Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Lab safety

Lab safety

trinitrotoluene - 13-2-2003 at 21:29

Let me tell you how importent it is to be safe.And wear your goggles. Safety number one! A moment ago I took 40 grams of Ca(OCl)2 and placed it into a coffee grinder. Grinded it to powder no problem. Then took 56 grams of NaBr and grinded it up with a coffee grinder, no problems. I decided to mix it so I placed both and put it into a coffee grinder and turned it on. My goal was better to get better Ca(OBr)2. So after i was grinding I I opened up the cap with my face near the grinder, and a huge plume of Br2 gas rised up, and engulfed my face. I wasn't wearing goggles. I was lucky I wasn't breathing in if I were, then R.I.P for me. Yes that was my first time not wearing goggles. After that my eyes really burn, it was watery. I washed my eyes for 10 minutes and it still burns. I inspected my eyes and its fuckin red. I still burns, I'm thinking about washing it with ammonia. But I'm not sure what to do now. But after that I put on my goggles scarped out the Ca(OBr)2 out of the coffee grinder it was still fuming out visiable amounts of Br2 gas. Put it in a jar and threw it into my backyard neighbors backyard I hate them! :mad:

But I hope you people learn from my mastakes and be safe.BTW I had discovered some properties and some thorys of properties of Ca(OBr2)2 ,and some thorys. I will post pretty soon about that in the hypobromate thread of whenever my eyes feel better.

vulture - 14-2-2003 at 09:27

DO NOT PUT AMMONIA IN YOUR EYES!

Are you insane? Ammonia wouldn't even help in the first place.
You could wash your eyes with sodiumbicarbonate solution.

In general, when having a lab accident do not try to neutralize the chemical! Something like drinking NaOH when having swallowed hydrochloric acid.
Your body is not a reactionvessel!

a_bab - 14-2-2003 at 17:15

I got a NASTY bromine burn few years ago; the problem is that bromine gets soaked in the skin, so you can't wash it. There is no way to get rid of it once it touches the skin. I tryed desperatly to wash it, rubbing the skin under water, but the skin peeled off. It was horrible !

Ammonia will do nothing. Never ever put chemicals in the eyes !
I'd say to see a doctor. It'll be ok after some days, I hope. The problem with these halogens is that they destroy the tissue, hence the caughing from bromine and the 3-4 hours sensation of pain in the throat.

trinitrotoluene - 14-2-2003 at 23:40

I just thought using ammonia was ok because in some book it says if you spill Br2 then use ammonia to neutralize it. But my eyes are ok now. Yes I admit my skin still smells like Br2.

PHILOU Zrealone - 25-2-2003 at 18:01

Ca(OCl)2 acts as active Cl2!
Cl2 can free Br2 from bromides!
Cl2 + 2NaBr --> Br2 + 2NaCl
Thus here
Ca(OCl)2 + 2NaBr --> Ca(OBr)2 + 2NaCl + heat
Ca(OBr2) + heat --> CaBr2 + O2 + Br2 + Ca(OBrO)2 + ...

Washing eyes with water is the best to do!
Never use a base (not even Na2CO3!Certainly not NH3 or NaOH) because it transform the cellular membrane into soap and all the contain goes out as a soup extract!
Base are more dangerous to eyes than acid!
Citric acid will make a strong irritation; but ammonia will cause irreversible blindness!
:mad:

PH Z

Cappy - 21-4-2003 at 19:19

Okay, it didn't make sense to me to use NaOH or HCl to neutralize acids and bases, but what about sodium bicarbonate disolved in water or white vinegar. Would these be any better or worse than water?

PHILOU Zrealone - 29-4-2003 at 04:45

No vinegar and no carbonate; Simply water; trying to neutralise will make things worst irritate further the eye even if dilluted acid/base!
:mad:

BromicAcid - 14-7-2003 at 08:20

I read in one of my old chemistry books that hydrogen sulfide, well diluted with air can help alleviate some of the pain in the eyes associated with an above average dose of halogens. Although I would rather tough it out then get near the H2S it is interesting.

blip - 15-7-2003 at 16:25

Maybe H2S doesn't just deaden smell.

