Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Mr. Anonymous: azo-clathrate primaries

Polverone - 7-3-2003 at 13:37

Quote:
From: Anonymous
To: (my e-mail address)
Subject: azo-clathrate synthesis

Please allow me to share a good link for some printable basic tables and charts which are useful. http://chemdat.merck.de/cdrl/services/labtools/en/tools_body...

The tables for aqueous solutions of common acids and bases are very good for handy reference.

Near the end of my third message posted here, I made brief mention regarding a patent about a class of energetic materials, which are complexes called clathrates. Experiments with that class of compounds have produced very positive results. I wish to share the results of my experiments and other information to emphasize and explain the importance and usefulness of the outstanding basic lead picrate complexes of US3431156. The compounds described by the patent are truly exceptional energetic materials, quite unlike the ordinary picrate salts which are poor initiators by comparison. The azo-clathrates are small critical mass unequivocal primaries which demonstrate very high brisance. For example, a small test pellet of the material (formed by making a stiff putty of a small amount of the dry material wet with a minimum amount of saturated aqueous dextrine solution and allowing small droplets of the paste to dry upon a plastic film) shows the power of the composition. A small droplet of the dried, dextrine bindered material weighing 35 milligrams, will produce a clear aperture, clean edged hole when placed upon a thin aluminum witness plate and detonated by touching with a glowing splint. The metal is not merely punctured nor is there any deep dent nor any significant "banana peeling" effect for the metal on the underside of the witness plate. The metal adjacent even such a small charge is simply granulated and blown away, atomized to dust in its disintegration. The effect is much the same as if a hollow drive punch like is used for sheet metal work had been placed upon the witness plate and struck by a hammer. This sort of cutting effect upon metal is demonstrated only by high velocity explosives. It is especially unusual and interesting when the effect is observed for such very small charges. Miniature shaped charges are a reality.

There simply are no comparable materials to my knowledge anyway, which can be readily made from OTC raw materials. And there are only a very few of the most exotic and much more difficult to make materials discovered which are comparable or marginally superior as substitutes for these more easily and cheaply made materials. If you have been looking for the "good stuff", delving through the literature and experimenting away, do yourself a favor and dont try to reinvent the wheel, while failing to directly evaluate these much more simple, economical materials and witness their excellent performance firsthand.

I have made these compounds several times from precursors every one of which was also made from OTC materials. The synthesis of the sodium azide is the most difficult part, but worth the trouble if no convenient source for sodium azide is available. Going on record as a purchaser of sodium azide could be unwise, so I have chosen to avoid that potential worry. Since the sodium azide is the most difficult precursor the effort was made to develop the most efficient use for the sodium azide, in producing the highest quantity possible of a satisfactory initiator.

After referring to my lab notes, I saw that it was actually a slight variation of example compound 5 of the patent US3431156 which I synthesized, and my variation had produced a quantitative yield, which is a marked improvement over the 82 per cent yield reported by the patent. The patent had reported (line 10 page 6) that up to 13 moles of lead azide were possible to be absorbed by each 4 moles of the host complex, but that an upper limit of 11 moles would be used for production to reduce the potential precipitation of lead azide which may not be trapped in the matrix of the host complex. By a modified reaction sequence and higher temperatures, I achieved good results increasing to 12 moles the entrapped azide for each 4 moles the host compound of example 5, and achieved a quantitative yield of end product, agreeing with the increased molecular weight for the added 1 mole of lead azide. The molecular weight for the clathrate compound of example 5 is 9311.85, while the variation I made has a molecular weight of 9603.08. When it comes to molecular weights, all of the clathrates are astonishing, as is their ease of synthesis, storage stability, chemical stability, and initiatory power. The azo-clathrates have "the right stuff". The compounds retain the desirable initiating quality of lead azide, while eliminating its faults.

My theory is that the way in which the host complex is made and the conditions under which the azide is subsequently added to the host complex has a bearing upon increasing the upper limit of how many moles of entrapped lead azide it may contain, and the saturation limit can vary also according to the particular host compound, 16 moles of included lead azide may be possible from indications in some of my experiments with host compounds mentioned but not specifically detailed in the patent US3431156 as experimental examples. This is what I meant by saying that "A similar process can be used to provide enrichment to the properties of the compound in example 4 of US3293091."

To my thinking the patent US3431156 is a "goldmine" of data as a technical disclosure itself, as well as suggesting further general experiments or refinements related to the example compounds it discloses. It really surprises me there are no subsequent patents having been published since 1969 regarding further work on the same general type of compounds. Perhaps Remington Arms and DuPont have done further experiments but kept the research confidential for business reasons. There was an earlier mention of the formation of complexes of this sort in a 1922 patent GB180605, by the German chemist Dr. Walter Friedrich, (see line 98 page two), however there were no detailed examples. It seems likely that some of the early references to "mixed salts" may have in fact been clathrates, but many years would pass before the details would be described extensively for the first time as an advanced art in US3431156.

Described below are the synthesis details for my experiment with a slightly enhanced variation of the general type of compound described in US3431156, example 5. It is interesting when when a synthesis produces quantitative yields, for several reasons. It is a rare result, and many times the stability of a product from a quantitative yield synthesis is excellent. The resulting product has formed from a synergy of reactions which went to completion without side reactions and byproducts, and efficiently formed the target compound as the single "most probable" result, excluding other possible products. The intended product of a high yield synthesis will often prove to be very stable and high purity compound. The inherent quality control involved is desirable for materials to be used as explosives. A synthesis of 4 (basic lead picrate, lead nitrate, lead azide) 12 (lead azide) molecular weight 9603.08

NOTE: In my opinion the proportional formula designation for clathrates is somewhat arbitrary, but the ratios are correct. For example the theoretical minimum molecular weight might be only one fourth of 9603.08, or the actual molecular weight could be any one of several multiples of that number. Its a damn mystery, so I shall leave the true structural determination to others who have the instruments required and the interest to pursue such questions. Crystallographers are sure to enjoy pondering the actual structure of this energetic "Buckyball" sort of molecular matrix.

Experimental :

An alkaline solution of sodium picrate is made as follows:

4.6 grams (four and six tenths gram) pure dry pale yellow picric acid is dissolved with stirring in 180 ml hot distilled water, and to the stirred solution is added a solution of 1.7 grams (one and seven tenths grams) NaOH in 40 ml distilled water. The sodium picrate solution is transferred to an addition funnel and kept warm in a hot water bath.

Into a tall form (Berzelius) 500 ml beaker is placed a magnetic stirbar and 100 ml of distilled water. On a stirrer hotplate is made a hot solution of lead nitrate by adding 25 grams (twenty-five grams) lead nitrate to this stirred 100 ml of hot water. While stirring, this lead nitrate solution is heated to and maintained just below the boiling point. 95 degrees centigrade is fine.

The warm sodium picrate solution is added dropwise slowly at a rate of about one drop every two or three seconds, into the vortex of the vigorously stirred hot lead nitrate solution, continuing stirring and heating for ten minutes after the addition is completed. The precipitated material will initially be bright yellow, and change slowly in color to a darker orange, as a more mature crystalline precipitate is developed towards the end of this step in the synthesis, which results in a suspension of crystalline basic lead picrate, possibly basic lead picrate / lead nitrate double salt, in residual lead nitrate solution.

The valve on the addition funnel is closed, and in the addition funnel is placed a solution of 5.3 grams (five and three tenths grams) of sodium azide dissolved in 50 ml of distilled water. This sodium azide solution is added very slowly by drops, at a rate of about one drop every four or five seconds, to the vigorously stirred suspension of crystals. These basic lead picrate crystals suspended in the stirred mixture with remaining lead nitrate will be changed in color and size as they react with the sodium azide being introduced. This change is due to the formation of the host complex and its subsequent saturation with entrapped lead azide formed within the "cage-crystal matrix" of the host complex. Heating and stirring is continued past the end of this sodium azide addition, for an additonal ten minutes and the heating is then discontinued, yet vigorous stirring of the slowly cooling suspension of microcrystals is continued, maintaining the crystals in suspension for an additional 1 hour as the beaker and its stirred contents slowly air cools. These slow additions and extended periods of stirring are necessary for good completion of the reactions and good crystal formation. The clathrate complex has a very low solubility and so its crystal development is a bit sluggish, and requires the very gradual, steadily maintained and controlled reaction conditions be followed as described for best results.

The stirring is stopped and the reaction mixture is allowed to cool to room temperature. The supernatant liquid is decanted from the crystals, and the crystals are rinsed with 50 ml of distilled water, and washed from the beaker onto a coffee filter with a stream of distilled water from a wash bottle. The filter is placed upon a stack of paper towels to blotter away most of the residual moisture. The granulation mesh of the microcrystals is extremely fine, and there is a point at which the drying crystals are not quite completely dry, when the material may be freed of lumps by light pressure applied by a plastic spoon. The yield of dried crystals is 24 grams, which is 100 per cent of theory.

Try obtaining a 24 gram yield of a first class primary any other way from only 5.3 grams of sodium azide, and the economy of this compound is soon realized.

Polverone - 7-3-2003 at 13:39

Mr. Anonymous, whoever you may be, thank you for the continuation of your detailed and valuable reports. I realize that it must take some time to prepare these messages, but please continue to share them as long as you have things to say and time to say them.

Madog - 7-3-2003 at 18:06

mr annonamous, I LOVE YOU!!!

Hard Numbers

bigbob - 8-3-2003 at 12:37

I'd like to know if anybody has been able to find some hard numbers on this compound (complex?)? I so far have not been able to. I was thinking along the lines of vdet, trazul tests, drop tests, flame sensitivity, etc...this seems to be a very interesting compound which on top of that is relatively easy to synthesize. Keep up the good work!

[Edited on 8-3-2003 by bigbob]

ode to an initiator

Polverone - 8-3-2003 at 13:20

Normally I'd put something like this in Whimsy, but I doubt that Mr. Anonymous would be able to see it there.
Quote:
From: Anonymous
To: (my e-mail address)
Subject: ode to an initiator -

My pretty million crystals glitter in the sun,
prisms from the mixture that formed them every one.

In the cauldron mother liquor, a bit of this and that,
the cradle of creation for crystals there appear.

What will be your spectral gifts of ever changing hue,
little diamonds in the magic broth now shimmering so new.

My pretty azo-clathrates you have your act down pat,
to weather many storage trials, so stable and serene,
so mellow and mild mannered your values quietly seen,
till one day the kindling spark,
the marching call has come,
and fully suited to your task, high order just like that.
The synergy of partners, oh the beauty of the dance!

Your molecular enormity, high density, and high energy is a must,
small critical mass primary unequivocality, well disciplined but true,
the aluminum witness plate is all ways so overmatched by you,
as if punctured by a laser, the clean edged signature hole of metal wrent to dust.

Berzelius beakered pedigree or lowly mason jar,
you never minded or complained, knowing your full worth.
Gleam there in the sunbeam spotlight on your filter cake.
Little microcrystals, shine on there awhile,
shine on like the stars you are for when your work has come,
for there you have your job to do, as masters of the art.

Polverone - 9-3-2003 at 12:22

Quote:
From: Anonymous
To: (my e-mail address)
Subject: hard numbers for azo-clathrates

Comprehensive test data for the 4/12 azo-clathrate and other "designer explosive" variations is unavailable so far as I know. Many "designer compositions" are possible for these type complexes, but some representative general examples are described by the patent. The velocity would of course vary with diameter of the charge and confinement. Exactly what is the velocity, I dont know, but the witness plate evidence is that the number will be high. I do know the material is capable of high order detonating sensitive secondaries even in small diameters with no confinement whatsoever. I did not test PETN, but the indication is that the amount of initiator required would be small, and even close proximity to the PETN would likely set it off.

To get a general idea of some figures which would describe initiator quality, see the general performance table beginning line 29, page 3 of US3431156 for related, but slightly less powerful compounds. The figures would be as good for the 4/12 complex because of the increased relative content of lead azide in its total weight. The lead azide content is the homogeneous internal accelerator of the "booster matrix" of the host compound. Note that the initiator charge weights on the table are in grains, not grams. One grain is about 65 milligrams, so the charges are small, the quarter grain charges are a little over 16 milligrams. Also note that the test capsules are miniature detonators about three quarters of an inch long.

To fully initiate a two gram secondary in a magnum sized cap for insensitive blasting explosives, would require very much larger initiating charges to "overdrive" the secondary, as is desirable for good cap performance. In practical sized detonators, the azo-clathrate would perform on a weight basis only, slightly less good than pure lead azide would perform. However, it is good to keep in mind that pure lead azide is used only freshly prepared as a lab test standard, and not used otherwise because of its dangers for field use. And on the weight basis of lead azide entrapped within the azo-clathrate, there is less azide present in a comparable charge of the azo-clathrate, than for a charge of pure lead azide having equal power, so the net effect is that the power of the lead azide itself is enhanced overall with respect to the amount of it required to participate in the initiation of the secondary. The efficiency of the lead azide entrapped within the host complex is increased in comparison to the lead azide used alone, on a weight basis for the lead azide component only. So, the host complex does not function as a diluent for the lead azide, but amplifies the effect of the lead azide. The energy of the host complex alone and the practical value of the lead azide alone are each inferior to the sum obtained when the two are combined in the same crystalline structure, where the properties of each complement the other. A similar synergistic phenomena has been observed for simple physical mixtures of lead azide with other materials, like lead styphnate, (for example 1 part lead azide to 2 parts lead styphnate) where the mixture has greater initiating power than may be accounted for by the performance of either constituent alone. Coprecipitated lead azide, lead styphnate "surface bonded crystal" compositions have been produced. However in those compositions the exposed lead azide is still subject to deterioration and static sensitivity, and chemical instability that are problems which the azo-clathrates have resolved. The general trend for the azo-clathrates is that all variations are exceptional initiators having desirable properties.

