Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Austrian Law

Austrian Law

BJ68 - 10-12-2014 at 23:16

According with the EU directive 98/2013 the Austrian government is changing the local chemistry law.

See (in German):
http://www.parlament.gv.at/PAKT/VHG/XXV/I/I_00371/index.shtm...

The possession, handling, production and use of chemicals with higher concentrations as in annex I (98/2013) is for members of the general public forbidden after the transition period until March 3 2016.

Violations of this law will be prosecuted with at least 500 Euro fine....

Here the text:
36. als Mitglied der Allgemeinheit einen Ausgangsstoff für Explosivstoffe oberhalb der in Anhang I der Verordnung (EU) Nr. 98/2013 festgelegten Konzentrationsgrenze – oder, falls für einen in Art. 4 Abs. 3 angeführten Ausgangsstoff eine Ausnahme durch eine Registrierung gemäß einer nach § 10 Abs. 3 erlassenen Verordnung ermöglicht ist, ohne registriert zu sein – nach Ablauf der Übergangsfrist gemäß Art. 16 der Verordnung (EU) Nr. 98/2013 besitzt oder verwendet, begeht, wenn die Tat nicht mit gerichtlicher Strafe bedroht ist, eine Verwaltungs- übertretung und ist mit Geldstrafe von mindestens 500 € bis zu 20 180€, im Wiederholungsfall bis zu 40 375 € zubestrafen. Der Versuch ist strafbar.

Additionally if you use the chemicals for explosives (even black powder) you can get up to 1 year in jail....and the judge is forced to inflict custodial sentence and not a financial penalty....which makes a huge difference.

Here the §:
§ 71a. Wer einen Stoff nach den Anhängen I oder II der Verordnung
(EU) Nr. 98/2013 oder Gemische oder Stoffe, die diese Stoffe enthalten, mit dem
Vorsatz erwirbt, besitzt oder einem anderen überlässt, dass dieser bei der vorschriftswidrigen
Erzeugung von Schieß- oder Sprengmitteln verwendet werde, ist,
wenn die Tat nicht nach einer anderen Bestimmung mit strengerer Strafe bedroht
ist, mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu einem Jahr zu bestrafen. § 175 Abs. 2 des Strafgesetzbuches,
BGBl. Nr. 60/1974, gilt sinngemäß.

Bj68

[Edited on 11-12-2014 by BJ68]

[Edited on 11-12-2014 by BJ68]

kecskesajt - 10-12-2014 at 23:35

Hi neighbour!I cant read it but will this law get here?(Hungary) ):

BJ68 - 10-12-2014 at 23:40

Quote: Originally posted by kecskesajt

Hi neighbour!I cant read it but will this law get here?(Hungary) ):

Yes....is EU regulation what every member state of the EU must implement in local law.

Here the 98/2013 in English:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2...

Check the law making process at your local government, because since 2. September 2014 is regulation is in force...

Bj68

[Edited on 11-12-2014 by BJ68]

Here in Hungarian:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2...

[Edited on 11-12-2014 by BJ68]

kecskesajt - 10-12-2014 at 23:52

Omfg,the churces must be ban.On the walls there is saltpeter/saltpetre.And here,when I brought 35% H2O2, they said nothing.

kecskesajt - 11-12-2014 at 00:00

If you need KNO3,you can borrow my boots wich has got a pretty decoration(chicken sh*t).

Jylliana - 11-12-2014 at 00:58

Both annexes from the PDF file.

woelen - 11-12-2014 at 01:54

Explained in English: Possession and use of any of the compounds, mentioned in Annex I, above the mentioned concentration will lead to a fine of at least EUR 500, with a maximum of EUR 20180. Repeated offences will lead to a fine of at most EUR 40375.
Use of any of the Annex I or Annex II compounds for making explosive mixtures or compounds will be punished with imprisonment for a period of at most 1 year.

It does not say when the minimum fine is given and when higher fines will be given.
Probably, the minimum of EUR 500 will be applied when it is found in small quantities and when there are no expected adverse activities and I expect there will be higher fines when people want to use the chemicals for illegal activities.

