Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Chemical X

Chemical X

halogen - 9-12-2005 at 10:30

This chemical x has 7 highly strained rings, and is shaped like a triangular dipyramid. Here is the basic prep:
Obtain:
Hexachlorocyclopropane
Lithium nitride
Methyl nitrate

1. React HCCP and Lithium Nitride to form Lithium Chloride and a triangular dipyramid, with a cyclopropane ring and a nitrogen on the top and bottom. Extract the LiCl.
2. React this with methyl nitrate to form a tertiary amine (di)nitrate. This is the product.

C3(NCH3)2(NO3)2 is chemical x!
Chances are, the chemical wil decompose guickly and be severely sensitive. It may need to be kept cold... Does it even have a remote chance of working?

[Edited on 9-12-2005 by halogen]

12AX7 - 9-12-2005 at 14:35

Hum interesting... I'm guessing you're just dreaming this up?

Minor point: that's perchlorocyclopropane.

Ammonia might work better, since hydrogen ions are smaller than lithium, depends if the HCl causes trouble though. Hey, it would form the HCl salt directly, plus excess acid.

So the CH3NO3 protonates the nitrogen backside forming a changed ammonium-style group, in this case, with the fourth bond held by a methyl (ala, e.g., tetramethylammonium+)?

Could just form the plain salt with nitrate, OB would be closer (C3N2.2NO3 = 3CO2 + 2N2). Well, CO2 can be reduced, maybe blend it with a little (carbon or hydrogen-rich explosive of choice).

I don't see any direct reason this synth wouldn't work, unless of course the atoms simply don't want to cooperate. That could well be, I mean you've got all bonds pointing to one side and cyclopropane is bad enough as it is. Acetylene is about as much to one side as you can get, and its end bonds don't have much flex at all. For that reason, you might only be able to aminate to a tetrahedron (using R-R-R-trichlorocyclopropane, or however sides are named).

Tim

simply RED - 11-12-2005 at 03:32

C3Cl6 (if possible to exist) and Li3N will both have more than one
reaction center, this makes it difficult to predict the products from the reaction.

I have never seen a pyramid formed by carbon atoms. Only cubane and prismane structures.

[Edited on 11-12-2005 by simply RED]

halogen - 11-12-2005 at 07:59

"I have never seen a pyramid formed by carbon atoms. Only cubane and prismane structures."

Ah, but thats half the fun! White phosphorus has a tetrahedron shape and look - it's pyrophoric! Albeit P-P bonds are not as strong as C-C bonds, but still!

C3Cl6 undoubtedly exists. The problem is obtaining it. Cyclopropane is made by reducing some sort of organic bromide with zinc dust (why?), so it cannot be made directly. And unless I'm mistaken, chlorinating it would form chloropropanes by attacking the ring... Of course the ring strain of perchlorocyclopropane is supposedly not that bad.

12AX7 - 11-12-2005 at 16:13

I'd think you can do all the alkane chemistry you can with chlorine, just somewhat different nucleophilic behavior...(if I'm using the terminology right

)

Maybe dichloromethylene-ate a double bond? I saw that method in a romp on Google. -Ene structure becomes cyclopropane ring by addition. So perchloroethylene plus, ah, CCl2I2 maybe? With a mild reducing agent to absorb the I2, providing the methylene radicals.

Tim

PHILOU Zrealone - 13-12-2005 at 12:15

:cool:

P4 has the chance to have a non binding doublet on each top of the molecule what gives more elasticity and freedom to the other bonding.

Here your idea looks good on paper but more likely you will end up with a carbon polymer... maybe nitrogen dopped diamond?
cyclo(-CCl2-)3 + Li3N --> CxNy + LiCl + N2

Br-CH2-CH2-CH2-Br + Zn powder --> cyclo(-CH2-)3 + ZnBr2 + cyclohexane and higher polymers
2CH2I2 + 2Zn --> 2ZnI2 + CH2=CH2
Thus bromides and iodides are highly desired for this kind of reactions!

Based on this one might imagine the later processes:
I-CCl2-CCl2-CCl2-I + Zn --> Cyclo (-CCl2-) + ZnI2 + polymers

I-CCl2-CCl2-I + CI2Cl2 + 2Zn --> I-CCl2-CCl2-CCl2-I + ZnI2 + Zn
--> Cyclo (-CCl2-) + 2ZnI2 + polymers

3CI2Cl2 + 3Zn -???-> Cyclo (-CCl2-) + 3ZnI2 + polymers

(CH3)(NO3)N(C)3N(CH3)(NO3) is probably too stressed to exist.
No real steric effect would stabilise it during the process.

Now I would be more interested if I was you:
-in spirane compounds...
There you have a central carbon linked to 4 other carbon (like neopentane) but the 4 external carbon are bonded two by two...and so you get two cyclopropane rings on a single C core and wich triangle planes are 90° of each other...

-Same idea but with two triangles with a comon edge...
-Further the pyramidane quest ...not yet obtained..imagine a trinitropyramidane

halogen - 9-10-2006 at 13:03

Just a point: chemical x (which would be nearly impossible to prepare... look at tetrahedrane!) would be called what? methyl azabipyrimidammonium nitrate?

Sickman - 9-10-2006 at 21:10

Keep in mind that lithium nitride will react with any water present to form ammonia gas and lithium hydroxide.

In other words use an inert solvent for step one; if it works at all that is!

Magnesium nitride is preferable instead of lithium nitride for this synthesis IMO, because it's cheaper, but still will react the same way as lithium nitride.

We can speculate forever, but a simple experiment, would doubtless, get us further on this topic!

I know how to make the magnesium nitride and methyl nitrate myself, but were can I get the hexachlorocyclopropane?