The difference that I have observed among them is that the small critical mass minimum required for unconfined high order detonation, varies with the lead azide content. The greater is the entrapped percentage of lead azide for a particular complex, the smaller becomes the size of a test sample which will high order detonate unconfined. The self acceleration and output can be varied to obtain a hotter or milder composition, by changing the precursors and their proportions to obtain whatever composition is desired for the end product, within the limits possible for a defined clathrate variety related to those precursors. At least dozens of different clathrate complexes are possible, each being a unique composition of matter having a definite formula.

PHILOU Zrealone - 23-3-2003 at 17:06

This coprecipitating complex should contain:

6,63g Pb(OC6H2(NO2)3)2
11,64g Pb(N3)2
8,59g Pb(NO3)2

Total = 26,86 g

I wonder if mixing ultrafine powders of the above in the same proportion will lead to similar properties!
It is obvious each ingredient gives its bennefits to the others!
Pb(N3)2 sensitive HE free lots of N2
Pb(picrate)2 sensitive HE free lots of gases included a lot of unburned C!
Pb(NO3)2 oxydiser upon heating free NOx improve OB and heat output!

halfpindc3h6n6o6 - 1-6-2010 at 13:24

Bigbob heres "some" numbers, if you were asking for numbers regarding lead azide and lead picrate....
Pb Azide....
Det Vel=4600m/s
Lead Block Test=112cc
Deflag Temp=320*C
Impact Sens=High-4 Nm (scale 0 to 20 twenty being low)
Friction Sens=Very High-0.1 kp (scale 0 to 10 ten being low)
Water Sens=Low
Chem Formula=Pb(N3)2
Colorless crystals, initiate with hot spark, reacts violently with copper, brass, bronze, lead

Pb Picrate...
No specific numbers but commented as weak, suggests using booster.
Impact and friction very high 0.1
water sens. moderate
deflagrates 330C
Yellow Needle structure
Pb(C6H2N3O7)2.H2O

Source: Field Manufactured Explosives




[Edited on 1-6-2010 by halfpindc3h6n6o6]

quicksilver - 2-6-2010 at 06:06

There is a difference between basic & normal lead picrate & in fact lead picrate may be synthesized to act in a moderately powerful manner. But the clathrate lattice is such that the efficiency of lead azide is maintained, yet it's static sensitivity may be lessened. This is an empirical observation - yet it makes sense due to lead azide's fault in this respect is supplanted by dextrinating; there seems every reason that developing a lattice crystalline would act in a similar fashion.
The clathrate is stable. Most everyone who has experimented with it - knows just how stable it is. It also is quite efficient; being slightly below service azide, LA1331, etc. It had long been my interest to determine what the elements of electric stimulation had on energetic materials (past posts). The limited research in that area placed lead picrate in a much lower sensitivity level than Azide, making the possibility of the clathrate safer, a possibility.
Additionally, the unique issue is that the proposed material had not seen it's way into multiple patents; making it's likelihood of trade secret another possibility

Bert - 22-1-2011 at 13:30

I had experimented with the "Mr. Anonymous" Lead azo-clathrate procedure perhaps 7 years ago. Unfortunately, the notes and resulting dialogue were posted on roguesci.org and I've gone through a couple of computer losses since- No lab notes left!

I had reason to revisit this lately, and am wondering if anyone has a more complete lab procedure. Most particularly the volumes maintained and total times required for those long, slow solution drips into the nearly boiling and rapidly stirred crystal suspension... I recall failure resulting from too fast additions, and 7 years down the road can't recall where the volume of the beaker was at on the successful attempts. I do recall significant water being needed to wash down the solids on the beaker wall and make up for evaporation.

So disappointing to spend 4 hours at the bench only to see voluminous, ugly, mustard yellow mud instead of those nice, dense, sparkly micro crystals...

As Austin Powers said: "I've lost me mojo!"

mabuse_ - 23-1-2011 at 03:56

I'm interested too.

Are there any known facts about these compounds,
such as numbers for friction/impact sensitivity, lead block tests and Vdet? I can't find anything?

And isn't there any drawback I don't see at the moment?
If this stuff has such favorable properties, why are commercial blasting caps are still based on lead azide?

quicksilver - 23-1-2011 at 07:30

The original clathrate concept* was invented by a Nun as a crystal within a crystal matrix. The azo element was a "stretching" of the NaN3 weight to expand the use of what was once a difficult to obtain material. It's elements in caps had a POSSIBLE drawback of reactivity to lead or copper. But it's extremely effective and has great yield. Possibly as little as 10th gram initiation weight (a bit more than straight lead azide but certainly less than most others). It seemingly had not been picked up commercially but this could be due to patent wars, etc.

* Conceptually.

That person's name may have been lost to history OR worked upon anonymously.

[Edited on 23-1-2011 by quicksilver]

Rosco Bodine - 23-1-2011 at 15:37

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=389&am...

Sister Martinette Hagan aka Sister Mary Martinette Kathleen Hagan

"Clathrate Inclusion Compounds"
Hardcover: 189 pages
Publisher: New York: Reinhold Publishing 1962. (1962)
ASIN: B0000CLI8G
Shipping Weight: 1.7 pounds

original price $6.50
used copies good condition ~ $135.00
used copies fair condition ~ $25.00
http://www.mysteryandimagination.com/ap_hagan_martinette_sis...

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/ed040pA222.2

[Edited on 24-1-2011 by Rosco Bodine]

Enjoy

franklyn - 23-1-2011 at 18:42

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015023160255
Clathrate Inclusion Compounds.gif - 20kB

Bert - 24-1-2011 at 12:36

Thanks for the various links, the original basic Lead picrate igniter patent had the solution strength/temp vs. crystal size information- I suspect I have been allowing the water volume to go too low now.

Going to need more supplies to pursue this.

I note Rosco's various refinements on mol size picric acid synthesis here:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=4457&a...

And the Lead salts preparation thread here:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=5490

(6 pages into it, haven't found what I'm looking for yet-)

I've got substantial amounts of Lead tetroxide on hand, and wonder if any have tried synthesis of Lead nitrate from red Lead oxide? All my metallic Lead has Tin, Antimony and probably a bit of Arsenic alloyed with it. Good for bullets, not so much for chemistry I'm thinking.

(edit)
Ah, yes.

Pb3O4 + 4HNO3 ~~~> PbO2 + 2H2O + 2Pb(NO3)2

Filter out the Lead oxide and crystalize the Lead nitrate from solution.


[Edited on 24-1-2011 by Bert]

Rosco Bodine - 24-1-2011 at 13:29

Actually there are things that could probably make the synthesis easier,
and doubling or tripling the dilution is something worth trying, because of the low solubility intermediates. Another variation is the use of a centrifugal impeller type of stirring head which has a central inlet tube descending to nearly the bottom of the flask or beaker where the inlet current of liquid would tend to keep solids in a loop circulation, being suctioned from the bottom where they settle and rising in the current of liquid being spun out into the upper vortex by the hollow impeller disc. Keeping solids in suspension during this synthesis is similar to the problem with reactions using iron filings, the heavy particles are difficult to keep suspended in the liquid phase. I have used a mag stirrer in combination with
a propeller like a little model boat propeller on the end of stirrer shaft from above, both running at high speed, to keep the solids in suspension and prevent dunes of solids accumulating on the bottom. You do need a good loop circulation
going to keep the particles in suspension.

Hennig Brand - 12-8-2011 at 11:37

Here is slide 19 and 20 from a presentation put on by the Beijing Institute of Technology in 2010. Sounds like they might be talking about our azo-clathrate, or something similar when they describe the multiple salt.

From Primary Explosive Presentation in China.jpg - 149kB From Primary Explosive Presentation in China next page.jpg - 186kB

The Lead Styphnate/ Lead Azide co-precipitate looks interesting. I believe Microtek made this (it might have been a long time ago at E&W), but he said he was unsure if it was a double salt or just a co-precipitate.

Here is the link to the full set of slides from the presentation.
http://www.cecd.umd.edu/documents/presentations/Hong-Kong/Zh...



edit:
I may have misquoted Microtek (it was a while since I read that post), and I may be misusing the term co-precipitation. It seems there are several different kinds of co-precipitation.


[Edited on 13-8-2011 by Hennig Brand]

Rosco Bodine - 12-8-2011 at 12:37

How about that, it sure is likely to be the clathrate having those three compounds in one composition. It is good that current research is being done. There are very probably at least a few useful energetic compounds yet to be identified and some of these may have practical value.

Hennig Brand - 13-8-2011 at 07:14

How should the clathrate behave when a small quantity of the loose powder is lit? Should it behave just like Lead Azide and detonate even in tiny amounts?

I am experimenting a bit, but I think I need to get some higher quality Picric Acid. I started with only 1g of Picric Acid instead of 4.6g, and scaled the quantities of the other reagents accordingly. I did however use the same amount of distilled water as the full scale synthesis called for, and used the same addition rates as well. My yield was only 90% of what Mr. Anonymous got. I imagine I am having the same trouble with my Picric Acid that I had before when trying to make Basic Lead Picrate.

Here is a picture of my yield. The picture doesn' t show it but, if held up to the light it is millions of sparkly crystals.

Azo-Clathrate.JPG - 289kB

[Edited on 13-8-2011 by Hennig Brand]

Rosco Bodine - 13-8-2011 at 08:05

By color I can tell you that isn't it. The color should be close to the same color as rust an orange brown color.

Hennig Brand - 13-8-2011 at 10:49

Same trouble I was having over a year ago with the Basic Lead Picrate synthesis, I think. I will get a better sample of Picric Acid and try again, thanks.

Rosco Bodine - 13-8-2011 at 11:08

Yeah I was looking at that from last July where quicksilver posted a picture of what the basic lead picrate substrate looks like
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=389&am...
and that is a bit darker but not far distant from the color of the azo-clathrate which is somewhat lighter and more orange looking, and is actually derived from the basic lead picrate which forms first.
The post about Three Basic Igniters also has relevance.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=389&am...
There really truly is a process chemistry involved which is essential in terms of the temperatures, and stirring and slow addition requirement ....it must be very precisely done or it simply won't work. Chemistry has governing subtleties for
certain reactions and those definitely are in effect here, and can't be fudged or avoided. If the process is not strictly followed .....the end product will not be the same. I have often been dismayed at how so many other people will perform an experiment I have described with precision, but will vary some parameter because of estimating it really shouldn't change the outcome ....but it does. I'm not even sure myself why that would happen for some of these things, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen differently when a parameter is changed in some reactions, while in other reactions it may do no harm. I haven't really done any extensive "failure analysis" about what doesn't work, because my focus and energy has been directed at what does seem to work. You could probably write encyclopedic volumes about all the reactions that didn't go as planned compared to the few notebooks containing reactions that do go well .....and life is short.

That Chinese report mentioned "formed quantitatively" which concurs with my experience and makes me pretty sure they were duplicating what I reported here. But I would differ with the "basic lead azide" component although it may be possible it is there.....maybe they found that by analysis as a "permutation" I missed in the theoretical analysis and stoichiometry predicting the formula. I never did an actual elemental analysis of the product and I'm not sure how reliable it would be with that level of specificity anyway.

As for how it behaves on ignition it is not as unequivocal as lead azide for small amounts it has a larger critical mass so it is substantially more tame than pure lead azide. It is not as proportionally more tame than would directly correlate with its proportional content of lead azide, because of a synergistic effect. There is a definte performance penalty for initiating capacity and critical mass compared to lead azide. If you want lead azide you can make lead azide. The azo-clathrate is not meant to be a substitute lead azide, but is a stable variant which has been "detuned" to gain chemical stability and easier ignition ....so there is a price paid on performance in the initiating ability compared to straight lead azide. For some uses then the lead azide will be superior, but for other reasons for other applications the azo-clathrate will be superior. Designers choice is the name of that scenario.


[Edited on 13-8-2011 by Rosco Bodine]

Hennig Brand - 13-8-2011 at 16:38

It took a lot of patience but, I think I followed the procedure very closely except for the much greater dilution. I don' t think the greater dilution would hurt however. I think you mentioned that dilution might make things easier even. I am working on some new picric acid as I write this. I have been known to cut a few corners, but I would be surprised if the problem isn' t with my picric acid. I think I screwed up the picric acid synthesis last July during the sulfonation.

The azo-clathrate sounds like it makes very good use of a valuable resource (sodium azide).