I interpret this as a total prohibition of making energetic compounds or mixes from basic chemicals like nitrates, or acids and so on. Even doing experiments, just for the fun of it, or for scientific interest, without any intents on terrorism, can bring you in great trouble.

And indeed, this is not just for Austria, regulation 98/2013 is for every EU country.

[Edited on 11-12-14 by woelen]

BJ68 - 11-12-2014 at 22:09

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

Even doing experiments, just for the fun of it, or for scientific interest, without any intents on terrorism, can bring you in great trouble.
And indeed, this is not just for Austria, regulation 98/2013 is for every EU country.
[Edited on 11-12-14 by woelen]

That´s the problem...even LEGAL experiments are forbidden....

There is another crunchpoint in the regulation....there are no minimum amounts mentioned this means that e.g. the test for potassium with perchloric acid is a offense against this regulation, because the potassium perchlorate which precipitated out, will be purer then 40%.

Additionally in Austria and Germany no permit for private citizens will be granted to obtain and use this chemicals in higher concentrations as in annex I or the exemptions in Art. 4 Number 3. Letter a) to c).
That´s a kind of total prohibition for private users.

Bj68

chemrox - 11-12-2014 at 22:29

Quote: Originally posted by kecskesajt

Omfg,the churces must be ban.

Now there's an idea!

deltaH - 11-12-2014 at 22:57

So one has the freedom to practice religion, but not freedom to practice science... science IS my religion.

My heart goes out to my fellow European SM members

kecskesajt - 12-12-2014 at 03:40

Why they dont ban bleach?Everybody can make dangerous chlorine.I'll leave the EU when I have enough money.Also,I really don't know why they ban the chemicals,OTC chemicals will aviable everywhere(Hexamine:Fuel tablets,H2O2:dissefectant,Acetone:nail polish remover).Or the terrorists just rob a chemical supplier.To clean AN just dissolve the AN water,filter and crystalise.

kecskesajt - 12-12-2014 at 12:43

But we have better luck that we didn't live in Australia...Poor guys

The Volatile Chemist - 12-12-2014 at 13:08

Worse than Texas, ouch. Sorry guys. How's Africa's chemistry laws?

aga - 12-12-2014 at 13:53

Sadly the 'terrorists' win again.

Here in the EU the young chemist can polish rocks with no problem.

Any enthusiast in Afghanistan has free access to all of the most advanced chemicals known to man (unexploded/captured Russian and American ordnance mostly) and Encouragement from his elders to make new stuff.

Tell me, where is the Long Term thinking in these EU laws ?

deltaH - 12-12-2014 at 14:16

Pffft, please do come to South Africa when you get fed up with all this BS.

Argentum - 27-12-2014 at 15:13

Argentina has banned some reagents like HCl, H2SO4, ketones, hydroxides, carbonates, sulphates, and solvents you could easily find in an American hardware store. Having one gram of these things is a reason for jail or some high fine if you're lucky. I don´t know about explosives and precursors.

Ethanol appears as a higly controlled substance. Do I have a reason to be arrested in my bathroom?

