrolysis is bullshit, if the polarity of the anode and cathode continually switch that means the accompanying (sp?) reactions also keep switching. Which basically means nothing will be formed because usually the products will react with eachother when the polarity swtiches.

If you want to make a colloidal silver solution you might want to try electrolysis of a AgNO3 solution with 20-30V DC. (or so wikipedia claims...)

If you're interested in a cool experiment try this:

Make a concentrated AgNO3 soln. and a concentrated glucose soln. Add the latter to the former and leave to stand for a while. The glass of the container will be coated with a mirror-like layer of silver. If you pour the mix on a piece of flat glass you can make an actual mirror this way.

unionised - 6-4-2006 at 09:24

AC electrolysis is not often useful, but it's hardly "bullshit". If I wanted to disolve some relatively unreactive metal in acid I might well get 2 lumps of the metal and put them in the acid with an AC voltage between them.
When the metal is positive it is atacked electrolytically. When its negative it acts as an electrode and hydrogen is evolved. The same happens at the other electrode.
The attack when it's positive is faster than it would otherwise be and the reverse reaction doesn't occur because it's easier to produce hydrogen.
The AC voltage has the advantage of not needing a rectifier.

A coloidal suspension isn't strictly a solution. It's possible to produce one by making an arc under water- I've not heard about it being done electrolytically.

I've never tried the experiment you sugest- I have always tried it in the presence of ammonia or (if I'm at work and doing it properly) with tertiary butylamine. I'm not sure it works very well in neutral solution

Douchermann - 6-4-2006 at 09:51

Nerro, that reaction you described is pretty cool. I've seen a flask with it done to it, but have not done it myself because of the price of silver nitrate and the lack of silver metal at my house.

Nerro - 6-4-2006 at 09:55

Yes... Now that I think of it I made a mistake.

Its not AgNO3 you need to use but Ag(NH3

2+(aq). So you could dissolve Ag2O in ammonia. Im not sure about AgNO3 That might work also...

[Edited on Thu/Apr/2006 by Nerro]

IrC - 6-4-2006 at 09:57

"If you want to make a colloidal silver solution you might want to try electrolysis of a AgNO3 solution with 20-30V DC. (or so wikipedia claims...)"

I would not make this using AgNO3 if you intend to use it for colloidal silver for health reasons. Just .999 fine silver wires are used with distilled water for this. Some people add sea salts or other ionizing non poisonous salts but certainly using AgNO3 would make a toxic soup.

NERV - 7-4-2006 at 07:01

My grandfather did allot of work with producing colloidal silver and although I do not have all the details on what he did I do know that you need high voltage, not amperage. It’s not a standard electrolysis in that you don’t want ions of silver you want ultra fine silver particles suspended in solution. He used a 10,000 volt neon sign transformer to produce an arc in a rapidly stirred water bath from a silver plate. This turned the silver into ultra fine particles for the colloid. I could possibly e-mail him to get his notes on the experiment.

Milosko - 10-4-2006 at 06:29

Interesting NERV, privide us some more details.

Milosko - 10-4-2006 at 06:39

IrC> Just .999 fine silver wires are used with distilled water for this
yes but this will create ionic silver which react in stomach with HCL and create dangerous AgCl i think...not very health

Nerro - 10-4-2006 at 07:23

Milosko that's a method of making colloidal silver. Ions arent present, jsut very finely dispersed Ag particals. And why exactly is AgCl dangerous?

praseodym - 11-4-2006 at 01:13

Ya, whats so dangerous about AgCl? AgCl is only harmful if someone is silly enough to swallow it (may cause argyria if ingested in large amounts). Well, it may be an eye, skin and respiratory irritant but it is not dangerous unless one is breathing in AgCl vapour, or dusts. Shortly put, AgCl is not known to be a dangerous compound, iirc.

Milosko - 12-4-2006 at 01:43

Quote:

Originally posted by praseodym
Ya, whats so dangerous about AgCl? AgCl is only harmful if someone is silly enough to swallow it (may cause argyria if ingested in large amounts). Well, it may be an eye, skin and respiratory irritant but it is not dangerous unless one is breathing in AgCl vapour, or dusts. Shortly put, AgCl is not known to be a dangerous compound, iirc.

If you make or buy ionic silver ( some people sell them as colloidal silver ) it react with HCL in stomach.But AgCl have no antibiotic effect, so you must use only colloidal silver ( nanoparticles, not ions ). Also AgCl stay longer time in our body than colloidal silver ( it could cause Argyria ).Silver chloride is "only" 30 times less toxic than Silver nitrate ( very toxic ).