Rosco Bodine - 13-8-2011 at 18:35

Did the intermediate basic lead picrate or possible basic lead picrate / lead nitrate double salt have the rust coloration before the addition of the sodium azide was begun ? That would be pretty definitive unless you somehow had the proportions for the bis basic lead picrate lead nitrate compound mentioned in that second patent of the three .....because that yellow color for the bis compound is more identical to what you show .....a bright yellow. The clathrate is more of reddish brown nearer to a lead styphnate color. I haven't tried the greater dilution so that may be the difference.

[Edited on 14-8-2011 by Rosco Bodine]

Hennig Brand - 13-8-2011 at 20:08

No, it did not get the proper color before the addition of the sodium azide. It did go a bit orange but not as much as the description in the synthesis said it should. I forgot to mention that.

I used the proportions and procedure from the Mr. Anonymous synthesis posted at the start of this thread.

I have made a little picric acid directly from phenol, we will see if that makes a difference. I will try and do a little testing tomorrow.

[Edited on 14-8-2011 by Hennig Brand]

Rosco Bodine - 13-8-2011 at 20:57

Quote: Originally posted by Hennig Brand  
No, it did not get the proper color before the addition of the sodium azide. It did go a bit orange but not as much as the description in the synthesis said it should. I forgot to mention that.

I used the proportions and procedure from the Mr. Anonymous synthesis posted at the start of this thread.

I have made a little picric acid directly from phenol, we will see if that makes a difference. I will try and do a little testing tomorrow.


It sounds like a materials or possibly a pH issue. The azo-clathrate is a basic lead salt so alkalinity is critically definitive here, and if it isn't just right ....well uh oh, it's right :D or it isn't right :( .....you know how that one goes, if it isn't right then you get no joy on the result.

[Edited on 14-8-2011 by Rosco Bodine]

Hennig Brand - 14-8-2011 at 10:22

I think I may have solved any possible materials problems with a fresh batch of picric acid from phenol. The problem is definately before the sodium azide addition I would say, probably ruling out any problem with the sodium azide.

As for the pH issue, you mentioned something to me in the picric acid thread last year about titrating a solution of NaOH for greater accuracy. I can make up a solution of sodium hydroxide and titrate it to find its exact concentration. Titrating against hardware store muriatic acid should get me pretty close, don' t you think? This is what I will do if it comes to that.

I am still pretty sure my picric acid is heavily contaminated. I think I may have oxidized some of the ASA during sulfonation.


[Edited on 14-8-2011 by Hennig Brand]

Rosco Bodine - 14-8-2011 at 11:05

Yeah it is a lot more accurate weighing a larger quantity to make a stock solution
as a standard, a manually calibrated solution which can be dispensed more accurately by volume to provide the needed equivalent, than is the alternative manipulation of weighing out a small amount of especially an air and moisture sensitive material like NaOH which may have unknown composition right from the bottle. Actually it was no coincidence that I linked to some useful laboratory solution tables from Merck ....sort of a little hint there :D The weight of NaOH can be hit close enough by direct measuring done quickly with pure reagent and accurate scales .....but really using a standard solution is the proper way of doing measuring like this so you know for sure what equivalent you are measuring out while dispensing material for an experiment to know it is in fact an accurate amount. If you do things carefully for much work pH indicators aren't needed
except for confirmation analyses on the stock solutions. Food grade sodium bicarbonate is a better choice really for dry measure, especially on a humid day.
I often will substitute sodium bicarbonate where that is no problem and better accuracy is needed and that should work fine here, at least to the point of neutralization of the picric acid, and then the extra alkalinity can be gotten with NaOH stock solution or "dry" measure of NaOH to reduce the error. I have used all three methods pretty much interchangeably without much thought about it.
A very good and accurate standard is fresh 1280 battery electrolyte, which generally from the manufacturer is absolutely pure and dead on accurate,
and easy enough to double check against a bicarb titration. This is close
enough for anything you are likely to ever do in a lab.

krazypunk50 - 15-8-2011 at 14:22

Should the synthesis of the azo-clathrate be done under reflux as to not lose any water? or is that unnecessary?

Rosco Bodine - 15-8-2011 at 15:38

If reflux was necessary then I would have specified reflux. If you should need to add any makeup water, or to dislodge any crusting, just use distillled water from a wash bottle as needed.

Hennig Brand - 15-8-2011 at 19:40

Yeah, so it looks like I was probably wrong about my picric acid from ASA being the cause of my problems. I tried another clathrate synthesis with some very nice looking TNP from phenol, and guess what, I got basically the same result as the first time. Well I suppose I should be happy, because if it was the cause, it would have just indicated another/different problem (one with the TNP).

Here is a picture of the ~8g of picric acid from phenol that is left after a couple of experiments. I put no effort or time into crystallization, as the TNP was to be used just as a reagent.
Picric Acid from Phenol.JPG - 335kB

I next moved on to titrating a solution of NaOH I made up. I measured out 8g of my NaOH and dissolved it in distilled water. Once dissolved the volume was brought up so as to make (what should be) a solution of 4% NaOH by weight. An analyte was prepared from 96% sulfuric acid of trusted concentration. One mL of the acid was measured using a graduated pipette, and dissolved in 50mL of distilled water. A drop or two of phenolphthalein indicator solution was added to the analyte. The earlier prepared sodium hydroxide solution was added to the acid solution from a burette until a persistent color change occurred. It was found that my 4% NaOH solution was actually closer to a 3.75% NaOH solution.

I decided to focus on Basic Lead Picrate until I get it figured out. If I can' t make the picrate, I can' t make the clathrate.
I used my titrated NaOH solution with known concentration, and tried a small Basic Lead Picrate synthesis. I did get a darker orange solution this time. The picture shows a 50mL beaker with the orange lead picrate suspended in the reaction medium.
Lead Picrate orange color.JPG - 294kB

Here is a picture of what should have been basic lead picrate.
Lead Picrate Dry.JPG - 350kB

While better, I still don' t think it is dark enough. This leaves me with the lead nitrate to examine. Is it, or what it is possibly contaminated with, adding more than normal acidity to the reaction and throwing off the pH?

I think you are right about the pH issue now. I now have a NaOH solution of known concentration, and I am fairly confident I have good TNP. How likely is it that there is something wrong with my lead nitrate? I used lead chimney flashing to make it, if that matters.


Here is the basic lead picrate synthesis I used from the first page of patent 1,478,429. The whole patent was posted by Rosco in the thread "Picric Acid Different Instruction".
Basic Lead Picrate Synthesis.jpg - 313kB


[Edited on 16-8-2011 by Hennig Brand]

Rosco Bodine - 15-8-2011 at 20:41

That isn't nearly dark enough to be basic lead picrate. You need a tall form beaker with a deep swirling vortex sweeping the bottom and churning everything in suspension. I don't think your reaction conditions are right.
Too small a scale is likely a big problem because you can't develop the vortex and get the suspension effect needed in that small of a beaker .....a 500ml or larger berzelius is needed and really a 1000ml might be even better. You basically want a tornado in a sleeve, and nothing duning on the bottom. Let me check my notes for basic lead picrate
and see if I can tweak Friedrich's numbers for you.

The literature is correct and has been exhaustively verified. Basic lead picrate is orange brown like a dark rust color not quite as dark as lead styphnate. You are correct to get the basic lead picrate right as a first step. Sheet lead is generally very pure lead, and it has to be pure so it will be soft and easily formed and so that it will have good corrosion resistance. You could have residual acidity particularly if the nitrate salt is not well dried. The order of addition must be correct and there must be sufficient time allowed for the reaction to continue to run with stirring and heating being continued past the point of development of the precipitate, let it keep running twenty or thirty minutes at near boiling with vigorous stirring after the end of addition. You may just be not letting the reaction run long enough. I'm sort of baffled at this because I've run these reactions several times without any issue. I don't do anything extraordinary, just use pure ingredients as described and everything goes fine.

You could try this

Basic Lead Picrate

Experimental:
4.65 grams of picric acid is added to 100ml distilled H2O.
1.6 grams of NaOH is added to 35ml distilled H2O and upon dissolution is added to the previously prepared picric acid in water. When all is in solution this alkaline sodium picrate solution is placed in an addition funnel.

7.3 grams Pb(NO3)2 is added to 100ml distilled H2O in a 500ml tall form beaker on a 7 X 7 Cimarec stirrer hotplate.
A polygon profile 1 X 3/8" stirbar is a minimum requirement.
The solution is heated with stirring to just below boiling point. Try to maintain a range of 95-98C and begin dropwise addition of the alkaline sodium picrate at a rate of 1 drop every 2-3 seconds with stirring and heating continued for
at least ten minutes after the end of the addition. Yield is 9 grams basic lead picrate 98% of theory.

A note in the margin for a slightly different but similar experiment was made that most of the color deepening from bright yellow to much darker bronze color occurs during the continuation of stirring and heating after the end of the addition, the final color development is a color described as a "brick red coloration" reddish orange brown
very fine microcrystalline precipitate which is dense and settles instantly when stirring is stopped.

Different experiments used greater dilution for the lead nitrate solution up to 300ml and varied the amount of lead nitrate up to 8 grams, but yields were lower at 8.5 grams
for a similar product.

So here's a song which seems appropo :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccenFp_3kq8 I Can't Go For That (No Can Do) official video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGZwPGsfcwM audio only

[Edited on 16-8-2011 by Rosco Bodine]

Hennig Brand - 16-8-2011 at 05:40

Thanks for the analysis. I will try and focus on the procedure this time around, and do a full scale reaction. In the picture above I was only using 0.5g of picric acid in a 50mL beaker, so as not to waste chemicals, as you suggest this may have caused a big problem. By trying to save chemicals I probably shot myself in the foot.

I will try a full scale basic lead picrate synthesis and use due diligence when following the procedure, using extra care when following temperatures, rates of addition, etc.



[Edited on 16-8-2011 by Hennig Brand]

Rosco Bodine - 16-8-2011 at 09:58

Scale matters for sure if it adversely affects the efficiency of suspension of the particles, as a circulation loop is essential for these reactions to proceed, a high speed stirrer is needed here to effect what is something like a hotplate blender.
Usually if you set the beaker somewhat off center it will destabilize the vortex from being concentric axially oriented in a beaker, and if you are lucky the vortex will do an obital sweep at a slow rate to cyclically churn up any duned particles. It is absolutely essential to maintain the stirred suspension and that is difficult because the particles are dense, their tendency is to stay on the bottom against anything but a very strong current of liquid which keeps them hydraulically mined from their little temporary hillsides being continually swept away. A centrifugal impeller having a coaxial intake tube near the bottom to vacuum up the sediment and discharge it radially above would probably be the ideal setup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkdqXfasg80 One On One

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0LPNJUGnT8 Say It Isn't So

For the trained observer, What do you see in the final frame ?

[Edited on 16-8-2011 by Rosco Bodine]

Hennig Brand - 17-8-2011 at 04:46

Okay, I did a full scale basic lead picrate synthesis. I kept the temperature between 90 and 95C through the whole addition of the basic sodium picrate solution. The addition was done painfully slowly taking about 2 hours to complete. The stirring was extremely vigorous using magnetic stirring.
After the end of addition the stirring was continued for an additional 40 minutes with the temperature kept around 90-95C. After the 40 minutes the heat was turned off, but stirring was continued as the beaker slowly cooled.

Here is a picture of some of my yield on a white piece of paper to the left of a small sample of the stuff made before in the small beaker. As you can see it is darker but not that much. It is however much more crystalline and free flowing.

Lead Picrate Comparison.JPG - 283kB

The only thing left that could be at fault is my lead nitrate(I think), but I don' t see any reason why it should be.

Could it be that some very subtle difference, possibly a minor contaminant could cause a drastic difference in color? Could my sample still be mostly chemically pure? According to several internet sources lead styphnate for instance can be any color between yellow and brown.

At this point I am hoping I am going to be able to read something that will break the mystery.

BTW, my samples from the attempted azo-clathrate syntheses are very powerful primary explosives, even though not the right color.


Edit:
I have some reagent grade lead carbonate, I suppose I could use that and see if it made a difference. What do you think?

[Edited on 17-8-2011 by Hennig Brand]

quicksilver - 17-8-2011 at 06:48

I had a lot of fun with this synthesis & had limited difficulty. However my basic lead picrate was a known good sample. I'm thinking about Roscoe's comment re: scale because superficially I don't see any problem but the "vortex" is tough to maintain with any but a larger-level stir plate and bar about 4". I was lucky as I have a very powerful plate and one bar that will get a damn fast swirl.
A long time back someone made a comment re: coloration and hydrogen. I tried to look for that as I thought it might be related (but no luck).


note: coloration (my sample) was a "sunshine yellow" to almost white-yellow, a bright crunchy crystalline of broken irregular shape w/ consistent hardness.

[Edited on 17-8-2011 by quicksilver]

Rosco Bodine - 17-8-2011 at 09:16

Actually the 7 X 7 Cimarec has a 2 pole motor that runs twice as fast as the 4 pole motor in the 12 X 12, and with a small stir bar running high speed it will begin
an orbiting precession sort of effect that does a good bottom sweeping any dunes of solids off the bottom. I have a range of stirbars from microfleas up to the humungus so I know the drill. It takes a bit of trial and error to find what combination is right for a particular situation.