Little_Ghost_again - 28-12-2014 at 07:03

Nail polish is being phased out with acetone in it, they are changing nail polish itself so you dont have to use acetone. Most aquarium test kits are being phased out as well because of the chemical reagents.
Chemistry as a hobby is pretty much dead after 2016 in the UK. You cant stock up with drain cleaner because buy a couple of bottles and they are obliged to report it as suspicious transaction.
Read the thread about my friend from school, the laws are not even fully in force yet and already he has been arrested and held without charge or representation just because he was trying to make a solid rocket motor for a toy car!
So what the fuck we going to do when in 10 years time we dont have rocket scientists coming through the universities? What happens to the fireworks industry when there is no one left to go work there as no one has experience even at school of energetic reactions?
But best of all lets look at the truth, this is meant to stop a certain religion and its beliefs from committing atrocities, how do they think these rules will deter them? Time in prison?? Do the rule makers even understand the nature of the problem, these are people who happily don a vest full of explosives and blow themselves up when they set the bombs off, how the fuck can you think a few rules will make any difference to anybody with the mindset that drives them to commit suicide with there bombs?
IED's are from the battle field, the people they are trying to stop wont pay any attention to the law or rules, many will actually make sure they get arrested first simply because they will have more freedom in prison and can learn much more far quicker about explosives in a prison than they can in a school these days.
But none of this is about the terror threat, this is purely about europe becoming one last super state under central control. And what about the cost? They cant afford to even watch 2000 people on a secret list that are considered high threat to UK safety, how many more high risk people will no longer be monitored because the money has been spent on locking up a 14 year old kid for making a solid rocket 100mm long for a toy car.
They cant pay the debt now so they cant tax people more because there isnt the money there to take.
All this will do is kill off interest in chemistry and science amongst young people, sooner or later there will be no more scientists. NASA dosnt make space ships anymore they want private companies to do it, but how they going to do that in say 30 years time? Science at school is really boring these days, my dad gave me a lesson in the kind of stuff they were allowed to do at school when he was my age.
I can see why he got interested in science, compared to what is allowed in a science lesson these days I can see a shortage of smart people coming through at some point.

Or maybe this is just a very very clever tax, after al l my mum actually registered a LTD company so I could keep making and selling soap, so yes I can have chemicals (or rather the company can) but the difference is now my meager earnings will be taxed and officially I cant work for the company.
I am lucky as I have great parents, but most people dont have the kind of parents I do.

In the end it might not matter anyway.............................. world war 3 could well be started very soon over a fucking film! The irony of it...Obama bitching about hacking after all the hacking the states did to other world leaders!! And yet he is willing to start a war over sony getting a film hacked LMFAO, so its ok for the states to hack other governments but NK must not hack a film company and must be dealt with!!!
Isnt it about time yu got rid of this idiot for the sake of the rest of the world? Sorry to all my american friends,I know it will upset many of you but lets face it America dosnt have a leg to stand on when it comes to hacking or withholding peoples human rights. The more I see that guy on TV the more I am convinced he is mentally ill

Amos - 28-12-2014 at 08:10

Little ghost, as far as the whole cybersecurity thing goes, I'm pretty much sure that Barack Obama really has nothing to do with all the shit our CIA and NSA pull; I think those agencies have simply gotten bored with peace in their home country and decided to play cool little spy games just because they can. They've been there long before our president has. Another thing: Our president doesn't rule the country; all of these people in other countries seem to think he can do whatever he wants, when he's relatively powerless before our congress, which is both immensely out of touch with reality and corrupt as all hell, too.

Finally, how can you be mad that a psychotic autocratic regime that threatens worldwide nuclear war on a daily basis has had their internets taken away? Are you mad that the head of the Secret Police can't watch porn anymore? There's not really any WAR that can happen; There is compelling evidence that NK has nothing to threaten anyone with.

Little_Ghost_again - 29-12-2014 at 05:10

Quote: Originally posted by No Tears Only Dreams Now

Little ghost, as far as the whole cybersecurity thing goes, I'm pretty much sure that Barack Obama really has nothing to do with all the shit our CIA and NSA pull; I think those agencies have simply gotten bored with peace in their home country and decided to play cool little spy games just because they can. They've been there long before our president has. Another thing: Our president doesn't rule the country; all of these people in other countries seem to think he can do whatever he wants, when he's relatively powerless before our congress, which is both immensely out of touch with reality and corrupt as all hell, too.

Finally, how can you be mad that a psychotic autocratic regime that threatens worldwide nuclear war on a daily basis has had their internets taken away? Are you mad that the head of the Secret Police can't watch porn anymore? There's not really any WAR that can happen; There is compelling evidence that NK has nothing to threaten anyone with.

No my point was that the states is every bit as guilty as any of the countries it says do bad things.
I find it stupid in the least to make a film about a current head of state, you are all assuming that he dosnt have nuclear war heads, and yet the west continue to piss of Russia etc etc. It dosnt matter if he has the war heads or not, it should never of gone this far. As for BO saying that sony should of spoke to him first makes me think this guy is on one massive ego trip.
I like America alot and in the past have had some excellent presidents (Regan ending the cold war), but this guy you have now is a very dangerous idiot with a point to prove.
Anyway I dont have anything more useful to add to this so no point saying anything else, I like Americans but dislike the current guy in charge.