[Upravil dne 12-4-2006 Milosko]

praseodym - 13-4-2006 at 04:21

Ya, i know, but that is only if AgCl is consumed, which should not happen unless it is a hungry chemist who has not eaten for days doing an experiment with AgCl

When i talked about AgCl being not dangerous, i am referring to its stability, reactivity, volatility and explosiveness. Yes, i acknowledge the fact of the toxicity of AgCl and have even heard of silver ions poisoning but like i have said, it only matters when it enters our body.

[Edited on 13-4-2006 by praseodym]

agent_entropy - 18-9-2006 at 22:01

I am trying to speed up reaction time for dissolving silver in nitric acid to make silver nitrate, so I thought that preparing colloidal silver and then adding nitric would be useful (greatly enhanced surface area = faster kinetics). I had also considered merely heating the reaction but I seem to recall reading that that tends to result in the evolution of NOx gases, something I would prefer to avoid.

I started reading about the preparation of colloidal silver and there was mention of the development of a yellow color in the water reportedly due to the scattering effect of the silver particles in suspension (makes sense logically, shorter wavelengths are scattered more easily, thus the suspension scatters the shorter wavelenghts but yellow makes it through).

I have observed the development of intense yellow color when dissolving silver in 70% nitric acid, maybe the acid is etching away nanoparticles of silver from the surface and they get suspended in the solution until they are fully dissolved by the acid, yes?

Addition of a few ml of 27% H2O2 makes the solution colorless again. (H2O2 initially used in attempting to speed up the reation)

So now I have a new idea, what if the electrolysis methods of preparing colloidal silver were used in conjunction with dissolving in nitric acid. Use silver for both electrodes, may have to dilute the concentrated acid slightly to make it a better electrolyte, would AC or DC be more effective?

12AX7 - 18-9-2006 at 22:25

NO2 gas in small amounts looks yellow.

Net H2O2 + 2NO2 = 2HNO3, more or less.

AFAIK, colloidial silver methods require a low electrolyte level. You'll just be electroplating it into, and out of, solution.

AC on two electrodes might work... *shrug* I've heard it works on platinum in HCl.

Tim

woelen - 18-9-2006 at 22:45

The intense yellow color in concentrated HNO3 is not due to colloidal silver, but due to dissolved NO2. At somewhat lower concentration, it also may look green, due to a mix of dissolved NO2 (brown) and dissolved N2O3 (blue).

Adding H2O2 simply oxidizes it to HNO3, as Tim pointed out. Hence the colorless solution after adding H2O2.

IrC - 18-9-2006 at 22:54

I do not see how drinking colloidal silver made with pure Ag wires in water is dangerous when mixing with HCl in the stomach. I should be dead now. I used to get colds and flus multiple times every year. I would even get the same one running around 2 or 3 times every so often, so weak has my immune system been all of my life. A few years ago I learned about CS and after researching all I could find online I built a generator with two .999 fine Ag wires running on 27 volts. My first batch (quart bottle) I made by running the juice for a little over one hour. At this time a severe flu was running around that they were warning about as it had killed several older people. One friend I knew who had it missed over a week of work he was so sick and having known him 20 years I can say he had strong and perfect health, above average. This flu kicked his ass. He said it took almost 3 weeks for him to be rid of all the symptoms he had been so ill. Mind you this information I learned a month or so later when I saw him after the day I built my first generator. Anyway, I was in K Mart buying a platsic bottle to go home and build the generator. Standing in line I was already ill with this flu, running a fever and soaking in sweat. After I made the first batch I drank about half of it and went to bed. The next morning I felt way better and by that afternoon I did not feel any symptoms at all. This had not been my first 50 years of experience with flu whether or not I had a flu shot that year, there were always symptoms getting over them for days, every time. Meaning every flu I have ever had has always left me feeling like shit for days after I got over the worst part, but not so this time. As to how I had felt the day before, I knew damn well this was a very bad flu I was coming down with. Next day, no symptoms at all. Very unlike any previous experiences in life. Years later to this day, I have never had more that the first signs of a cold or flu coming on, as each time I make a batch and dring half of it, usually 8 to 12 Oz. and the next day all signs of illness are gone. I have not had a single cold or flu in almost 10 years now!

Believe it or not, I am merely relaying my personal real world experiences here. I will say after much study mostly what is made in the solution is an oxide of silver. In any case I never take it all the time like many people do and I do not drink the very large amounts I have read about so many people doing.