What is to account for the light coloration I have no idea. That doesn't track with
what I have gotten which is a distinctly more bronze color. This isn't just my observation over the years, but pictures from a couple of other people besides quicksilver have showed the bronze coloration also. I would say try pushing the temperature right up to the b.p. and backoff just slightly. The reason I have run this reaction hotter is because I observed it worked better at the more elevated temperature. It still worked at a lower temperature but went a lot slower.

The slowness of the addition is not so critical on the basic lead picrate stage, the run in of the addition over a half hour is adequately slow....at least for the mid range dilution, because I have a note to the effect a half hour for the addition on one of the experiments I did. The really more tediously slow addition is more important for the azide
when the basic lead picrate substrate is being further reacted.

What is the weight of the yield you get of the light colored product?

[Edited on 17-8-2011 by Rosco Bodine]

Hennig Brand - 17-8-2011 at 16:26

The yield for my last attempt, (from 2-3 days ago), at the azo-clathrate was 92% of your stated yield. I only started with 1g of picric acid however instead of 4.6g. Here is a picture of the yield (4.8g), from one gram of picric acid. It is a free-flowing pile of tiny crystals. I may have used 1 or 2% for testing, and I may have lost 1% or so in the filter paper. So a 94-95% yield is probably a pretty good estimate actually. I should have weighed it right away, instead of now when asked about it.
Azo-Clathrate maybe.JPG - 331kB

I got some things figured out today in regard to lead picrate as well. The color is all about the pH. The method controls the color a bit in the sense that denser crystals of the same material will make the color more concentrated and appear darker. Here is a picture of the yields from the last few attempts. I put much less care into the sythesis this time, I just added more NaOH. Which little pile do you think belongs to the last synthesis were I raised the pH?
Lead Picrate From Higher Alkalinity.JPG - 295kB


I increased the amount of NaOH by 40%, but kept everything else equal. I was still using the basic lead picrate method from that patent you posted in the picric acid thread.

Just to be sure I titrated my NaOH solution again, but this time against hardware store HCl. I got a value that was different from the first time, (against H2SO4), by only 0.4%. A difference which could easily be explained by the accuracy of my titration, I think. The hardware store acid is probably pretty darn close to what it says it is.


[Edited on 18-8-2011 by Hennig Brand]

Rosco Bodine - 17-8-2011 at 16:51

Now you are getting somewhere :D And yes it is a pH driven transition type reaction....you gotta wait for it....and wait for it....but the color transition does and should happen.

What's that French word .....finesse :cool:

As a trained observer, I would say the sample on the bottom right is
the genuine article ....
accept no substitutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svAs-6MiqxE Aint Nothin' Like The Real Thing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOrBgJUC6gw Aint Nothin' Like The Real Thing

A factor involved which may cause some slight variance on the alkalinity is the progressive hydrolysis of the Pb(NO3)2
to the basic salt which does occur in hot water and the further that goes, the lower would be the requirement of NaOH, because there is some loss of HNO3 which is volatile.

[Edited on 18-8-2011 by Rosco Bodine]

Hennig Brand - 17-8-2011 at 17:26

Holy crap, I just lit a little of my new basic lead picrate. Now it still isn' t as good as lead styphnate, but it is one hell of a lot closer to it than any other lead picrate I have made thus far. Very neat.:D

BTW, if people are wondering why we are talking about lead picrate it is because it is a fundamental part of the clathrate synthesis. Divide and conquer.

Rosco Bodine - 17-8-2011 at 18:48

Yeah the basic lead picrate is very close but not quite as energetic as lead styphnate, and has about the same nitrogen content. It really seems odd how normal lead picrate having twice the nitrogen as either basic lead picrate or lead styphnate would not be as powerful, but even the anhydrous normal lead picrate is a lesser beast than the other two ......go figure. However this observation is precisely what has made me wonder about the possibility of a double salt of normal lead picrate and normal lead styphnate, wondering if that may result in yet another anomaly. Predicting what may be the resulting performance is really hopeful guessing about these sorts of compositions.

Hennig Brand - 17-8-2011 at 20:04

Maybe its like the old expression ,"it's not what you've got, its what you can do with it". I am really impressed with the performance difference between the two different forms of lead picrate. Now it is time to try the clathrate again, soon. I am just about out of lead nitrate though, except for 3 or 4 grams. Maybe not tomorrow, but I see a clathrate experiment in my near future.

I suppose this double salt of normal lead picrate and normal lead styphnate isn' t something which shows up in the literature. It would be interesting if we could get it to form, and do some testing on it.

A little off topic but, what is the performance difference between the two different lead styphnates, the normal and the basic?

[Edited on 18-8-2011 by Hennig Brand]

Rosco Bodine - 17-8-2011 at 20:45

I couldn't tell you about the difference between the normal and basic lead styphnate because I never made the basic lead styphnate. The idea I had for the double salt of the normal lead picrate and the normal lead styphnate was that it could be a way of obtaining the anhydrous salt of each in mixture as compared with the monohydrates which is the usual form. Anhydrous versions tend to be more powerful. You could try making the non-azide clathrate from the basic lead picrate substrate. To do this leave the basic lead picrate stirring after it forms. Refill the addition funnel using a second additional amount of lead nitrate solution a bit more than what was used first 8.5 grams Pb(NO3)2 , mixed with a slight excess molar amount of potassium chlorate 2.8 grams KClO3 in about 80 - 100 ml distilled H2O and resume dropwise addition with continued heating and stirring as before. Yield should be 14.6 grams 90.7% of theory of basic lead picrate - lead nitrate - lead chlorate triple salt / clathrate, mustard yellow prismatic crystals having a strangely sparkling blue-purple silver glitter effect in sunlight. The crystals are parallelogram solids with all axes shifted, like a cube twice shifted out of plumb both laterally and front to back. A perchlorate variant should be interesting also but has not been tried.

This triple salt is a particularly good absorber of lead azide and appears may possibly be able to contain up to 16 moles of inclusion absorbed / caged lead azide. This triple clathrate is strictly "off label" and experimental and has not been made repeatedly or studied extensively for good confirmation. Uncertainty and not having done analysis for confirmation causes me some reservation about identifying it as a 4/16 compound. It appears to have a bit more sass than the 4/12 nitrate variant. The perchlorate variant is still one of those things on my "to do" list if / when time ever allows.

[Edited on 18-8-2011 by Rosco Bodine]

Hennig Brand - 18-8-2011 at 14:38

I would like to try your non-azide triple salt/clathrate at some point for sure, but first I need to make more lead nitrate and figure out a few more things. I tried another small batch of the azide clathrate by Mr. Anonymous using the last of my lead nitrate (5.5g), and once again to get the nice dark orange color before the sodium azide addition I had to add a large excess of NaOH. After subtracting the amount of NaOH needed to neutralize the picric acid I found the amount of excess NaOH needed was approximately proportional to the amount of lead nitrate used in the last two syntheses(basic lead picrate and clathrate syntheses). My lead nitrate looks dry but it still must have a lot of excess acidity.:(

Well I think I have got most of my problems figured out. Sure as anything that was the main reason I was having all that trouble a year ago as well when trying to make basic lead picrate. I assume you make your own lead nitrate. I am about to make another bunch. Any words of wisdom? I guess I could do what I have been doing and then recrystallize it, or maybe just let it dry for an extended period of time.

Whatever I do, I don' t want the lead nitrate to get hydrolyzed very much.

[Edited on 18-8-2011 by Hennig Brand]

Rosco Bodine - 18-8-2011 at 15:15

Keep in mind it is possible to form a dibasic or a tribasic lead compound in the same reaction mixture, so you must be precise with your base referenced to the picric acid.

The easiest and most direct way of making pure lead nitrate is using HNO3 somewhat diluted maybe half strength dilution, as it attacks lead more readily than does the concentrated acid if I recall correctly. Lead nitrate will precipitate from the cooling solution and is simply filtered out and dried with gentle heating. Toxic Oxides of Nitrogen are produced during the process of lead dissolving in the nitric acid, so this is not a reaction to be considered benign or done absent isolation and ventilation. Silver and mercury may similarly be dissolved by nitric acid. The lead salts preparation thread should have several alternative methods.

You will see a visual indication of hydrolysis of lead nitrate in a near saturated solution because the basic salt is less soluble and will cloud the solution or precipitate. A trace of cloudiness is then a good indicator of a lead nitrate solution that is nearly pure and neutral if it is strong solution.

[Edited on 18-8-2011 by Rosco Bodine]

Hennig Brand - 19-8-2011 at 15:15

Thanks for the help. Just drying some fresh lead nitrate. I used 15% HNO3 because it was available as pH down. With the lead cut up fine and a little heat, the process was actually quite quick (dissolved lead in ~15 minutes). I used gentle heating to get rid of ~3/4 of the water. I think I mentioned that I had a bit of PbCO3, well I sprinkled enough in to neutralize most of the remaining HNO3. I am now drying the yield on a very expensive and highly scientific drying apparatus (big piece of broken mirror).:)

I am going to try another small batch of basic lead picrate, and see if I have sorted out my lead nitrate problems. Then we tackle the clathrates.

Edit:
BTW, you mentioned something earlier that has kept me sort of interested. You mentioned that the basic lead picrate has half the nitrogen as the normal lead picrate, but still is more powerful. I have noticed that explosive salts with heavy metal cations tend to be much more powerful than explosive salts with lighter cations, but I don' t really know why. A sample of basic lead picrate has more of the heavy metal (lead) bonds, so I guess that could be the reason for the greater power (not sure exactly why that is though).

Here are a couple pictures I found on the net. If they are wrong let me know. The first one should be normal lead picrate, and the second basic lead picrate.


Normal Lead Picrate Structure.jpg - 42kB Basic Lead Picrate Structure.jpg - 67kB


[Edited on 20-8-2011 by Hennig Brand]

Rosco Bodine - 24-8-2011 at 07:54

Those structures appear to be correct. There would appear to be a relationship involving kinetic energy imparted to the "spectator ion" by the explososphere components that is analogous to the specific impulse parameter associated with rocket propellants. Evidently there is a kind of mass relationship matchup between the explososphere component and the spectator ion which is propelled by it and a good matchup results in an efficient coupling for transfer of energy and resultant velocity being imparted to the spectator ion so that it behaves as a "bullet" being imparted a higher velocity and kinetic energy. Some matchups between the explosophere and the spectator ion "bullet" are more efficient couples for the transfer of energy than are other mass related or structure related matchups. And the arrangement in that regard is evidently more important with regards to the net explosive effect than is a more general parameter such as "nitrogen content". Billiard balls scattering from impact
would seem to be a good analogy, where certain groupings arranged at specific angles transfer energy very efficiently but other groupings may dissipate the energy. Calculating and predicting all the parameters involved there is above my pay grade. Nine ball in the corner pocket :D

quicksilver - 24-8-2011 at 14:36

I have a poor memory for this but (if I AM correct) one of the contributors to clathrate research was an ordained Nun who had a remarkable background in Chemistry. I MAY have a PDF somewhere with some of her work on lattice materials. It was one of the few bits and pieces that went beyond the lead-oriented designs in the original patent. If I find it, I will post it.

Rosco Bodine - 24-8-2011 at 20:45

Quote: Originally posted by Hennig Brand  
Yeah, so it looks like I was probably wrong about my picric acid from ASA being the cause of my problems. I tried another clathrate synthesis with some very nice looking TNP from phenol, and guess what, I got basically the same result as the first time. Well I suppose I should be happy, because if it was the cause, it would have just indicated another/different problem (one with the TNP).

Here is a picture of the ~8g of picric acid from phenol that is left after a couple of experiments.
I put no effort or time into crystallization, as the TNP was to be used just as a reagent.

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/files.php?pid=219088&...

I think you are right about the pH issue now. I now have a NaOH solution of known concentration, and I am fairly confident I have good TNP.


Hmmm....I have an idea which may be the mystery solver here about the pH issue. Did you recrystallize the picric acid from boiling water, or is that 8 gram sample on the filter what was gotten from dilution of the nitration mixture?

I know picric acid gotten from dilution of the nitration mixture usually has occluded acid from the nitration mixture and it doesn't take much of the lower molecular weight acid as an impurity to substantially throw off the titration for what would be the usually required amount of base for neutralization of *pure* (recrystallized) picric acid. You were needing to add more base so obviously you have acidity that is somewhere as a hidden impurity, and I'm guessing it is in the picric acid if it wasn't recrystallized.

[Edited on 25-8-2011 by Rosco Bodine]

Hennig Brand - 1-9-2011 at 13:04

I appreciate you doing an analysis of my problem. That wording doesn' t actually reflect what I actually did, and that is my fault. I was a little unsure of how to say what had to be said right there. What I probably should have said was that no effort was made to form large, dense, gritty crystals from the water of recrystallization because the TNP was to be used as a reagent and not an explosive.

I actually did recrystallize once from boiling water, and prior to that the crystals taken directly from the diluted nitration mixture were rinsed well with small quantities of ice cold water. My recrystallized yield was close to 10g from 5g of phenol, which indicates a fairly strong/complete nitration, I think.