Amos - 29-12-2014 at 08:00

If you think Reagan of all people was a good guy then I don't think the argument would get anywhere, anyway.

Bert - 29-12-2014 at 08:10

Gentlemen, let us return to discussing the OP- Outside of where it directly intersects science, politics belongs in "Whimsy"

Politics in *Whimsy*... Yeah. Even the name seems so appropriate, some days.

Little_Ghost_again - 29-12-2014 at 09:27

Yeah sorry politics is a road to no where sorry for my part in it! as for good guys in politics I dont actually think there is any is there?

The Volatile Chemist - 31-12-2014 at 11:47

All I can say is, if that really is what will happen, little-ghost, then Europe will fall to communism, and the US will rise as the capitalist center of the world again, hurrah!
Actually, it'd probably be china :/

Texium - 31-12-2014 at 15:31

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist

All I can say is, if that really is what will happen, little-ghost, then Europe will fall to communism, and the US will rise as the capitalist center of the world again, hurrah!
Actually, it'd probably be china :/

Don't even go there TVC.

On topic though, yeah, it's really disappointing that the EU would make these awful regulations. I mean, I'm in Texas and it's even looking pretty good now in comparison.

gardul - 31-12-2014 at 19:37

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist

I would highly recommand you guys that are in parts of the world that have to deal with the EU to perhaps start thinking about. Rebeling. Peacfully first. least make your voice heard. I have many friends from Germent and England and it is insane. Some of the stuff that is sent to me honestly frieghtens me.

America has it's issues, but no where near what is portrayed in the media. A lot of it is fuax. What I see the UN and EU demanding of it's people is a little unseltting. the UN being nothing but a countryless group of thugs to begin with.

Perhaps it is time to reconcider some things?

[Edited on 1-1-2015 by gardul]

The Volatile Chemist - 1-1-2015 at 11:18

Quote: Originally posted by zts16

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist

Don't even go there TVC.

On topic though, yeah, it's really disappointing that the EU would make these awful regulations. I mean, I'm in Texas and it's even looking pretty good now in comparison.

I was joking :/
Besides, I'm from the US, I don't really have any ties to europe directly. Now, mind you, I really want to start a chemical Lab in germany....
They all don't need 'civil disobedience or rebellion, gardul, they just need to personally need to not listen to the rather rediculus rules. At worst, we just sell those in the EU the chemicals ourselves. They don't need to 'rebel'.

gardul - 1-1-2015 at 15:33

If chemists don't follow their laws, to me that is civil disobedience. Which can be a form of rebellion. Passive aggressive but still.

Texium - 1-1-2015 at 17:03

True, not following rules, no matter how silly they are, is pretty much the very definition of civil disobedience. Most likely though, it probably won't even cause a stir, since as long as you don't draw any attention to yourself, and aren't actually doing anything really wrong, they probably won't waste any time and money going through the legal process on you, and they'll let it slide. That's currently the situation in Texas, it seems.

Brain&Force - 1-1-2015 at 21:31

Well, note that it's CIVIL disobedience – not criminal disobedience. We ain't killing people.

Happy 1000 posts zts16!

gardul - 2-1-2015 at 02:05

I just want to make it clear, I never stated or thought people of the EU should start killing people. If I came off like that's what I meant I'm sorry.

Brain&Force - 2-1-2015 at 17:49

Quote: Originally posted by gardul

I just want to make it clear, I never stated or thought people of the EU should start killing people. If I came off like that's what I meant I'm sorry.

Oh, no, I'm just saying that we're not threatening anyone, it's just that everyone is paranoid!

turd - 4-1-2015 at 03:51

Quote: Originally posted by gardul

I would highly recommand you guys that are in parts of the world that have to deal with the EU to perhaps start thinking about. Rebeling.