I will say as much as they drink (some a gallon a month or more, they drink it every day) although I only would do so with much less and only when I thought a cold or flu was coming on or is going around, and none of them have ever been poisoned or even made slightly sick from drinking CS in the way I described making it. Not one report of poisoning is in existence for anyone to read as far as I can find.

Being a science minded person I always have reservations about being too cavalier with what I make and put in my body. I have never felt any stomach discomfort drinking colloidal silver, nor had any symptoms in any shape or form, ever. So as to how much AgCl is being made in my stomach either little to none or AgCl is in no way a poison. Choosing to believe what MSDS's say, I assume AgCl IS a poison. Therefore there can be little or no AgCl being created in the stomach from drinking the solution.

The problem comes from mixing CS with certain other substances. For example any acidic fruit or juice. Worse still, nicotine from puffing a cigar after drinking some CS. If taste is an indicator of danger I would say CS and nicotine team up to make something very bad to the health. CS also instantly reacts with vitamin C making some or other kind of hazardous waste. So the cure here is to drink only some pure water after CS to wash it down, and not putting any further hazardous waste into my system for a half hour or so.

To sum it up, so sorry, as a scientist I can say the data shows no significant amount of any poison produced from any stomach acid disaster. My data to back up this point is in these letters I am typing right now.

Bottom line is: I type, therefore I am not dead!

I might add however, I am sure making it from any compound of silver such as the nitrate and drinking it would soon kill you!

[Edited on 9-19-2006 by IrC]

not_important - 18-9-2006 at 23:24

Quote:

Originally posted by agent_entropy
I am trying to speed up reaction time for dissolving silver in nitric acid to make silver nitrate, so I thought that preparing colloidal silver and then adding nitric would be useful (greatly enhanced surface area = faster kinetics). I had also considered merely heating the reaction but I seem to recall reading that that tends to result in the evolution of NOx gases, something I would prefer to avoid.

The rate of formation of colloidal silver is so low that it is likely not significant compared to the rate of dissolution of silver in concentrated nitric acid. Normal methods create a few hundred parts per million of 'colloidal' silver in a few minutes, home units only produce no more than a couple of parts per million per minute. Nitric acid is going to produce many percent of AgNO3 in the same time. Drop one of the silver wires used in colloidal production into nitric acid and see how long it lasts. (this doesn't apply to the arc method, which has a higher rate of production)

If the normal electrolytic method of making colloidal silver could create much dispersed silver, all those people drinking it would be turning slate-grey.

Heating cause visible release of NOx because the nitrogen oxides are being produced at a faster rate; when cool or cold the lower rate allows both the diffusion into air of the NOx (low rate - not as noticeable) and the reforming of nitric acid from NOx, O2, and water at the surface of the acid.

agent_entropy - 19-9-2006 at 09:53

Thanks everyone. Very helpful. I didn't realize that nitrogen oxides could also be yellow in solution. I even understand exactly how the H2O2 helps now too. I also hadn't realized that the concentration of colloidal silver was so low.

Oh well, I'll just keep beating the silver into thin sheets and cutting those into little flakes (silver is from a 1 troy ounce bar, not little wires with plenty of surface area already...grrr...).

not_important - 19-9-2006 at 23:47

Quote:

Originally posted by agent_entropy...

Oh well, I'll just keep beating the silver into thin sheets and cutting those into little flakes (silver is from a 1 troy ounce bar, not little wires with plenty of surface area already...grrr...).

The old, traditional way for home experimenters to make silver nitrate started with dissolving a silver coin in nitric acid. The coin would dissolve in a few minutes, no more than a quarter hour; the coin was used just as it came out of a pocket except possibly for washing it to remove grease.

Which is to say, there's no need for all that labour. If you're having that much problem dissolving bulk silver, it sounds as if your acid is too weak.

For metals that you can melt, forming them into shot or mossy form is one way to increase the surface area. Pour the molten metal from a height, in a thin stream, into a deep, high walled container of water. It will spit hot water, wear goggles, gloves, and so on.

bio2 - 20-9-2006 at 04:58

I believe the key to making the so called nano particles is
to keep the current density very low The yellowish/golden color appears at around 12PPM.

Would need to check my notes but for two 45mm dia 5 nines silver coins spaced 12mm apart the constant current is held to 5.9mA. . At start up using double distilled RA water(<1PPM TDS) the current is about 0.25mA and climbs slowly to the 5.9mA constant current limit. 25.2 minutes is calculated for 1L but in practice takes about twice this long.