I think my TNP from ASA was recrystallized twice, back when I originally made it.

The wording on my part was either not right, or open to interpretation.

I still think it is my lead nitrate that may have occluded acidity, if that is possible. Lots of people on this forum make lead nitrate, so if this was the case one would think others must have had a similar problem at some point. I did notice the last time when making basic lead picrate, with the lead nitrate I recently made, that I needed a much smaller excess of hydroxide. I still needed an excess, but it was much less.


[Edited on 1-9-2011 by Hennig Brand]

AndersHoveland - 16-2-2012 at 12:42

The actual definition of a clathrate is a crystal lattice structure with completely enclosed cavities, such that guest molecules are incorporated inside.

The primary being described in this post is more likely just a coprecipitate, or possibly a double salt.

A double salt of this type would contain lead cations, picrate anions, and azide anions, crystallized into a regular crystal pattern.

Basic lead nitrate is the most common double salt. An aqueous solution of lead nitrate reacts with aqueous ammonia to precipitate this white basic salt, Pb2O(NO3)2.

Another double salt of lead that is known is lead oxalate nitrate.
Quote:

This salt is composed of one atom of nitrate of lead, one atom of oxalate of lead, and two atoms of water.


[Edited on 16-2-2012 by AndersHoveland]

Rosco Bodine - 16-2-2012 at 22:26

Quote: Originally posted by AndersHoveland  
The actual definition of a clathrate is a crystal lattice structure with completely enclosed cavities, such that guest molecules are incorporated inside.

The primary being described in this post is more likely just a coprecipitate, or possibly a double salt.


Your speculation is dubious. Three patents have issued specifically claiming these type compounds as complex inclusion salts. The properties of the material are consistent with that claim and the absence of atmospheric susceptibility to degradation of the included azide for the inclusion compound as contrasted with the still present atmospheric susceptibility of lead azide to decomposition when present as a coprecipitate provides good basis for confidence in the patents claim.

[Edited on 17-2-2012 by Rosco Bodine]

Attachment: US3293091 Complex Salts of Basic Lead Picrate Kenney 1.pdf (768kB)
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Attachment: US3262956 Basic Lead Double Salts of Picric Acid Kenney 2.pdf (235kB)
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Attachment: US3431156 Complex Crystalline Picrate Explosive Kenney 3.pdf (209kB)
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AndersHoveland - 18-2-2012 at 02:17

Yes, that does seem to me the most likely possibility.

The structure of a complex inclusion salt would be somewhere between a single semi-amorphous crystalline structure and a coprecipitate.

The lead azide might be imprisoned within the lead picrate, but clathrate would probably not be the appropriate term to use, as it implies an ordered single crystalline structure holding the contained molecules.

Rosco Bodine - 18-2-2012 at 02:40

There is a glittering reflectivity from crystal faces observable on the wet material in sunlight but that effect disappears with drying which transitions the appearance to a dull noncrystalline appearance....so it would seem there is a porosity to the material out to the surface and moisture held there is filling and leveling to the pores which is reflective, but on drying the cratered surface remaining is not reflective. It is a similar effect as a rain wet sidewalk can be shiny but on drying the irregular surface is not shiny at all.

Hennig Brand - 27-6-2012 at 14:51

I was browsing through the following text and came across a section that referenced the Kenney patents. I have made a pdf of that section (from p.49), as I thought it might be of interest to some.

"Chemical Analysis of Firearms, Ammunition, and Gunshot Residue"

by James Smyth Wallace

Attachment: Kenney Patents mentioned in Firearms Book.pdf (139kB)
This file has been downloaded 686 times



[Edited on 27-6-2012 by Hennig Brand]

Hennig Brand - 28-7-2013 at 16:31

Producing basic lead picrate reliably has been an issue for me. Today I experimented and came up with what I think are improvements when using the materials I have.

My lead nitrate is often very acidic. This acidity is mostly from residual nitric acid from production. This acidity can make accurately adjusting the pH of the reaction mixture very difficult. Since the basic lead picrate synthesis is a pH driven reaction this is a big problem. Today I carefully dissolved some of my acidic lead nitrate in water, forming a nearly saturated solution, then allowed the solution to slowly cool. The lead nitrate crystals were collected and given a small rinse with 95% ethanol to remove any acid remaining. Ethanol seemed like a good choice, for one because it was available but also lead nitrate is very insoluble in ethanol (0.04 g/100 mL @ 20 C). This seemed to work quite well.

Wash Lead Nitrate With Ethanol.JPG - 153kB

I was having a lot of problems getting the right amount of sodium hydroxide added to produce basic lead picrate. It always ended up being a lot of guess work, with often less than desirable results. I was never sure if my sodium hydroxide was not as potent as it should be because of moisture or carbonate contamination, etc or if my picric acid had a contaminant of some sort. Since it takes 2 equivalents of sodium hydroxide for the synthesis, one to neutralize the picric acid and another to form the basic lead picrate, what was needed was to determine the amount of sodium hydroxide needed to neutralize the picric acid then double it. It turns out that picric acid can be very easily titrated. I couldn't find my phenolphthalein because a lot of my stuff is in storage after moving out of an apartment at the end of the last school year. Anyway I used cabbage juice and it worked quite well. The test tube on the left was water with a little vinegar added, the middle one just water and the one on the right was water with a little baking soda. All test tubes had several drops of cabbage juice added. These were prepared just for comparison purposes.

Cabbage Juice Indicator.JPG - 107kB



First I accurately weighed out 0.1 g of picric acid and dissolved it in water. An amount of sodium hydroxide in excess of what would be needed for the titration and the synthesis to follow was measured out and dissolved in water. The 0.1 g of picric acid was titrated to a neutral end point which allowed determination of the volume of 1 molar equivalent of the sodium hydroxide solution for the basic lead picrate synthesis to follow. The first picture shows the 0.1 g of picric acid in water solution. The second picture is after the cabbage juice was added. The third picture is at the end point. It took about 40% more NaOH than what it should have.

0.1g Picric Acid in Solution.JPG - 107kB Cabbage Juice Added.JPG - 107kB End Point Neutral.JPG - 108kB


I didn't use heat because it was inconvenient, but I think I probably should have. I think I will try again tomorrow with heat (80 C or so as suggested in the patent from earlier in this thread). The product does seem to have the right color and properties associated with basic lead picrate however.

Product.JPG - 141kB




[Edited on 29-7-2013 by Hennig Brand]

Rosco Bodine - 28-7-2013 at 19:07

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=389&am...

Hennig Brand - 29-7-2013 at 02:28

So basic lead picrate has to be that exact color? I was under the impression that color could vary. I know I have read several places that lead styphnate can vary in color from sample to sample. That is about the same color as the stuff I made from the last page of this thread as well (the picture with the several samples together for comparison on the last page of this thread).

Other than using heat I don't know what else I could have done really. I was very careful to use very pure picric acid. Melting point indicated that it was around 97% pure and then I recrystallized it again from vinegar. The lead nitrate was very carefully recrystallized and then rinsed with ethanol to remove acidity. Addition was carried out under strong agitation drop by drop over the course of an hour. Reaction mixture was left stirring after last addition for 30-40 minutes.

Rosco Bodine - 29-7-2013 at 09:27

The few times that I have made basic lead picrate the rust color results, and a color shift to the lighter color occurs when that same rust colored product is converted by further addition to some double salt or clathrate. The initial reaction progress in forming the intended basic lead picrate may give a mustard yellow intermediate probably indicating a partial hydrate or complex salt of the basic and normal picrate which further develops to the basic lead picrate end product with sufficient heating and continued stirring for sufficient time. I have accurately reported the reaction conditions that I used and you are using different conditions and getting a different result and then reporting you are having issues. I don't know what variables are involved there other than it seems odd that you would be surprised at getting a different result at least in appearance. Color density can also be related to crystal size so running the reaction cooler will likely shift the color. I got good results running the reaction the way I wanted to run it, and you are getting something different doing the reaction the way you want to do it. I get this kind of thing all the time. People change minor aspects of a described process and something different results, and then there is an overreaching conclusion that the report of the synthesis as described by the original must somehow be in error. I got exactly what I said I got doing exactly what I described and the process was repeated and confirmed.

The modifications of temperature increase were done for a reason. It was not just for no purpose whatever that I chose to run the reaction at just under bp instead of the 80C as reported in the patent. Maybe if I had done the reaction at 80C then the product would have looked like mustard instead of rust, but I did not run the reaction at 80C, but hotter just below othe bp, and the rust colored product is what I got. Quicksilver and others have done the same thing and gotten the same product. So I have complete confidence the reaction works as described to produce the rust colored product as described. What is the algebra involved in the changed conditions or materials issues that are causing you to get a different result I do not know.

When the color is right it will be time to party :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqGgiaMknzM

[Edited on 29-7-2013 by Rosco Bodine]

Hennig Brand - 29-7-2013 at 16:36

OK, fair enough. I just went back to the last page of this thread and had a closer look at your process (which I had forgotten about). You use less than half the water than the patent method calls for and higher temperature too. Higher concentration means higher pH which should account in large part for the darker color (I think). Yes I guess I am finally going to have to give your method a try.

I have tried many different samples of picric acid, and learned to test its purity and refine the purification processes. I have learned to produce good quality lead nitrate low in hydroxide and oxides and acidity. Learned that titrating picric acid is very easy and many other things that I can't think of right now. All of this because of some pathological inability to follow instructions unless I completely understand why I am doing what I am doing.:D Well at least I learned a few things in the process.:)

If I have enough material here, and I think I do, I am going to try your method tomorrow. Man this feels more like some kind of analytical work than synthesis. Very precise stuff! :)

The truth is when you posted your method on the last page, back in 2011, I was so caught up in trying to rationalize what was going on that I paid very little attention to comparing your method to the patent method. I guess I assumed that basic lead picrate was basic lead picrate and either method should get me there. I guess there is basic lead picrate and then there is basic lead picrate.


[Edited on 30-7-2013 by Hennig Brand]

Rosco Bodine - 30-7-2013 at 00:01

You wanted to pick my brain a bit, which may be something like an archaeo-logical / psycho-logical / cave exploring dig........dig :D

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=501&am...

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=2827&a...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOE1-2Fza5Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBbzG7HdAz0

Hennig Brand - 1-8-2013 at 04:04

See anything you like?

Basic Lead Picrate.JPG - 168kB

[Edited on 1-8-2013 by Hennig Brand]

Basic Lead Picrate 2.JPG - 144kB

Rosco Bodine - 1-8-2013 at 07:34

Can't really tell for sure against the foil. A piece of white paper is best for seeing the color contrast.

Revisit your post about lead styphnate and the scenario for basic lead picrate is similar but the color is not as deep for the basic lead picrate which is still brown but not as dark and is a duller brown, having not as much red hue as styphnate.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=2827&a...

Hennig Brand - 1-8-2013 at 09:38

Same sample as above but on white paper this time. I just happened to have the sample on aluminum foil previously, but yeah it does make it much easier to compare colors on a white background.

Basic Lead Picrate on white paper.JPG - 93kB

[Edited on 1-8-2013 by Hennig Brand]

Rosco Bodine - 1-8-2013 at 16:40

That looks good. Who told you how to do that? :D

Hennig Brand - 1-8-2013 at 17:39

You know I cheated of course.:D
I was so sure that it was a pH issue, but it’s not it’s a water of crystallization issue. I don't have access to my corning stirrer hotplate because it is in storage somewhere, so I had to improvise with some junk I had lying around here. The improvised hotplate stirrer was made a few years ago for making TNP before I got a commercial stirrer. The water bath has a Pyrex bowl with a 200 W immersion heater. I was only able to keep the temperature up to 60-70 Celsius with this arrangement.

Improvised Stirring and Heating.JPG - 148kB

I have learned that in order to lose the water of crystallization the temperature had to be kept very near to 100 C, and even then it was slow removall. Well I used the method from the patent and of course like every other time that mustard yellow material was produced with much poorer performance than the rust colored material. This time however once dry it went in the oven, on aluminum foil, at 300 F. In less than a minute it darkened right up to the rust color. I left it in for 10 minutes or so, just in case more water would be removed. Performance was greatly improved. It now makes DDT in small amounts and is much more impact sensitive. Here is a picture of a sample made by the patent method before and after going in the oven. I guess I put them in reverse order for the picture, but you know which is which.

Before and After Oven.JPG - 103kB


This related journal abstract caught my eye. It is all about lead picrates and it looks like interesting reading. I am thinking of getting the university to bring it in so I can have a look at it.

Attachment: Synthesis and Properties of Lead Picrates (abstract).pdf (87kB)
This file has been downloaded 873 times


Notice the highlighted part. It is very likely that at 95-100 Celsius the reaction mixture is very near the minimum temperature needed to remove the water of crystallization from the basic lead picrate. The water comes off in seconds however in a 300 F oven.

I am going to do it your way too once I locate my hotplate stirrer, or think of a better way of heating the stirred reaction mixture in the short term.



