Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Interesting source of tin

AvBaeyer - 5-12-2014 at 20:08

It turns out that real tin foil is used for the capsule on wine bottles for some of the higher priced wines. Cheap wines (bottom shelf at Safeway) use a plastic capsule. Aluminum foil or aluminum/plastic composites are also found on various wine bottles. I happen to like Italian wines and the tin capsule is pretty common on some of the better Chiantis and related wines. I also recently found a tin capsule on one American wine from Oregon (King Estates).

The insides of the aluminum capsules are shiny like you might expect while the insides of the tin capsules have a light yellowish-golden sheen. The outsides of the tin capsules are generally covered with a thin coat of paint which is easily removed with acetone. Once the paint is gone, you are left with a nice size piece of tin foil.

For those who like a good bottle of wine, there is also a hidden bonus for the lab.

AvB

blogfast25 - 6-12-2014 at 06:30

And you have proof of this? If so, obtained how?

Bert - 6-12-2014 at 11:45

He is correct, bullet casters also seek to scavenge these Tin foil covers.

Tin has a distinct yellow/gold tint, if you've encountered it in pure form you'll recognize it.

Chemosynthesis - 6-12-2014 at 12:24

That is a fascinating source.
I know lead/tin automotive wheel weights used to be used for bullet casting, but they are largely zinc alloys now, which may be useful to some. This is detrimental to cast bullets, and so they are discarded. Linotype was reported as a good source for lead/tin, but they aren't all that common from what I understand.

careysub - 6-12-2014 at 12:41

How much does a tin foil* capsule weigh?

Tin (99.9%) is $20/lb from Rotometals (a great company to do business with).

How many capsules does it take to make a pound? How much wine must you consume - inquiring minds want to know.

*One of the few occasions in my life where I have had cause to use this common expression accurately.

Bert - 6-12-2014 at 12:41

One of my hobbies...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com

The clip on type weights were mostly Lead, a few % Antimony and a small amount of Tin, .5-1.5% (just enough Tin to lower the alloy's surface tension for good mould fill out). Usually also a VERY small amount of Arsenic to speed up hardening after they were cast. These alloys are quite different than many other metals- They work SOFTEN rather than work hardening, they do quench harden and grow in hardness (as well as slightly in size) due to changes in the metal as it ages.

The self stick weights are very nearly pure Lead, usually a tiny amount of Antimony only in these.

The new Zinc weights will ruin bullet metal by INCREASEING surface tension and preventing details filling out properly in a mould. Large fishing weights are a good use for these- Also people who shoot muzzle loading cannons may cast balls from these as they are substantially cheaper as scrap metal than Lead/alloys.

[Edited on 6-12-2014 by Bert]

Chemosynthesis - 6-12-2014 at 12:46

Quote: Originally posted by careysub  
Tin (99.9%) is $20/lb from Rotometals (a great company to do business with).

Good recommendation. I was interested in ordering some lead for casting at some point and had only figured out kitco for spot pricing.
Quote: Originally posted by Bert  
One of my hobbies...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com

The clip on type weights were mostly Lead, a few % Antimony and a VERY small amount of Tin, .5-1.5% and a VERY small amount of Arsenic to speed up hardening after they were cast. Just enough Tin to lower the alloy's surface tension.

The self stick weights are very nearly pure Lead, usually a tiny amount of Antimony only in these.

The new Zinc weights will ruin bullet metal by INCREASEING surface tension and preventing details filling out properly in a mould. Large fishing weights are a good use for these- Also people who shoot muzzle loading cannons may cast balls from these as they are substantially cheaper as scrap metal than Lead/alloys.
Fascinating and very useful. As I am prone to do, I ordered some bullet molds years ago, stuck them in a drawer, and never bothered casting anything with them. Now I have two very useful sources of information and inspiration to get on that.

Bert - 6-12-2014 at 12:52

Shoot me a PM with the mould #'s and intended use- Then go pour yourself a HOT one!

There is Lead free plumbing solder available that's 95% Tin. If you find a building with old "double hung" windows being replaced - It was common for the draft stops the windows had let into their sides to be made from pure Tin at some time around WWI in the Midwestern USA at least-

[Edited on 6-12-2014 by Bert]

Metacelsus - 6-12-2014 at 13:04

I recently bought an 8 oz. tin ingot off Ebay for use in a reduction (after melting down and granulating). As metals go, it's pretty easy to come by.

jock88 - 6-12-2014 at 13:46


I have seen the shield (if the wire has a shield which is not too often) in heavy duty electric wire made of tin.

AvBaeyer - 6-12-2014 at 19:36

Careysub:

The tin capsules I have accumulated weight between 4 - 5 grams each. You'll have to drink a lot of expensive wine (ca. 100 bottles or 75L) to get a pound of tin.

By the way, tin is used (as a replacement for lead once used in years gone by) because it is nonreactive toward the chemicals normally found in wine and so is suitable for wines with a long aging time. An aluminum capsule might corrode over time due to leakage around the cork and have adverse effects on the wine. I was told this by a winemaker who is also a highly regarded chemist.