You're delusional. How about you try to start a rebellion in your country about not being able to buy trivial reagents like phosphorous or iodine? You will have a hard time convincing your countrymen that a few pimple-faces cooking up a batch of methamphetamine is no problem (ironically the same countrymen that will readily feed amphetamines to their kids to shut them up). The same is true in Europe: a very vast part of the population will support restricted access to bomb-making chemicals.

Quote:

If chemists don't follow their laws, to me that is civil disobedience. Which can be a form of rebellion. Passive aggressive but still.

According to this definition countries like France, Italy or Greece are in a constant state of rebellion.

Seriously people, let's put all this into perspective:

HNO3 was sadly all but banned - but conc. H2SO4 and nitrates are still available OTC (i.e. no id required). Just make it - that's what I chose to do because I didn't want my local chemist's to get the wrong ideas about by endeavors.

H2O2, nitromethane and perchlorates are still available in useful concentrations and easily concentrated.

Production / possession of above chemicals at too high concetrations are a minor infraction, comparable to a parking violation. A very different situation from possessing P_red or I₂ in the land of the free.

A few chemicals were added to a kind of official watch-list. You must be quite naive to believe that "suspicious transactions" of these chemicals were not already monitored. After all Europe has a long and illustrious history of domestic terrorism. Nitroglycerine and perchlorates/sugar are a long time favorite of wanna-be terrorists.

All in all this is not the serious blow to hobby-chemistry you are all insinuating. Actually it doesn't change a lot - this seems more like toothless "look we're doing something against terrorism" legislation. You can expect significantly more serious restrictions to come and nobody will "rebel". They are smart enough not to restrict access to the drugs of the masses (alcohol and TV).

[Edited on 4-1-2015 by turd]

jock88 - 4-1-2015 at 14:08

Yes, there's nothing like a good night in. Stoned out of your mind on whiskey and having a good session at the front of your transvestite.

:

Nitric acid is still available for washing milking machines. I wouldn't mind getting my hands on a few gallons and washing the local tax official.

gardul - 5-1-2015 at 01:24

I made that comment with more then just chemistry in mind.

You may think I am delusional, but people are more easily influenced then you think. Hope is every powerful.

a blanket Ideal that covers the true motives happens every day. people gobble it up like candy. Every time we watch politicians, watch the media, read, listen to music.

BJ68 - 6-1-2015 at 20:37

Quote: Originally posted by turd

Production / possession of above chemicals at too high concetrations are a minor infraction, comparable to a parking violation. A very different situation from possessing P_red or I₂ in the land of the free.

Humph.... 500 Euros fine for the first time if you get caught? Your equipment will be sized and destroyed and you can be sure, that you will have a nice file in some databases....

Further every piece of product (e.g. home made copper(II)nitrate) or laboratory book, where you have documented your syntheses can be used against you....

And even parking violations can be troublesome, if you do it regularly...

Bj68

turd - 7-1-2015 at 02:45

Quote: Originally posted by BJ68

Humph.... 500 Euros fine for the first time if you get caught?

So what?
Look what I found with some googling:
https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/Dokumente/BgblPdf/1997_53_1/1997_5...
Note the date: 1997. And look what it says:

Quote:

wenn die Tat nicht mit gerichtlicher Strafe bedroht ist, eine Verwaltungsübertretung und ist mit Geldstrafe von mindestens 5 000 S bis zu 200 000 S, im Wiederholungsfall bis zu 400 000 S zu bestrafen. Der Versuch ist strafbar

Now my German is not perfect, but this looks pretty similar to what you posted in your original post:

Quote:

wenn die Tat nicht mit gerichtlicher Strafe bedroht ist, eine Verwaltungsübertretung und ist mit Geldstrafe von mindestens 500 € bis zu 20 180€, im Wiederholungsfall bis zu 40 375 € zubestrafen. Der Versuch ist strafbar.

Translation: Lazy politicians had to comply with a random EU rule, found that they already had corresponding legislation, added a few chemicals to the already existing huge list and went on with more important stuff.