I was thinking that the reaction was partly water catalyzed (from humidity), but likely Phil's correct instead:

NaBr + H2O < <strike>  </strike>> NaOH + HBr

Ca(OCl)2 + 4HBr __ > 2Br2 + CaCl2 + 2H2O

2NaOH + 2Br2 ___> 2NaOBr + Br2 (just to show that some is still released)

2NaOBr + CaCl2 ___> Ca(OBr)2 + 2NaCl

Basement Chemist - 25-7-2003 at 12:10

is air poisionous?

Organikum - 25-7-2003 at 12:26

only fresh air is poison.
cigarette smoke and smell of old socks catalyse the breakdown of the unhealthy compounds.......

Basement Chemist - 25-7-2003 at 12:30

o cause i inhaled some air today. i quickly stuck my mouth to the tail pipe and revved the car up to cleanse myself..,, so i think ill be ok.

lab safety

mick - 5-10-2003 at 06:10

Hello
Excellent site.
This is my first time at posting.
Concerning Chemical safety.
You do not have to re-invent the bomb, it has all been done before.
H2S, MSDS states (I think I have got the figures right, over 10,000 ppm death is certain), between 5000 and 7000 ppm death is almost invariable??? below these levels it stinks, then you stop smelling it, then you collapse and then you are dead.
Try pouring acid drain cleaner (good for plastic pipes) down some old cast iron pipes with the doors shut and inhale. Where I worked some one did this (twice!!!) and evacuated the 7 floor building. Luckily, I came into the building early the one time and opened the doors!!!
I saw a comment about using MnO2 in the thermite process, I would not inhale any of the Mn fumes, it might go better but check your medical history a few years later ( and any future children).
True story.
Female researcher at a university in America, wearing latex gloves, handling organomercury compounds, a FEW drops (less that 0.5ml) fell on the gloves. She was advised to go to hospital, she did not. She died from mercury poisoning. Tests showed that the chemical went through the gloves faster than they could detect it, less than 15sec.
I do not think that strong oxidising agents should be handled on a wooden surface because any spills will soak into the wood and be stabilised?? untill, 1 year later friction or a slight fire ignites the whole lot and it can not be put out by a fire extinguisher because it is burning from the inside out.
Be carefull of soda glass, it might be glass but when it goes the the room is full of sharp bits (eyes).
For storing chemicals if you can put a PTFE seal in the top it protects what ever the top is made of eg the thick (wide ) PTFE tape sold at plummers merchants.
If you can find the poly coated bottles they are the best (sitting in a PE or PP tray, just in case).
Last comment on storing chemicals, this a new theory.
Chemical can be stored for a long time under the right conditions. The first thing to fail usually is the top/seal. Before it becomes obvious that the top/seal has failed, the top/seal becomes a one way valve ie stuff can get out the bottle but not get in (heat pump, temperature changes from night to day, osmosis etc) check the atmosphere, if you can smell it it aint sealed.

BCF - 5-10-2003 at 23:58

As a lab safety officer, I agree completly with what has been said so far about chemical injuruies. Unless the substance is water-reactive, or hydrolyses dangerously, your best bet is to flush continuously with water for at least 15 minutes. Not only is attempting to neutralise the chemical often counter-productive, it also wastes valuable time, time during which the chemical will continue to burn / irritate. Leave the use of antidotes to the medical profession, and stick with the simple:
"The solution to pollution is dilution".

P.S.
RE: earlier posts, it may interest you to know that H2S is actually as toxic as HCN, and that one of the first symptons of poisoning is the loss of the sense of smell.

[Edited on 6-10-2003 by BCF]

gm137 - 29-4-2007 at 05:18

Both the "CRC handbook of Lab Safety" and the UK equivalent, "Hazards in the chemical lab" confirm that large amounts of water are the only recommended treatment for chemical contamination. Other substances can cause damage by further reaction, particularly as most neutralisations are exothermic. Even water-reactive chemicals can be dealt with in this way if the volume of water is large and the amount of chemical is small. I was once spashed with molten lithium during a transfer process in a university lab, and used a safety shower. The potential hazard of the water - lithium reaction was (literally) washed away by the huge excess of water.

phangue - 13-6-2007 at 13:26

whenever possible, don't store chemicals in glass containers, and always use have lung protection.

leu - 13-6-2007 at 22:11

Quote:

whenever possible, don't store chemicals in glass containers, and always use have lung protection.