Pour yourself a nice, well aged Brunello, and save the capsule for further research.

AvB

CuReUS - 7-12-2014 at 08:57

"tin" cans are actually aluminum cans with a thin layer of tin coating inside

so why can't the capsules just have a thin coating of tin on the inside ,rather than making the whole capsule out of tin ? :o

Chemosynthesis - 7-12-2014 at 09:09

I'm guessing the thinness and malleability make that very unlikely.

CuReUS - 7-12-2014 at 09:23

can't they just dip an aluminum piece in molten tin(like galvanizing) ,and then cut and beat it into the required size and shape ?

Chemosynthesis - 7-12-2014 at 09:38

They would probably get the shape first, but I suppose they could if they thought the logistical expense of adding tin rather than using a thin piece were enough of a saving to mechanize while still giving them desired tolerances. They are extremely thin, though. I see some where the body and the face are different materials, but no mention of cladding an aluminum capsule.

[Edited on 7-12-2014 by Chemosynthesis]

careysub - 7-12-2014 at 10:26

Quote: Originally posted by CuReUS  
"tin" cans are actually aluminum cans with a thin layer of tin coating inside


Steel cans coated with tin. All aluminum cans served as replacements for this type of can.

I don't think anyone ever made tin coated aluminum cans. A major part of the attraction of aluminum was the one-step extrusion to make a finished can body (that, and the smooth polished surface took paint really well, with shiny highlights where desired).

AvBaeyer - 7-12-2014 at 18:15

From the website of http://www.corksupply.com/products

"Rivercap™ tin capsules from Cork Supply are crafted as a nine-stage deep drawn shell from a single-piece of pure high-grade tin to ensure an elegant, flawless finish."

The tin capsules are not platings or laminates.

AvB

cyanureeves - 7-12-2014 at 18:46

i came across an ornamental flower in a pot made in malaysia and it was all tin,about 1.5 lbs.

unionised - 8-12-2014 at 11:33

How cold should a wine cellar be?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_pest

DraconicAcid - 8-12-2014 at 11:38

I thought tin pest only happened well below zero, and if you freeze your wine, you've wasted it.

unionised - 8-12-2014 at 13:29

Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid  
I thought tin pest only happened well below zero, and if you freeze your wine, you've wasted it.

Why did you think that?
"At 13.2 degrees Celsius (about 56 degrees Fahrenheit) and below, pure tin transforms from the silvery, ductile metallic allotrope of β-form white tin to brittle, nonmetallic, α-form grey tin with a diamond structure. "
So, freezing isn't an issue. (and the wine probably won't freeze until it's about -5C anyway)

DraconicAcid - 8-12-2014 at 13:37

Yes, but it's very slow to initiate unless the temperatures are *very* cold (or it's contaminated by germanium). I used to live in Alberta, where temperatures regularly got below 13 oC, but people still use tin for roofing their barns (although it's probably well-alloyed to prevent the pest).

You know, I think I'm going to get a piece of tin wire, stick it in a vial, and put it in the freezer for a few weeks.....

[Edited on 8-12-2014 by DraconicAcid]

jock88 - 8-12-2014 at 15:26


I stuck some pieces of tin in the freezer for some months and they were still OK when them came out. No sign of the tin pest.

According to some historians one of the major reasons for the defeat of Napoleon in Russia was tin pest. The freezing temperatures caused all the button to disintegrate off the soldiers clothes and they became useless against the cold.

DraconicAcid - 8-12-2014 at 15:49

Quote: Originally posted by jock88  
According to some historians one of the major reasons for the defeat of Napoleon in Russia was tin pest. The freezing temperatures caused all the button to disintegrate off the soldiers clothes and they became useless against the cold.

And according to others, it's more of an urban legend. But "Napoleon's Buttons" is still a damned good read.

jock88 - 8-12-2014 at 18:57


One should never let facts get in the way of a good story!!!

careysub - 8-12-2014 at 19:30

Tin pest is a fascinating phenomenon because it is an autocatalytic allotropic transformation, and in a pure element too! Anything that starts the conversion to alpha-tin will trigger a transformation all the way through the material.

Apparently germanium (in the metallic beta form) can can trigger it, also "pink salt" solution - (NH4)2[SnCl6].

The transformation occurs fastest at -45C (I don't know if colder than this helps or hurts or stays the same).

Some time I want to get a bar of pure tin, and a bit of germanium, and put them in contact with a block of dry ice (-74.6 C) and see what happens.

I would really like to recreate this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUoVEmHuykM

I actually plan on doing this is the not too distant future.

[Edited on 9-12-2014 by careysub]

careysub - 8-12-2014 at 19:34

Quote: Originally posted by jock88  

According to some historians one of the major reasons for the defeat of Napoleon in Russia was tin pest. The freezing temperatures caused all the button to disintegrate off the soldiers clothes and they became useless against the cold.



I don't think anyone claims this to be a major reason for the Russian Campaign going horribly, horribly wrong.

Besides, all those soldiers were conscripted farmers. I bet they had the skills to make serviceable button out of wood or bones.


[Edited on 9-12-2014 by careysub]