[Edited on 2-8-2013 by Hennig Brand]

Rosco Bodine - 1-8-2013 at 18:26

That's interesting about the hydration. I did not know for sure that the basic picrate would even form a hydrate of lighter yellow color, though I may have speculated about that. I do know the normal picrate forms a bright yellow hydrate which upon dehydration by boiling hot xylene keeps the same color and crystalline appearance, visually you can't tell the hydrate from the anhydrous form for the normal picrate. But the basic picrate is another story huh where a color shift occurs on dehydration, if your experiments are reliable in showing that is what has occurred, it could be useful for something. The hydrate must be only quasi stable and not easily reversible both directions. The low solubility and non hygroscopic nature of the anhydrous form disinclines it to revert to the hydrated form.

[Edited on 2-8-2013 by Rosco Bodine]

Hennig Brand - 2-8-2013 at 05:11

I am glad that I understand this better now. It was maybe starting to become an unhealthy obsession. :D I now understand why temperature control, specifically keeping the reaction temperature as close to 100 Celsius as possible, is of primary importance.

As I was writing this something kind of scary happened. I was being very careful the first couple of times I have dehydrated the basic lead picrate to carefully preheat the oven before putting the sample in. This time however I didn't and I turned it to 350 F instead of 300 F. I had about a 2g sample in the oven. Anyway 3 or 4 minutes after placing the sample in the oven and setting the oven to preheat I am sitting 2 rooms away typing this post when I hear this huge bang and the sound of the oven door slamming open. Oh shit, that can't be good! Luckily on inspection there looks to be very little damage and thankfully I was the only one home. I opened a door at both ends of the house to air the place out. Here is a picture of what I saw when I went to see what had happened.


2 g basic lead picrate detonated in oven.JPG - 158kB


edit:

On closer inspection the oven is in fact damaged. All the walls of the oven have a big bow in them now to the point that the racks don't fit anymore. This will be difficult to explain to the lady of the house. I guess I can take the oven apart and bend them back; after all it is just enamel coated sheet steel.

The picture below shows the amount of bend in the bottom of the oven. The sample was placed approximately dead center of the oven.


Bent.JPG - 143kB



[Edited on 2-8-2013 by Hennig Brand]

Praxichys - 2-8-2013 at 05:54

Good thing it wasn't a toaster oven. It would have been obliterated! I suggest giving the interior of that oven a thorough cleaning because of its newly-increased lead content.

Forgive me for my intrusion but I would very much like to express how much I have enjoyed this thread so far.

[Edited on 2-8-2013 by Praxichys]

Hennig Brand - 2-8-2013 at 06:37

A good wash down is probably a really good idea. It seemed that most of the products of detonation blew out into the room right away. However, cleaning the oven is still a good idea. Glad you like the thread.

plante1999 - 2-8-2013 at 06:46

I guess it was a good lesson: Do not cook primary explosives in the house oven anymore.

Hennig Brand - 2-8-2013 at 07:40

Or at least make sure to preheat the oven first so as to avoid a temperature spike which is high enough to reach the ignition temperature of the sample. :P;)

Actually there may be no need of going quite that hot anyway. It was just an experiment. I suppose an oil bath would allow one to raise the temperature up over 100 C and would probably do the trick.


edit:

BTW, I just finished taking the panels off the oven and carefully bent back the sides of the oven interior walls. I also gave it a good wipe down inside with a vinegar-water mixture. Everything is more or less back to rights. Really the internal pressure generated wouldn't need to be that great to bend the sides since the sheet metal sides are quite large in area and thin. Not preheating the oven was foolish, but at least I was smart enough to only put 2 g in there and was able to return the oven to close its original condition.

[Edited on 2-8-2013 by Hennig Brand]

Hennig Brand - 6-8-2013 at 18:09

I recently experimented using lower temperatures to dehydrate (if that is what is happening) the mustard yellow basic lead picrate made by the patent method. I started testing at just over the boiling point of water and moved up at 10 degree Fahrenheit increments. It looks as though 300 F is actually at the bottom end of where the material seems to darken and actually a higher temperature of 350 F seems to do a better job of conversion. The change that takes place seems to be permanent, or at least the few samples I have, have stayed the same for the last few days. What I should have done is taken the weight of a sample before and after to see if the numbers supported the theory of dehydration. I will try and remember to take weights before and after the next time.

Rosco Bodine - 6-8-2013 at 19:38

FWIW what you are doing is a radical departure from the process I described and to do something like what you are doing is exploring an unknown that is risky. Having included azide and nitrate in the compound and proceeding with this bakeout scheme would be a bad idea IMO. Better to make the target compound in near boiling aqueous reaction mixture as described.

Hennig Brand - 7-8-2013 at 05:11

I wasn't thinking of adding azide and then cooking the compound in the oven. This was more of a way to satisfy my curiosity about what was happening with the basic lead picrate. It is agreed that this practice even with basic lead picrate alone is a bit risky, however when the sample size is kept small the risk can be within reason (in my opinion). Don't worry when I try for a clathrate I will go with your method.

When using your method keeping the temperature as close to boiling as possible, and of course giving the reaction the time it needs, seems to be the key. I was thinking of using a flask and putting a reflux condenser on it (section of glass tubing maybe for an air condenser) which would allow staying at the boiling point without losing as much water to evaporation and making it easier to keep the temperature maximized. What do you think?

A vessel that would allow increasing the pressure would allow raising the boiling point (pressure cooker). This is not needed I guess. Just thought I'd mention it.


[Edited on 7-8-2013 by Hennig Brand]

Rosco Bodine - 7-8-2013 at 15:20

Quote: Originally posted by Hennig Brand  
Don't worry when I try for a clathrate I will go with your method.

When using your method keeping the temperature as close to boiling as possible, and of course giving the reaction the time it needs, seems to be the key.
It isn't necessary to be "as close as possible" to bp, for example 99.9C depending on your barometer what it might be. It isn't that critical. I think I said 95-98C is fine.
Quote:

I was thinking of using a flask and putting a reflux condenser on it (section of glass tubing maybe for an air condenser) which would allow staying at the boiling point without losing as much water to evaporation and making it easier to keep the temperature maximized. What do you think?

It is an unnecessary complication. If you need to add some makeup water to offset evaporation, just add some.
Quote:

A vessel that would allow increasing the pressure would allow raising the boiling point (pressure cooker). This is not needed I guess. Just thought I'd mention it.

Right it is not needed. KISS principle.

Hennig Brand - 8-8-2013 at 04:08

Ok, I was just trying to have a little fun with this, but I can see that isn't appreciated. How is the following for an application of the KISS principle?

KISS.JPG - 131kB

I have used this arrangement many times in the last while for doing recrystallizations. It is simple and works very well. It is just a dessert bowl placed in the mouth of a beaker. Even without adding ice and/or cooling water to the bowl reflux is fairly close to complete in most cases (meaning loss of solvent is barely detectable). A thermometer can be inserted through the spout of the beaker; also additions can be made through the spout of the beaker.


[Edited on 8-8-2013 by Hennig Brand]

Hennig Brand - 12-8-2013 at 09:29

I think I should just let this one go, but anyway. I did another experiment. I kept the temperature at 95 C or greater the whole time. An indirect heating method was used as can be seen in the pictures. Copper from a piece of heavy gauge 3 inch copper pipe was cut lengthwise then hammered flat on an anvil. The copper sheet was placed on the homemade magnetic stirrer with half of its length hanging over. It was this overhanging section which was heated with flame. A small alcohol wick type homemade burner was used to maintain the temperature at 95 C or greater. Homemade ethanol was used for heating fuel. A propane torch was used to get the beaker up to near boiling temperature in a shorter time than would be possible with the alcohol burner alone. Copper not only has terrific electrical conductivity but also terrific thermal conductivity. Copper also has no noticeable effect on the stirrer’s ability to function properly.

Not to get off track but apparently nichrome wire can be placed right in an oil bath and that placed on top of a homemade stirrer. Obviously the vessel for the bath will need to be a material compatible with the stirrer.

I took Rosco's advice from a previous post in this thread and made a stock solution of sodium hydroxide and then titrated it against lead acid battery electrolyte. I did two titrations and found that my sodium hydroxide solution needed to be added in excess by about 25%.

I did a half scale reaction; 2.3 g picric acid, 3.75 g lead nitrate. The sodium hydroxide solution previously prepared and tested was used in 25% excess. Both the picric acid and lead nitrate were homemade and carefully purified. Lead nitrate solution was heated to 95 C and then addition was started. Addition was made a drop at a time over the course of about an hour. Temperature was maintained at over 95 C the entire time. After all the sodium picrate-sodium hydroxide solution was added the reaction mixture was left on heat for over 30 minutes with vigorous stirring. It was noted that during the 30 minute period the temperature rose to 98-99 C. It seems the product is still nowhere near as dark as it should be. It is however energetic and sensitive to percussion. It is not as energetic as the darker material which was given the heat treatment in the oven however.

Theoretical Yield = 4.54 g
Actual Yield = 3.92 g

Of course there was loses during filtering and I didn't let the reaction mixture cool much before filtering. Solubility is very low even at elevated temperatures so the loses from dissolved product should be minimal (I think).



Addition Complete.JPG - 153kB Side View.JPG - 151kB Product.JPG - 126kB


[Edited on 12-8-2013 by Hennig Brand]

Rosco Bodine - 12-8-2013 at 15:02

Please explain what you mean in molar notation or exact grams of NaOH your statement that the NaOH was used in 25% excess. For basic lead picrate the amount of theory required for the NaOH is 2X the molar amount of picric acid or twice the neutralization equivalent for the picric acid if it is pure. That provides an equimolar solution of sodium picrate and sodium hydroxide, which is added to a slight excess of an equimolar near boiling hot solution of lead nitrate. These proportions must be very close because otherwise different complex compounds are possible to form as a significant impurity and if the proportions are far enough off in deviation from theory an entirely different complex or multiple salt can result as the single product.

The sample you show looks a little darker than your earlier result but is still not the rust color expected. It doesn't look way far off but still not quite there so it would be my guess it is a mixed result. I'll probably be doing this synthesis again but when that will be possible I do not know.

Yields should be higher so that alone indicates something is off, and if it was hydrate impurity it would be expected that the yield would be in excess of the theoretical, not less.

[Edited on 13-8-2013 by Rosco Bodine]

Hennig Brand - 12-8-2013 at 16:23

Yes, the synthesis requires two molar equivalents of NaOH. The same amount of NaOH needed to neutralize 1 mole of sulfuric acid is what is needed to run a synthesis with 1 mole of picric acid. I made up a 4% solution of NaOH by weighing the sodium hydroxide prills, placing them in a graduated cylinder, and then adding water to the appropriate volume. It took about 25% more NaOH solution than it should have (by weight of NaOH prills) to neutralize the sulfuric acid, therefore it was concluded that 25% more NaOH solution should be used for the basic lead picrate syntheses.....Oh, now that I am looking back at my scratch notes I can see that I didn’t actually prepare a 4% solution I prepared something more dilute. I assumed I had made a 4% solution because that is what is stated in the patent. So the excess thing is inaccurate but the amount of NaOH solution used in the synthesis was based off of what was needed to neutralize the sulfuric acid battery electrolyte so it should still be correct.

The truth is I have tested several different NaOH proportions over the last while, from 10% excess all the way up to 40% excess. I guess it is possible that the temperature requirement was not dialed in at the same time though.

Very rare to get a 100% yield in any synthesis. I am not a professional chemist, but I would say almost never. The molecular weight of water is ~ 18. The molecular weight of basic lead picrate is ~452.3. If basic lead picrate forms a monohydrate it would be less than 4% heavier than the dehydrated form. Four percent is small but it is significant I guess.

[Edited on 13-8-2013 by Hennig Brand]

Rosco Bodine - 12-8-2013 at 21:37

Quantitative yields are nothing special when the reaction mechanism cooperates. Process is important here and the physical manipulation especially important is the agitation that is almost a wet milling of a suspension of solids kept vortexed in suspension in near boiling aqueous medium. It is a low solubility reactant that must be kept from stubborn duning which is difficult because the crystals are dense and settle quickly unless the vortex and agitation is sufficiently vigorous, so that there is contact with the hot liquid for every crystal in suspension kept aloft in the vortex like a herd of cows picked up into the sky by an F4 tornado. When you can do that, then the product should gradually change in color right before your eyes to a rust colored glittering crystalline material like the fine quartz sand that is on a beach in the surf line. It should look almost like normal lead styphnate but not quite as dark red brown. Quicksilver posted this picture which is a good illustration of the color.

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/files.php?pid=183983&...