By the way if step one and two worked as originally thought, the use of boric acid in combination with methyl nitrate may be neccessary for step three! Boric acid would act as a mediator in this final step IMO!

[Edited on 10-10-2006 by Sickman]

halogen - 10-10-2006 at 13:04

Quote:

Keep in mind that lithium nitride will react with any water present to form ammonia gas and lithium hydroxide.

I do agree that water is not a suitable solvent (HCCP is insoluble in it) but small amounts might not be that bad.
Li3N+3H2O --> 3LiOH + NH3
HCCP + NH3 --> 3HCl + ...
3LiOH + 3HCl --> 3LiCl + 3H2O

so either the tiniest amount could ruin the experiment OR catalyse it.
[EDIT]
To clarify, 12AX7 stated that NH3 would possibly work better than Li3N to introduce nitrogen.

Quote:

Magnesium nitride is preferable instead of lithium nitride for this synthesis IMO, because it's cheaper, but still will react the same way as lithium nitride.

Will it? Mg3N2? The molecule is of the wrong shape, size etc. and I think that, though it could possibly work, it would decrease greatly the already incredibly slim probability of the reaction producing the desired product. Furthermore, I was under the impression that Li3N higher energy/more reactive than Mg3N2 which is beneficial considering the incredible energy in this molecule.

Quote:

We can speculate forever, but a simple experiment, would doubtless, get us further on this topic!

I know how to make the magnesium nitride and methyl nitrate myself, but were can I get the hexachlorocyclopropane?

I do not have the means to try this. Be my guest, if you like, though. Also, I now doubt the ability of the reactions to produce chemical x. Look at tetrahedrane, C4H4, an aptly named hydrocarbon which because of the incredible amount of stress on it's bonds has never been isolated or to our knowledge created, despite very numerous attempts. This molecule would be a bit like two of these molecules stacked up and with extra bond angle strain related instability thrown in to taste

. It is possible that the reaction would stop at one Li3N per HCCP to form "just" a tetrahedron, but this too, is unlikely. Furthermore, these substances would be incredibly incredibly unstable, I wouldn't want to be around even small quanties.
But don't let this discourage you

I'm not sure about the HCCP, but it might be made from controlled reaction of certain mixtures of perchloropropane and a reducing metal like magnesium or sodium.

[Edited on 10-10-2006 by halogen]

12AX7 - 10-10-2006 at 16:50

How about trimethylsilane or tri(tBu)silane groups on all for corners? IIRC, the tertrahedrane group has been formed with such steric hinderance, but never free of course. Since we're dealing with a nitrogen substituent, it would have to be quaternary N+. Hmm, with such steric hinderance around the thing, it would be a very weak, large ion indeed!

Tim

Sickman - 10-10-2006 at 21:20

Yes, after thinking it through and looking at the structure of the proposed precursors I'd say it just won't work!

However now that ya got me thinking of nitrides I'm trying to find a route directly from a nitride to an azide.

Magnesium nitride can be made by burning pure magnesium in a nitrogen only atmosphere. It can also be made even more easily by burning magnesium in an ammonia atmosphere with hydrogen as a byproduct.

halogen - 11-10-2006 at 18:36

Part of the problem with attempts at tetrahedrane was instead of the necessary carbon-carbon bond forming, the carbon atoms would only make 2 bonds and shortly after, it would all just go back to cyclobutadiene (another very unstable substance). With this, the issue is tackled in that the bonds arent formed in the same way. Though... it is entirely concievable that the product of HCCP and Li3N would "simply" be a crosslinked polymer of some sort, with nitrogen atoms between C3 groups. Albeit a very reactive and concievably energetic polymer.

Quote:

Hmm, with such steric hinderance around the thing, it would be a very weak, large ion indeed!

Quite. Though if it only made it as far as C3Cl3N, the salt would not be considerably more stable, and possibly a reasonable outcome. At any rate, any vaguely tetrahedral molecule to come out of this cocktail would have a rather low yield if not 0% at all...

Quote:

IIRC, the tertrahedrane group has been formed with such steric hinderance, but never free of course.

Precisely. The corset effect, right? If that were so, then POSSIBLY having NO2 groups tacked on to the three carbons in the ring in stead of chlorine or a nitrogen would actually increase both the stability and power of such a substance:
C3(NO2)3NCH3(NO3) ???
Which doesn't quite sound right...

Sickman - how reactive to water is Mg3N2, exactly?

PS. If a mod would be so kind as to change this threads name to something more fitting to reflect the tetrahedral nature of this speculation and not limit it to 1 chem. Thanks.

Sickman - 11-10-2006 at 20:53

Halogen,

Quote:

Sickman - how reactive to water is Mg3N2, exactly?

Well that depends on what your comparing it to. The nitrides behave very much like the carbides do. For example calcium carbide is very reactive with water while tungsten carbide is inert.

The rule I see here is that all ionic nitrides such as lithium and magnesium are very water reactive. They deprotonate hydrogen in water and are very strong Bronsted bases.
On the other hand other nitrides such as titanium and aluminum are practically inert.

If you were to drop a few grams of magnesium nitride into some warm water the reaction would be obvious, it wouldn't just sit there!

Swany - 11-10-2006 at 21:01

I found that out the interesting way, attempting to seperate it from the oxide I noticed it was bubbling and took a smell without thinking. *Wheeze* ammonia....

halogen - 13-10-2006 at 11:53

I meant in comparison to other nitrides.
Also, Li3N is pyrophoric.

[EDIT]
Just realised: Most of the topics just discussed were covered previously by PH Z! Watch out. Sometimes one tends to overlook things in a medium crammed full of very useful information.

Polymer as outcome (check)
HCCP production (check etc.)

[Edited on 13-10-2006 by halogen]