Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Aconitine, Deadly?

goldenoranges - 26-11-2014 at 11:27

So I was researching this plant when I came across a homeopathic website. I thought Aconitum was deadly when taken in large doses, yet right under the product in the description they claim "You cannot overdose on homeopathic medicines. If you take fifteen tablets or five tablets (or 100 tablets for that matter) AT ONE TIME it is one dose. You will stimulate your curative response one time. So, it is not a tragedy if more than six tablets fall into the cap, just take them rather than risk putting a contaminated pill back into the bottle to contaminate the others in the bottle."

Is it just me or this saying this on a website where people buy aconitum for medicine a good way to get somebody killed?

http://www.absolutelythepurest.com/shop/product_view.asp?id=...


On another note, what I actually came here to ask, can anybody provide links to a journal or studies done on aconitine? I am looking, but I can't find an answer to the question I am looking for. Would the aconitine alkaloid be more soluble in water or alcohol?

careysub - 26-11-2014 at 11:36

Ah, you know not of the ways of homeopathy!

It is a peculiar non-scientific belief system (though derived from science) that holds that the effectiveness of a medication increases as the medicine is diluted. Potency is measured by the degree of dilution! Dilutions of one-to-one-million are common.

The most favorable term to use for homeopathic medicine is "placebo".

So a homeopathic aconitine dose at 100 times the "recommended" amount will still be harmless. It is probably not possible to ingest a harmful dose.

A quack medicine that I see pushed on TV called "Airborne" originally was homeopathic junk, but I now see it is instead a run-of-mile collection of worthless vitamin supplements.

Chemosynthesis - 26-11-2014 at 11:59

Homeopathic remedies may not even contain any active ingredient at their dilutions.

Aconitine is almost insoluble in water, soluble in ethanol, and (according to Sigma) 500mg/mL soluble in chloroform.

What kind of journal studies do you want? Aconitine has been used in rats to induce ventricular cardiac arrhythmias.

PMID:19514874 is a meta analysis of literature published on human toxicity.
PMID:25095352 is a pharmacokinetic study of alkaloids which includes aconitine, done in beagle dogs.

goldenoranges - 26-11-2014 at 12:21

Thanks! I didn't know that, I assumed they were just packaging raw plant material into the pills haha. Figures :P

And I was looking for studies done on rats with aconitine, but beagles work as well. Thank you very much for the information.

unionised - 26-11-2014 at 12:42

Traditional joke cited when people talk about homoeopathy.
http://xkcd.com/765/
Others include "real homoeopaths bang it on a lump of rubber" as a bumper sticker
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy#Preparation
and the one about the homoeopath who forgot to take his pills and died of an overdose.

Aconitine is pretty spectacularly poisonous. I really wouldn't play with it if I were you.
On the other hand, those pills won't actually contain any aconitine.

goldenoranges - 26-11-2014 at 13:06

Laughing hard over the wiki article!

I don't plan on handling it, I was just interested in it because I read somewhere that in medieval times they put balls of burning monkshood roots into catapults/trebeches and launched them into the castles. Sort of like the first ever chemical warfare haha! It does seem pretty toxic, I also read that even handling the leaves on the plant can cause poisoning, which is ironic since the flower is so pretty. But I guess the more colorful things are in nature the deadlier they are usually.

DraconicAcid - 26-11-2014 at 13:10

Quote: Originally posted by goldenoranges  

Is it just me or this saying this on a website where people buy aconitum for medicine a good way to get somebody killed?


The "strength" of this "remedy" is 30C, which means they've taken their original solution of aconitine (of whatever concentration it was, in alcohol or whatever) and diluted it by a factor of one hundred....thirty times. So if it started as 1 mol/L (which it almost assuredly didn't), its concentration would not be 10^-60 mol/L, which would mean they'd lost their last molecule of the active substance in the average litre of solution shortly after they were a third of the way done.

Bert - 2-12-2014 at 21:54

The ancient Greeks considered it a lovely arrow poison- Could be quite dangerous. If there were actualy any of it there...