Something is still off about your process and the yield tells that much but don't despair. Something was also off about the German chemist who invented the material because he actually incorrectly stated the formula in the original patent, filed in England and also in the U.S. and never amended with any error correction so far as I know. Of course maybe you already did the math yourself on the stoichiometry to discover and/or confirm this. What should I know about errors in the literature including those by German Ph.D chemist inventors of some renown :D It may have been a tongue in cheek bit of humor by the old professor to see who is sleeping in class. Regardless of all that impairment of cognition from which it has been suggested by some I suffer, Dr. Friedrich is never the less still incorrect about the formula for basic lead picrate which he invented and then identified by formula incorrectly in his original patent. So let's put that somewhat perceptive but errant Ph.D. of chemistry or philosophy or whatever field of cluelessness about stoichiometry in school right now to set the record straight. We wouldn't wish to be led down the primrose path about molecular formula arithmetic where things just don't add up as advertised. So on with checking facts to tell the rest of the story. Kenney later got it right in his patents but we should double check that to be thorough. Let me have a little fun with this. The mystery remains which experiments I have suggested may answer. I just love the task of calibrating the scales of a Ph.D. so that a hundred milliliters of distilled H2O actually weighs a hundred grams. After that we can really get down to business. Next we check the thermometers and see if melting ice is at 0C and boiling H2O at 1 atmosphere is at 100C. Then we are golden, all calibrated and ready for serious business. BTW I think Rathsburg also got it right in other patents. Rathsburg was a contemporary and coworker of Friedrich. In fact Hans and Walter (Ph.D's both) jointly hold a patent concerning ....wait for it....basic lead complex salts of.....drum roll .......azotetrazole. Ah ha! The plot thickens :D

Please reference the Friedrich patent does not correctly identify the formula for basic lead picrate which as a simplest expression should be C6H2(NO2)3OPbOH mol. wt. 452.3 or in the alternative the double salt expression Pb[C6H2(NO2)3O]2 - Pb(OH)2 mol. wt. 904.6 or the further simplified double salt expression Pb(C6H2N6O7)2 - Pb(OH)2 mol. wt. 904.6 This last double salt expression is used by Kenney which indicates he understands correctly what is the formula for the basic lead picrate.

Your own figures indicate you already also get it about the error of Friedrich so you are probably smarter than most who read the Friedrich patent and have done your homework following up with Kenney and others. Reduction of your homework to practice is another matter. A couple of years ago you posted diagrams showing structure for the normal picrate (anhydrous, normally a monohydrate) and the basic picrate (normally anhydrous) which are correct.

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=501&am...

So you are past the incorrect identification of the formula by the inventor Friedrich which may have been simply an overlooked typo in 2 patents. The significant thing is that if an error involving the formula can be published by the inventor in 2 patents with no correction page in the nearly hundred years subsequent to that publication, you, we are already ahead of the curve just recognizing that error and working around it. It also illustrates Murphy's Law can apply whether we are looking at patents or attempting to reproduce the described reaction with whatever modifications or tweaks will make it work better or will make it work at all. Not always but sometimes the patent is not precisely correct but is only a general starting point as a not quite specific but generalized description of the art. So a patent may be dead on about the details or it may be a bit cryptic on the details where it is necessary for "those skilled in the art" to read between the lines.

Now back to the Hans and Walter fun with intriguing experiments show. Read GB195344 and GB185555 for background page 2 example 3. [ Please Note: There is also likely a formula error IMO in the Rathsburg - Friedrich patent GB195344 for compound 1, as there should be a 2 outside the (PbOH) so it reads correctly (PbOH)2 ] See those 2 hydrogens on azotetrazole and reference compound 1 and 2 of the GB195344 patent. If compound 2 corresponds with basic lead picrate (and it does), then with what would compound 1 correspond ? The normal lead picrate. Or perhaps a normal lead styphnate. In either case the double salt of the normal with the basic salt might be anhydrous. It might not. But it could be. And there could be synergy exhibited by the double salt if it exists. It is also possible that other metal normal salts might substitute and might have an anhydrous double salt result which exhibits synergy. Some of those metal salts might be oxidizers, or they might be tetrazoles, and there is a good possibility that such "designer compounds" could follow the scheme generally as described by Kenney.

I should elaborate upon the significance of the Rathsburg - Friedrich patent GB195344 where compound 2 is analogous to basic lead picrate but is more specifically analogous to basic lead styphnate because the azotetrazole like styphnic acid is a dibasic acid, whereas picric acid is a monobasic acid although the behavior of the basic lead salts is what is the greater influence for defining the scheme of these complex salt formations. For example a whole series of double salts are identified for lead nitrate basic salts where the anions are specific defined ratios of nitrate and hydroxyl. A similar scheme evidently follows for the case where the anion may be a divalent value. The ratios may then differ but the general scheme holds true that these complex salts can form.

The most specific styphnate analogue for compound 1 of GB195344 would be a double salt of normal lead styphnate with basic lead styphnate. It is intriguing what may be the effect if such a compound were made and then while stirred in near boiling hot water picric acid just sufficient to neutralize 1 of the 2 hydroxide values, (or in the alternative sufficent to neutralize both both) was added. Suppose 1 hydroxide was neutralized with 1 monobasic acid, and the other hydroxide was neutralized with a different monobasic acid as another variation. [ See note above regarding formula error for compound 1 ] Would the picric acid completely disrupt the styphnate double salt or simply combine and form an entirely new compound which is a double salt of normal lead styphnate with a lead hemi-styphnate / hemi-picrate? Analogously what would be the effect of using other monobasic titrant acids such as hydrazoic, or nitric, or perchloric? Similarly would basic lead picrate form a double salt with normal lead picrate and would that possible double salt be anhydrous? If existent would the energetic properties exceed that of either the normal picrate or the basic picrate alone? What would result from similar application of the same titrant acids? Would a neutral complex double hemi-salt(s) result as a "substituted" basic double salt, or would the compound be disrupted by the attempted titrations seeking to incorporate another energetic or oxidizer anion? And of course even if the basic lead value must remain intact absent any titration to serve as the "backbone" for the sequencing of additional neutral lead salts, either energetic or oxidizing, such a scheme would follow the outline identified by Kenney which is already proven as a scheme for multiple salts and clathrates particularly where the basic salt serves as the cage or scaffold for the additional components included as normal lead salts. There is a definite interaction and overlap for the work of Friedrich and Rathsburg and Kenney, but the literature is incomplete for not investigating the aforementioned possibilities, IMO. It is possible that such investigations were made but produced negative results and were unreported, and it is possible that the experimenters simply did not go there with their investigations. Experiments are done to solve for the unknowns and there are some I have identified here.

This suggests an assortment of possible compositions of complex salts, multiple salts, and clathrates. Synergy would be the thing to be hoped to be found with some of those combinations.

The really intriguing aspect about this is that azides, tetrazoles, nitrates, styphnates, picrates, chlorates, perchlorates, ect. can all in some specific combinations possibly form definite crystalline molecular compositions put together like lego blocks at the molecular level of intimate incorporation in a multiple salt having interesting energetic properties.

I'll take a wild guess here that the Chinese are probably busily experimenting to check my allegedly inane chemistry related speculations.

Attachment: GB185555 Tetrazole Initiator Compounds.pdf (286kB)
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Attachment: GB195344 Tetrazole Priming Compounds.pdf (206kB)
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Attachment: GB192830 Basic Lead Picrate.pdf (250kB)
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It's deja vu all over again. Must be a method to my ScienceMadness, coming full circle on the hydrazine, azides, tetrazoles, clathrates...connecting the dots from ten years ago. What makes a 10 earth year orbit, something beyond Mars in the vicinity of Jupiter? Maybe a monolith? It's full of stars! :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnjiGx-6pII

Doctor Who?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNrs2iDsccw

Don't Cross The River
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=merf6oe6oWY

[Edited on 14-8-2013 by Rosco Bodine]

Hennig Brand - 13-8-2013 at 14:35

You have made a real study of this! Thanks for sharing. You give me too much credit though. After you confirmed that the diagrams I posted were correct back on page 2 of this thread I simply added up the atomic weights of the constituent elements. I also saw a post by Quicksilver a while back and he had used the same molecular weight for basic lead picrate, so that was confirmation again. Thanks for the compliment though. Anything I lack in intelligence I make up for doubly in stubbornness. :D

I checked to make sure my scales and thermometer were working correctly first. The thermometer was off by 2 C or so at boiling water temperature, which is expected of a cheap thermometer. I very carefully weighed out 6 g of NaOH prills into a graduated cylinder and added water up to 150 mL. I titrated this very carefully against my battery electrolyte, which judging by the specific gravity given for 60 F on the side of the container should be about 35.2 wt% sulfuric acid. I weighed out a gram of this acid very carefully with scales accurate to hundredths of a gram. The gram of acid was diluted with distilled water and titrated against the NaOH solution previously prepared. I found I needed to add almost exactly 22% more than would have been needed if the NaOH prills were completely pure and dry. I am now quite sure that the amount of NaOH I am using is very accurate.

I ran another experiment and got a much better yield (4.21 g), but the color is still quite light. My lead nitrate was made from lead flashing and hydroponics grade nitric acid so that should be fine. The purity of my picric acid is probably to blame. I had the temperature and the quantities of reactants carefully dialed in this time. I made the additions over the course of an hour and the temperature was always hovering around 98 C. Temperature was maintained at 98-99 C for 30 minutes after the last addition. It most likely is a materials issue. Too much DNP or something else maybe.

Thanks for all your help.


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[Edited on 14-8-2013 by Hennig Brand]

Bot0nist - 13-8-2013 at 17:15

I have nothing to add other than I have really enjoyed and learned from this thread, and am very happy to see serious discussion and experimentation in the energetics. Basic lead pirate, and a greater understanding of it, have been gained, by me, from this sticky.

Rosco Bodine - 13-8-2013 at 17:50

Earlier I think I stated the specific gravity wrong for standard battery electrolyte which should be 1.260 = 35.00% H2SO4
441 grams H2SO4 / liter
4.496 moles / liter
222.4 ml = 1 mole H2SO4

That yield is 92.5% so it is high enough to be a probable. You want over 90% and 96-98 is much better. Could you turn on a reading lamp or use a flash so the color contrast is clearer for your photos. It looks like the density is low for some reason by the clumping. This stuff should be like fine sand very gritty and shouldn't stick together caking in slabs, but should be free running pourable like hourglass sand.
In bright light you should see the suspension flashing reflectively from the tiny crystal faces like glitter, and the wet material on the filter will sparkle in sunlight, dulling on drying.
The product should absolutely not be at all hygroscopic and should be virtually clump free, just pour it from the filter paper when dry, nothing caking or lumping to scrape or break apart.

When I have the batch size going that I described back on page 2 I think it was, the vortex raises the liquid close to the top of the beaker so there is literally a cone of air almost down to causing cavitation of the stirbar that may be running 2500 rpm or more. If that photo is showing the stirrer running then you haven't got nearly the agitation that is needed for this process to run. That could be the issue because I have a note in my old lab notebook that the stirring vigor and temperature are both critical, and that the color shift from the yellow to the rust orange is a visible transition. It looks like you may be picking your fruit there before it has ripened. Try heating and stirring the shit out it until it is convinced to cooperate turning from yeller to orange.

[Edited on 14-8-2013 by Rosco Bodine]

Hennig Brand - 14-8-2013 at 01:55

After I gravity filter the product I always press/blot the product in folded over filter paper between two pieces of paper towel. This gets most of the water out of the product, but also presses it into a cake. I then fill a bowl with boiling water from a kettle, put an upward facing plate over the top of the bowl, and place the sample with filter paper on top to dry. The sample is completely dry by this method in less than an hour. The product breaks into fine particles when dry just by folding over the filter paper and putting slight pressure on the clumps or by gentle pressure from a plastic spoon. The density does seem a little low though. A little bit fluffy really.

The stirring for most of the synthesis was on the verge of a vortex, but not quite there. I know this because at different times during the synthesis I turned the speed up ever so slightly and a vortex formed. I will try and keep a vortex next time though.

Here is a picture of the product taken with the flash on.

DSC_0652.JPG - 137kB

[Edited on 14-8-2013 by Hennig Brand]

Rosco Bodine - 14-8-2013 at 13:47

Historical context is important to understand to follow the development of the art from Friederich and Rathsburg which is further illuminated by Kenney who gives the same line of research a better understanding, but the scope of all the examples is recognized not to be a full disclosure of all similar possible compounds. In the original post beginning the thread I mentioned the Friederich patent GB180605 which seems to be an early patent literature description
of the notice being taken of multiple basic salt formation for the lead compounds. I think there are probably earlier mentions possibly by Von Herz or others so who is actually credited for the earliest discovery I am not certain.

A much later patent GB986631 revisits the basic lead azotetrazole which is compound 2 of the earlier Friederich - Rathsburg patent GB195344 showing how modifications of temperature and precursors can greatly increase the density and quality of the product which proves that the process is important and suggests that is general for these type of complex salts, showing results will differ for small changes in conditions not just a small difference, but a nearly threefold bulk density increase for the product depending upon the reaction conditions, which is a drastic difference when the usefulness of an energetic material is precisely the application where the higher density is very important as a parameter of performance. It is not just important that the target energetic material be chemically correct but that its crystalline form be what is needed in order for the performance desired to be realized. This will hold true generally for all energetic materials. So getting the chemistry correct is often the easy part. It is not so straightforward to get the density and crystalline form optimized and that is where the nuances of process come into play which usually involve both the chemistry and the physical conditions under which that chemistry is done.
It is not unusual for there to be found a precise and narrow range of "target window" conditions which produce the desired result and resolutely defy any deviaton or alteration outside that window which will predictably cause a different result. That is just the nature of the beast.