The process can be speeded up by using 25% or so of the 20PPM from the previous batch. Voltage varies from about
36V to 14-17V at the 20PPM cutof. A simple ACvoltage divider
using two LM317s as AC voltage regulator is used to test PPM.
Using the terminal voltage alone will reliably tell the PPM in
a calibrated system.

I can elaborate more if anyone is interested I started making it a couple years ago for my elderly neighbor who claims the
silver solution cured his skin cancer (red sores on the extremities.

YT2095 - 20-9-2006 at 06:19

AC is actualy beneficial in quite a few industrial applications of electrolysis (although not on 50/50 duty cycle that I`m aware of).
a 90/10 duty cycle often know as PCR (Periodic Current Reversal) is used in electroplating.
it`s also how you can manage to re-charge a regular Zinc/Carbon cell or even the Alkaline cells.

IrC - 20-9-2006 at 07:31

"I can elaborate more if anyone is interested"

Please do so, I find this most interesting. I would like a schematic and method of calibration if you can, this is something I have wanted for a long time. I believe your neighbor. The space station, space shuttle, and all Japanese public transportation (at least those with water available on board) filter their water through fine filters made of silver, so while the FDA does not approve many believe in CS. As to the FDA, we all know CS cannot be patented, cannot be trademarked by a company, so of course their money grubbing cronies disallow CS. Not surprising, they burned the books of R. Royal also. In short the FDA cannot get kick backs for CS so they must prove it does not work, to keep the population spending the big bucks for swill which kills thousands with side effects in the name of profit.

I have looked at methods using lasers to establish PPM, but nothing I have seen looks viable for the home experimentor and no easy way of calibration is around as far as I know.

not_important - 20-9-2006 at 08:49

There's a couple of problems with the CS work. One is that it covers effects that appear to span those of bulk silver, nanoparticles, and ions; down in the nano range things change from more or less bulk to single atom and ion. The second problem is that in vitro effects are being lumped in with external and internal in vivo effects.

Hydrofluoric acid, iodine, garlic juice, and conventional antibiotics all kill bateria in vitro. Few people would attempt to use hydrofluoric acid externally or internally for its antibacterial properties, those who do so will only try once. Iodine and garlic juice kill bateria on the body's surface without too much harm to the user. However neither used internally really does the job wanted, to get concentrations high enough to kill the bateria generally means getting concentrations high enough to kill the host's cells. Antibiotics take advantage of differences in the biology/biochemistry of the bacteria and host, being more toxic to one than the other or by affecting a pathway lacking in the host.

Bulk silver does show bacterialcidal and bacteriostatic effects. It is used as a water puriifier, but so are ozone and chlorine gas. It is a long leap from those bulk effects to an internal medicine to take on bacteria. Silver compounds have long been used on the skin for killing bacteria, as has iodine. Again, a big difference between that and internal use.

In both cases there is a difference in the relative amount of silver or silver salts, from the baterias point of view. Again, those are external applications where at the most peoples' skin is exposed to the agent.

Claims for internal effectivity haven't addressed how clusters of silver atoms get into the bloodstream from the GI tract. Relative toxicities aren't relly described.

Indeen, the claimed focused toxicity is a problem; 'bad' bacteria are affected much more than 'good' bacteria or host cells, cancer cells more than non-cancerous, and viruses are targeted too. While there are possible mechanisms for more or less such effects, when I read something like "viruses are destroyed as a result of the silver positive ion causing the viruses internal protoplast to collapse" I have some problems accepting the explanation, especially when elsewhere it is claimed that the effects of CS are not from ions.

Better research, less magic bullet claims, and better explanations of mechanisms would likely help in the acceptance of CS. Note that CS could be patented, not the general concept but specific preparations and methods of making them, a number of medicinal agents claim and in some case seem to be more effective than just any old form of compound X; there would be money to be made if CS worked the way it is claimed to.

Nerro - 20-9-2006 at 09:13

I read a while back that a special (and pretty pricy) type of socks has been developed in the USA what has Ag wire in them which keep bacteria from multiplying so as to prevent smelly feet and some skin disorders.

Might it be possible to make colloidal silver adhere to socks strongly enough for the socks to have a similar working? I imagine you don't need an especially large amount of Ag for that.

YT2095 - 20-9-2006 at 09:53

they also do special gause and even plasters (bandaids) with silver in it now, quite pricey, but seemingly effective, esp when you consider that the NHS has taken this onboard as a viable product too. the NHS are the least likely to ever be accused of wasting money, they could drop a penny and catch it before it hits the floor!