(According to the infallible font of wisdom, AKA Wikipedia) Lethal oral dose: For humans the lowest published oral lethal dose of 28 μg/kg was reported in 1969.

careysub - 3-12-2014 at 11:02

Quote: Originally posted by Bert  
The ancient Greeks considered it a lovely arrow poison- Could be quite dangerous. If there were actualy any of it there...

(According to the infallible font of wisdom, AKA Wikipedia) Lethal oral dose: For humans the lowest published oral lethal dose of 28 μg/kg was reported in 1969.


It was investigated as a projectile poison in WWII as well.

A lethal dose of about 2 mg makes it ten times more toxic than hydrogen cyanide and roughly comparable to nerve gases (twice as toxic as tabun actually, but about 40% as toxic as Sarin).

Little_Ghost_again - 17-12-2014 at 05:45

I had hopes for this discipline right up to the point that memory water was published. Hard to see how your going to overdoes on talcum powder and binder.
Many alternative medicines work, I take an extract of stinging nettle and it helps with my digestion problems, but thats not homeopathic as the amount I take is around 3g a day taken over 8 lots.

goldenoranges - 17-12-2014 at 09:52

That's interesting. It would probably work with a blow gun as well. Does anybody know if the poison stays in the meat after the animal dies from aconitine poisoning? Or does it degrade after a period of time. I would say it sounds like a good poison for hunting, like south american's use of poison dart frog's poison on tapirs and other animals, but I would be scared to eat anything if I did do it.

I found some other useful links about it I thought I would share for future viewers of this thread.

http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/plant/aconitum.htm
http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Aconiti...

UnintentionalChaos - 17-12-2014 at 10:56

A valuable resource for those looking to learn about homeopathy! http://www.howdoeshomeopathywork.com/

Bert - 17-12-2014 at 11:54

Homeopathy? Placebo effect?

Probably won't work for me, neither I nor my culture have the expectation it would.

Little_Ghost_again - 17-12-2014 at 17:01

I have strong strong views on homeopathic stuff, but better I say nothing. Alternative medicine works and has a well grounded scientific base, many (most ) drugs were originally from plant extracts etc so I see no reason not to use a plant rather than a synthetic drug.
The whole water can remember etc etc etc is crap and proved to be crap.
The theory that a micro amount of something can stimulate the body to produce an effect I can also see a couple of times that may well work (protein binding etc).
But I wouldnt dismiss homeopathic medicine or try to disprove it, simply because for some it works. ok the reasons why it works are obvious, but for that very reason debunking it isnt doing anyone a favour ;)

Chemosynthesis - 17-12-2014 at 18:01

If you want to start a thread in Legal and Societal issues, I can post all kinds of failures, mostly from the NIH NCCAM.

The concepts behind homeopathy are different from naturopathy, which is also different from pharmacognosy. Alternative or complementary medicine is just a blanket term that is difficult to address due to vagueness. In order to demonstrate efficacy and substantiate a non-monotonic dose response such as hormesis, a level of quantification is necessary that is absent in any non-pharmacological/Western levels of quality control, regardless of any potential activity within a procedure. So you essentially lack both mechanistic etiology and methodological rigor with non-evidence based procedures.

Bert - 17-12-2014 at 19:28
Quote:

It was investigated as a projectile poison in WWII as well. A lethal dose of about 2 mg makes it ten times more toxic than hydrogen cyanide and roughly comparable to nerve gases (twice as toxic as tabun actually, but about 40% as toxic as Sarin).


The poison garden

More than a decade back, a gentleman who taught me certain traditional techniques pointed out some flowers growing next to the side door of his family home. "Monks hood" he called it. And added the proper Latin name, as an educated man of his generation would. Then he mentioned the Ancient Greek use in warfare, various cultures medicinal uses- and his sincere desire to make a salad with a few leaves of this herb to be served at the imminent convention of a political party he held in low esteem.

WMD are where you find them.

It's a very good thing that most sane people would rather die themselves than deliberately kill another human.

DraconicAcid - 17-12-2014 at 20:03

Quote: Originally posted by Little_Ghost_again  
I have strong strong views on homeopathic stuff, but better I say nothing. Alternative medicine works and has a well grounded scientific base, many (most ) drugs were originally from plant extracts etc so I see no reason not to use a plant rather than a synthetic drug.