You never had free access to chemicals. What you were doing was (borderline) illegal all the time. So what's up with the hysteria?

Quote:

Your equipment will be sized and destroyed and you can be sure, that you will have a nice file in some databases....

Even in the unlikely case of getting aught, you will have a clean criminal record. That's all that counts.

gardul - 7-1-2015 at 19:16

I think the hysteria comes from doing nothing "wrong" but can still wind up in prision. I always have had the feeling it isn't always about public safty. In some cases it is about money, and in some cases it is about supressing education.

The Volatile Chemist - 8-1-2015 at 08:26

So wait... what's the fine for "A very different situation from possessing P_red or I₂ in the land of the free."? I didn't know that was illegal...? I don't have any of either, but still...

turd - 8-1-2015 at 09:42

I guess it varies from state to state, but for example (30 s of Google) http://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/45/9/45-9-107.htm :

Quote:

A person convicted of criminal possession of precursors to dangerous drugs shall be imprisoned in the state prison for a term not less than 2 years or more than 20 years or be fined an amount not to exceed $50,000, or both.

Edit: Also let's not forget this crazy story: http://www.examiner.com/article/uk-couple-face-extradition-w...

[Edited on 8-1-2015 by turd]

State ' 0 ', the people ' 1 '

franklyn - 9-1-2015 at 09:01

It's not just about guns or chemicals or any and all things that the self righteous believe they are empowered to control.
www.huffingtonpost.com/evan-bernick/federal-judge-to-texas-n...

Government will expand to fill the known universe. Examples of this trend are prominent in European countries where the only ' growth ' is that of government , which assimilates all productive means to support itself with ever more regulatory expansion. In order to ' make the world better ' control freaks are turning it into shit. Have no misunderstanding about it , this is a liberal disease and it's spread by liberalism.

.

Metacelsus - 9-1-2015 at 10:26

If the judge had told Texas to lift its ban on glassware, I'd be more happy.

gardul - 10-1-2015 at 14:01

Quote: Originally posted by franklyn

It's not just about guns or chemicals or any and all things that the self righteous believe they are empowered to control.
www.huffingtonpost.com/evan-bernick/federal-judge-to-texas-n...

Government will expand to fill the known universe. Examples of this trend are prominent in European countries where the only ' growth ' is that of government , which assimilates all productive means to support itself with ever more regulatory expansion. In order to ' make the world better ' control freaks are turning it into shit. Have no misunderstanding about it , this is a liberal disease and it's spread by liberalism.

.

franklyn, do not be so quick in blaming just liberals; The right said does it just as much. Every year I sit down and look at what has been passed. On a spread sheet I mark whom voted in what. In reality it does not matter. politicians are the same. they speak on thing and turn a blind eye in hopes the public forgets. It's the game of politics. Trust me they are, for the most part all the same.

ahill - 29-1-2015 at 15:07

I had a visit from some police yesterday afternoon. (Melbourne, Australia)

I wasn't actually home - I was at work - my partner let them in, and they had a poke around my home.

They said, (and this is second-hand via my partner), customs had notified them I had bought a flask. Apparently they were polite enough - not especially forthcoming - and pretty quick - in and out in a few minutes. They did look thru most rooms - upstairs and down. Slightly weirdly, they didn't check out the lab (in the garage) - or even ask if there was one or where the 'flask' was, or what I might be doing with it.

Didnt leave a card or say where they were from, or call me.

Its true - I have ordered lots of chemistry (and electronics) related odds and end off the internets over the last 6 odd months - the meat of it tho - would be a rocking organic distillation kit, a 1litre buchner filter/flask/hand pump combo, and some crappy gas washing bottles. (btw - despite the rockingness of the above kit, I _would not_ especially recommend the linked vendor)

I should prolly point out I'm an adult, am not making meth or jihad - don't hang around with bikers, and live in a fairly nice house in a kind of mixed neighborhood.

Went to bed half expecting to be woken up by the door exploding in and getting dragged out of bed by masked armed men - but forgot to stay awake.

Maybe tomorrow night.

..so kind of unsettling and a bit weird - not totally unexpected tho.