Attachment: GB180605 Friederich early patent.pdf (290kB)
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Attachment: GB986631 Basic Lead Azotetrazole.pdf (180kB)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGrobzDz30A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfWPlu1ZZnA

[Edited on 14-8-2013 by Rosco Bodine]

Rosco Bodine - 18-8-2013 at 01:16

There are some more dots that I want to connect to show a nexus, a correlation with the work of Friederich, Rathsbirg, Kenney and others and this will again require reference to an example of a complex salt of lead involving a tetrazole. This example shows more specifically what I described as an idea above that involves further reaction of a basic salt of an energetic acid with a different energetic acid to possibly form a multiple complex salt that is neutral, or a double neutral salt. This is the logical progression and further development of the idea I proposed is suggested by the existence of compound 1 of the patent GB195344 which should as a corrected formula be C2N10Pb - C2N10(PbOH)2 compared with a similar salt desribed early in the tetrazole thread, which is a neutral salt following the structural scheme generally I have proposed is the inference. That neutral double salt identified later is essentially a basic lead salt of Diazoaminotetrazole which has been converted to a neutral complex salt with styphnic acid. The free hydroxyls of the 2 leads comprising the basic salt of Diazoaminotetrazole are neutralized by the styphnic acid to form the neutral complex salt. See attached page T-121 from PATR Vol.9 Q-T which shows the structure for the neutral complex salt gotten by neutralization of the basic salt, which does not disrupt the basic compound but adds to it as a condensation reaction via the elimination of H2O.

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=8144&a...

There is reason to expect this could be general, and similarly then there may be possible or even likely a similar compound which is the Azotetrazole analogue of Diazoaminotetrazole compound illustrated on page T-121.

IMO the literature by inference suggests the possible existence of a series of compounds which may be obtained by similar condensation reactions where a basic salt may be then converted into a neutral complex salt via a titration condensation reaction using a different acid from what has formed the original basic salt. It would seem probable that some of the different acids would work better for such a scheme than would others, or that some interactions of reacting salts might accomplish the same result if the solubility favored the formation of the desired compound.
I think the scheme is more or less general but not in an unqualified way. There likely are some cases where the condensation would probably occur as predicted or desired and other combinations where it may not work. How to predict that probaility is another matter entirely which would put this scheme in the realm of the experimental, to see if what is expected to occur does occur on a case by case basis where it is tested by experiment using varying reaction conditions.

Anyway, I hope this further explains what I was describing above as a point of interest about the complex salt scenario where either case may apply. The 2 things of note are [1] the formation of a complex salt between the basic salt and the normal salt, and [2] the potential for a condensation reaction to be possible for the free hydroxyls of the basic salt which does not necessarily disrupt the existing salt acid substrate, which may be incorporated into a newly formed neutral complex salt upon neutralization of the hydroxyls by an acid different from the acid used to form the original basic salt. It is possible that the precursor salt will not exchange one acid for the other as would be true and usual for a double decomposition, but instead a sharing of different anions may occur with the metallic or cation acting as the bridge linking together the two acids as a mixed neutral salt.
Factors that would effect the outcome are pH and solubilities so the concentrations and solvent and temperature would also be factors having bearing on what product results.

Attachment: Page T-121 from PATR Vol. 9 Q-T.pdf (93kB)
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[Edited on 18-8-2013 by Rosco Bodine]

Hennig Brand - 19-8-2013 at 07:25

I have been away for a few days on an apartment hunt, but before I left I did do another experiment. A huge vortex was maintained throughout the experiment. Temperature of the reaction mixture was held at 98 C throughout the experiment. Addition of the sodium picrate-sodium hydroxide solution was made drop by drop over the course of 45-60 minutes. Stirring and heating were maintained for a full hour after the last addition. Alas, the product is only slightly darker than the last time and explosive properties are very similar as well. The only times I have gotten the darker colored product, that detonates in small quantity when lit unconfined, was when I added a certain excess of sodium hydroxide.

I wonder if I have been oxidizing my ASA or an intermediate along the way when making picric acid. The results when using TNP from phenol were about the same though which doesn't support that theory.


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[Edited on 19-8-2013 by Hennig Brand]

Rosco Bodine - 19-8-2013 at 09:15

There is a definite color shift in the right direction. Is distilled water being used and the beaker size are only 2 potential issues remaining that I can think may be a factor. The density still looks low which could account for the lighter color development. I notice the smudge on the paper where the fines are clinging and the product seems dustier instead of being a crisp granular.

Also if the picture of the beaker is the stirring in progress, that color looks like the observed color shift in the mix from the bright yellow to the orange, but the depth of the mixture being stirred is way too shallow in the beaker. The waterline should be halfway up that airspace above the liquid in the picture you are showing. I don't have this in my notes but recalled that during the early addition the initial precipitate is a bright yellow material that is like a slurry of whiskers like tiny fibers of felt in the liquid, like disintegrated filter paper having a thixotropic effect which is transient. With continued stirring those tiny whiskers of a suspended felt of needles disintegrate and a new product appears which is much denser and drops to the bottom as it precipitates from the liquid phase which is darkening in color and in which the lighter colored fibrous material is more easily suspended. The lighter colored whiskers are easily stirred in suspension, but the more compact and dense material accumulates on the bottom and is quite difficult to keep mixed and suspended which is the reason for the deep vortexing. The density increases for the darker granular material which is distinctly crystalline and sparkles in bright light and the density is like sand instead of like the felt material that first appeared. The darker colored material will settle out in dunes on the bottom adjacent the stirbar even during the deep vortexing because it is that dense. And towards the end of the reaction if you switch the stirrer off it will all settle completely in a couple of seconds immediately when the stirrer is switched off, almost like metal filings separating from water. The material is so dense it almost defies stirring.

In a shallow whirlpool in a large beaker relative to the volume of the mixture, you definitely won't get the needed agitation, because the material will dune on the bottom of the beaker outside the spinning tips of the stirbar. It absolutely must be kept in suspension in a deep and violent vortex of the hot liquid for the crystal development of the dense material, and that is where the deepening color should be observed.

When I run this reaction the stirbar is run up to a speed where it is destabilizing and gyroscopic precession causes the stirbar to orbit the drive axis so it sweeps the accumulating dunes from the perimeter of the beaker bottom. It would be like a tornado in a large parking lot making the rounds so as not to miss any of the cars parked around the outside spaces ....no stone left unturned, over and over again :D That is the kind of churning up of the dunes of material that is needed to max out the bulk density and color development that will attend that bulk density increase. Otherwise I think you have gotten what you got and I don't know what else to tell you.

[Edited on 20-8-2013 by Rosco Bodine]

Hennig Brand - 21-8-2013 at 05:00

I put the sample of basic lead picrate from the last post on a microscope slide and had a look at it. My microscope is not equipped with a camera but was able to get a couple of half decent shots anyway by holding my digital camera up to the eye piece. It is very crystalline material indeed, but the crystals haven't grown as large as they should have I guess. Microscope was at 100X magnification for the pictures, but 40X showed the crystals well also.

BTW, I picked up that microscope a few years ago at a scrap yard for $30. They had just cleaned out a prison and the microscope came out of the prison medical lab/office along with other equipment. I also got a small rotary vacuum pump and a fairly large centrifuge for 60-70 dollars. Really good deals!

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[Edited on 21-8-2013 by Hennig Brand]

Rosco Bodine - 21-8-2013 at 06:01

Yeah it's a density issue that is making the color appear lighter yellow. You can see the deeper color in part of the sample in the last picture, the crystals on the right side of the field are showing the color depth that will be there for the whole sample when the crystallizing process completes for an evenly denser sample. There is a food dye called bakers egg shade that is a yellow food coloring, but the concentrated dye looks rust colored also, it is the same density and color depth effect. Potassium Ferricyanide really shows the same effect dramatically as the crystals are actually rust red, but if you grind them to a powder they are bright yellow. Exact same chemical composition, but a color shift occurs simply from the way light reflects based upon the degree of subdivision for the particles, smaller the mesh for the crystals the lighter the color. Amber resin does the same thing. Dye color printing inks for yellow show the effect too, the concentrate looks red orange, but diluted it is yellow.

[Edited on 21-8-2013 by Rosco Bodine]

Hennig Brand - 21-8-2013 at 06:32

Didn't notice that you got a post in Rosco until after I wrote what is below. Thank you for the explanation. I feel a little better about this now. BTW, I forgot to answer you about whether or not distilled water was being used. Distilled water has been used for the syntheses.

Ok, so I decided to carefully measure the melting point of the picric acid I have been using for the last few basic lead picrate syntheses using my improvised apparatus. The picric acid was made from ASA 2 or 3 years ago. I am using a thermocouple probe multi-meter combo for measuring temperature which is not the most accurate way of measuring temperature. The probe-meter combo was tested at 20 C and gave a reading of 19 C, it was also tested at 100 C and gave a reading of 98 C. I decided adding 2 C to the melting point obtained with the probe and meter would be fairly close (most likely off by less than 0.5 C).

Heating was accomplished with a low flame on a propane torch. I quickly heated to about 110 C and then turned the flame way down and heated intermittently, bringing the temperature up to the melting point over the course of about 10 minutes. Accurate control was fairly easy because of the large thermal mass I was using (aluminum block). The melting point obtained from the probe and meter was 120 C, and by adding 2 C brought the final result to 122 C. This melting point indicates that the sample of TNP is almost completely pure. According to the equation I obtained using the data found in a 1940s journal for melting points of DNP-TNP mixtures, ("Problem Detonating Picric Acid" thread), the purity should be 100%. The equation I obtained actually gives 100.77% for a temperature of 122.5 C so there was an inaccuracy or problem fitting the data. I may go back and investigate in the next little while. At any rate the picric acid I have is most likely at least 99% pure.


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edit:

Ok, that 1940's journal stated that good quality commercial picric acid was used, but that it wasn't perfectly pure (nothing is completely pure, but it was not reagent grade pure either). The Excel software found the best fit through the data points and I believe most of the error came from the fact that the sample of picric acid used for the testing was not 100% pure. There would have been a small amount of error in the testing methods as well. The errors from testing are most likely very small however as an R squared value of 0.9986 was obtained when the data points were fit to a quadratic equation.



[Edited on 21-8-2013 by Hennig Brand]

Hennig Brand - 21-8-2013 at 15:33

According to a Sigma Aldrich MSDS picric acid with a melting point of 121 C indicates >98% purity. According to a fisher scientific MSDS pure picric acid melts at 121.8 C. There are slightly different values floating around, however I trust these sources the most and as an added bonus the numbers go well with the data I already have from the 1940s journal.

Using the data from the 1940's journal again, but this time multiplying all picric acid concentrations by 98% (0.98) in the melting point table should produce a more accurate result. The 1940s journal had pure picric acid melting at 121 C and this same material was used to make the lower concentrations used for the melting point tests as well. We must assume that the DNP used to form the mixtures was reasonably pure. Excel was used to plot the data again and a new equation was obtained and is presented below. The R squared value was of course once again 0.9986. A pdf of the new Excel graph complete with quadratic equation and R squared value is attached.


y = 0.009 x^2 - 0.8256 x + 66.656

Where:

y = concentration of picric acid
x = melting point of sample

The 122 C melting point from the test in the last post now indicates 99.9% purity with the new equation. I really should put a glass slide over the top of the recession in the melting point apparatus where the sample sits during testing. Even if the measured temperature was high by 1 C (which I don’t think it was) a 121 C temperature still corresponds to over 98% picric acid.

This equation is still undoubtedly in error to a small degree, but it is much better than it was before. It should provide a good approximation of picric acid purity if an accurate temperature is obtained first from a melting point determination.

Attachment: Melting Point Graph & Equation for Picric Acid-DNP Mixtures (Revised).pdf (167kB)
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[Edited on 22-8-2013 by Hennig Brand]

Hennig Brand - 22-8-2013 at 10:25

Last post I promise until someone else posts, but I thought this deserved its own post since it is back on the main topic and has relevance.

I think I know what I have been doing wrong. I really don't know a great deal about growing crystals. I found a decent webpage however explaining how quality crystals are grown. Here is a copy/paste of a section from the page. I made a pdf of the entire webpage as well and have attached it below.

"Nucleation

Crystallization is preceded by nucleation, which happens either spontaneously or is induced by vibration or particles. If nucleation sets in too quickly, too many too small crystals will grow. The figure below shows an equilibrium diagram of a crystallization from a solution. For a diffraction experiment you need no more than one good single crystal. The best way of growing a few nice crystals, when opposed to a lot of bad crystals, is to change the concentration slowly into the area of nucleation, without getting too deep into it. The formation of nuclei (not too many) and the starting crystallization will reduce the concentration and bring the solution back into the regime of oversaturation. That is where existing crystals grow, but no new nuclei form. You want to keep your system there. That means all changes of your system need to be slow."

So it seems I have been adding the sodium picrate-sodium hydroxide solution much too fast for the size of the reaction mixture, especially during the early stages of crystal growth. Lower concentrations (more water) could also help I think.


Attachment: Growing Crystals.pdf (144kB)
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[Edited on 22-8-2013 by Hennig Brand]