I've got a couple of very good reasons. First, a plant may contain any quantity of the active ingredient. One section of willow bark may be very low in salicylates; another strip of bark from the same tree may be higher. It's very difficult to get the right dosage when you're relying on how happy that particular plant was when it's growing.

Secondly, if you're buying your pieces of plants as a supplement rather than growing your own, the pills that you take may contain any quantity of that particular plant, or none at all. "St. John's Wort" tablets have been tested to show, in some cases, not a trace of that particular plant.

Third, if you're buying plant pills or extract, you probably don't know where that plant was growing. A nice forest in northern Canada, or an ugly forest downwind of the nickel mines in Sudbury? Or some ditch in an industrial area of China? The FDA doesn't test herbal supplements because they're "natural" (not drugs) and "supplements" (not food).

If I want salicylates for my headache, I'll take a standard dose of aspirin, thanks.

Little_Ghost_again - 18-12-2014 at 06:07

Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid  
Quote: Originally posted by Little_Ghost_again  
I have strong strong views on homeopathic stuff, but better I say nothing. Alternative medicine works and has a well grounded scientific base, many (most ) drugs were originally from plant extracts etc so I see no reason not to use a plant rather than a synthetic drug.


I've got a couple of very good reasons. First, a plant may contain any quantity of the active ingredient. One section of willow bark may be very low in salicylates; another strip of bark from the same tree may be higher. It's very difficult to get the right dosage when you're relying on how happy that particular plant was when it's growing.

Secondly, if you're buying your pieces of plants as a supplement rather than growing your own, the pills that you take may contain any quantity of that particular plant, or none at all. "St. John's Wort" tablets have been tested to show, in some cases, not a trace of that particular plant.

Third, if you're buying plant pills or extract, you probably don't know where that plant was growing. A nice forest in northern Canada, or an ugly forest downwind of the nickel mines in Sudbury? Or some ditch in an industrial area of China? The FDA doesn't test herbal supplements because they're "natural" (not drugs) and "supplements" (not food).

If I want salicylates for my headache, I'll take a standard dose of aspirin, thanks.


Hi
I didnt explain my point at all well by the sounds of it.
I agree with what your saying 100%.
What I was trying to say was, there is a difference between homeopathic medicine and natural alternatives.
I take an extract of nettle prepared in a lab, there is no equivalent drug on the market, if there was then like you I would take it.
What I tried to point out was the theory that a almost and in some cases actually zero molecule of value in homeopathic medicines, that is not the same as some alternative therapies.
yes I take the point about willow etc and its why we have drugs so we dont have to guess how much bark to take. But the point I tried to make was unlike the theory of water with memory that is often held in homeopathy, alternative medicine is based upon a substance that does exist.
In my own case the extract I take is prepared in a lab by professionals. It dosnt actually work on many people but for me it does help.
I think I just dont put my point across correctly. Regarding things like taking willow bark instead of a pill I couldnt agree more, but some the things that have been tried on me are not in drug form at the moment, in my own case its a situation where there is zero lost by trying anything and everything that may help. I am also on a drug trial program, because of my situation I am at the point that conventional drugs have reached there limit.
But even nettle tea bags from the shops seem to help a little, but not anywhere near as much as the concentrate I take.

Bert - 18-12-2014 at 08:11

Little_Ghost_again, may I ask what medical issues you're dealing with?

Natural medicine users REALLY need to know what they are doing, plant derived extracts can be very complex mixtures- And some traditional plant uses are not found to be so beneficial when looked at scientifically... THIS article being a case in point:

Aristolochia clematitis

That's a whole lot of kidney disease and cancer death among both patients and herbalists from just one family of Chinese & western traditional medicinal plants, plus the Balkan cluster of death and disease from accidental inclusion of seeds in harvested wheat!

I'm enjoying digging through the site linked above, it's time to start thinking about the coming year's garden.

goldenoranges - 18-12-2014 at 10:06

Quote: Originally posted by Bert  

Quote:

It was investigated as a projectile poison in WWII as well. A lethal dose of about 2 mg makes it ten times more toxic than hydrogen cyanide and roughly comparable to nerve gases (twice as toxic as tabun actually, but about 40% as toxic as Sarin).


The poison garden

More than a decade back, a gentleman who taught me certain traditional techniques pointed out some flowers growing next to the side door of his family home. "Monks hood" he called it. And added the proper Latin name, as an educated man of his generation would. Then he mentioned the Ancient Greek use in warfare, various cultures medicinal uses- and his sincere desire to make a salad with a few leaves of this herb to be served at the imminent convention of a political party he held in low esteem.

WMD are where you find them.

It's a very good thing that most sane people would rather die themselves than deliberately kill another human.


Very true

Little_Ghost_again - 26-12-2014 at 06:30

Quote: Originally posted by Bert  
Little_Ghost_again, may I ask what medical issues you're dealing with?

Natural medicine users REALLY need to know what they are doing, plant derived extracts can be very complex mixtures- And some traditional plant uses are not found to be so beneficial when looked at scientifically... THIS article being a case in point:

Aristolochia clematitis

That's a whole lot of kidney disease and cancer death among both patients and herbalists from just one family of Chinese & western traditional medicinal plants, plus the Balkan cluster of death and disease from accidental inclusion of seeds in harvested wheat!

I'm enjoying digging through the site linked above, it's time to start thinking about the coming year's garden.


I like to grow as many ingredients as I can for my soap making, I found some great books on plants and there herbal value, it helps me avoid the ones that are a bit toxic, on the other hand I am collecting some alkaloid poisons etc to use as comparisons in TLC and GC etc

pneumatician - 17-1-2015 at 18:54

I read here a bit of mockery against homeopathy :D

and against water memory? a lot... :D

so if no molecules in homeopatic remedies of something to cure the reason of help/healing/improvement of human diseases is "placebo", ooo yeah!

naif quiz, what is placebo and how it works? how nothing can cure something?

from the aerospace institute of stuttgart
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILSyt_Hhbjg

not is homeopathy in the public sanitary system of germany?

“If you want to find the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration.” - Nikola Tesla

"...if an entity seeks to be popular, the entity must tell the populous that which they already believe."

DraconicAcid - 17-1-2015 at 19:17

Quote: Originally posted by pneumatician  
I read here a bit of mockery against homeopathy


Far less than it deserves.

Sniffity - 18-1-2015 at 21:13

Aconitine is pretty poisonous, yes.

The plant it comes from, Aconite AKA Monkshood AKA Wolfsbane, is often related to werewolves and lycanthropy in literature. Wouldn't surprise to find out that, possibly in the old times, more than a person died fron drinking a preparation of aconitine as a "wolfsbane" potion.

The Wolfman (2010) contains quite a quote:
"Even a man who is pure in heart,
and says his prayers late by night,
may become a wolf when the Wolfsbane blooms,
and the autumn moon is bright..."

So yeah: Poisonous. And on a totally unrelated note, historically related to werewolves.

But hey, the belief in werewolves is kind of comparable to the belif in homeopathy. Personally, I'd be more inclined to believe in werewolves than in homeopathy, y'know, with my name being Sniffity? :P

Chemosynthesis - 19-1-2015 at 10:50

Quote: Originally posted by pneumatician  
naif quiz, what is placebo and how it works? how nothing can cure something?
Feel free to look up psychosomatic illnesses, nocebo, etc.

pneumatician - 21-2-2015 at 11:54

the problem here is when animals and cel cultives , o surprise, receive the "placebo effect"

unionised - 21-2-2015 at 12:43

That problem is called publication bias

Chemosynthesis - 21-2-2015 at 15:53

Unionized is right. I know this guy is a troll, but I guess other people might read this anyway. First, methodologies are very important. I can stimulate phosphoERK in a cell line by banging on my table before taking a measurement.... Cell lines are not whole organisms, and have many potential problems.

And animal models are not humans. The diseases we model in them are rough approximations of those in people, and choosing them is very complicated. I've talked a little on it elsewhere, but I am not an animal model specialist. I just know enough problems with them to leave any of that kind of thing to someone else.

This is why most drugs fail in clinical trials, often late, in humans after very promising results in other stages. There is a joke in biomedical disciplines that "every disease has been cured... in mice" for a reason.