Glass is the preferred material for containing many chemicals, it can be protected from breakage by encasing it in insulating foam inside of a metal can :cool:

The_Davster - 14-6-2007 at 05:28

The idea of using no glass comes from pyrotechnic circles, where you would not want to store compositions in glass because of the shrapnel hazard should they ever ignite.

But regular chemicals are usually stored and shipped in glass bottles. Aldrich/alfa/etc all ship chems that are unreactive with glass in small brown glass bottles. No safety risk.

grease fire

Magpie - 7-11-2008 at 21:18

My wife just brought to my attention a video on what to do and what not to do when encountering a grease fire. The video shows that throwing water on such a fire is a bigger disaster than I had ever imagined. The video is attached. Note the face of the poor woman who tried water.

This lesson from the kitchen seems equally applicable to the lab. Organikum often advised that the home chemist should keep a wet towel handy when heating flammable solvents. I have taken to doing that lately.

Here's the text that goes with the video:

Quote:

Kitchen Fire - Read first then watch

I never realized that a wet dishcloth can be a one-size-fits-all lid to cover a fire in a pan!

The Attachment is a dramatic video (30-second, very short) about how to deal with a common kitchen fire ...

oil in a frying pan. Read the following Introduction, then watch the show ... It's a real eye-opener!!

At the Fire Fighting Training school they would demonstrate this with a deep fat fryer set on the fire field.

An instructor would don a fire suit and using an 8 oz cup at the end of a 10 foot pole toss water onto the grease fire.

The results got the attention of the students. The water, being heavier than oil, sinks to the bottom where it instantly becomes superheated.

The explosive force of the steam blows the burning oil up and out. On the open field, it became a thirty foot high fireball that resembled a nuclear blast.

Inside the confines of a kitchen,................ the fire ball hits the ceiling and fills the entire room,
Also, do not throw sugar or flour on a grease fire. One cup of either creates the explosive force of two sticks of dynamite.

This is a powerful message----watch the video and don't forget what you see. Tell your whole family about this video. Or better yet, send this to them.

[Edited on 7-11-2008 by Magpie]

Attachment: grease fire demo.wmv (1.4MB)
This file has been downloaded 653 times

Formatik - 7-11-2008 at 22:46

It looks like what happened is the water immediately vaporized from the heat of the fire and pan and dispersed the flames and insoluble grease into the air.

But I wonder how many common everyday people know when cooking that these oils have a certain flash point and then when the flash point is reached... flammable danger lurks from a source of ignition.

Nice trick on using a wet cloth to cover the flames.

Magpie - 7-11-2008 at 23:15

Yes, there is some separate text that explained the mechanism of that fireball. I posted it as an edit in the above message with the video.

[Edited on 7-11-2008 by Magpie]

Jor - 8-11-2008 at 03:11

But then again, would dumping a few liters at once have the same effect. Then there would be not enough to evaporize the water, because the heat is disperses over the liters of water.

I think a dry power extinguisher (sodium bicarbonate?) is your best bet when extinguising such fires, or CO2 as well. I have a dry power extinguisher in my lab.

Magpie - 8-11-2008 at 09:13

I don't think I would dump any amount of water on a grease fire. How can you predict how the water and grease are going to disperse, possibly causing multiple fireballs?

My young bride dealt with a bacon grease fire using a dry powder extinguisher. It made a real mess in the oven but put the fire out quickly and she was not hurt.

I keep a dry powder extiguisher, and a large wool blanket handy in my lab. If I'm really concerned I also place a wet towel handy.

Fleaker - 8-11-2008 at 12:40

I think your best bet for a grease fire is to simply cover the pan with its lid!!

The wet towel idea is a good one though.

Jor - 8-11-2008 at 13:07

I keep a safety fire blanket in my lab as well!

You use wool Magpie?

stoichiometric_steve - 11-11-2008 at 10:08

to the thread starter:

It is not stupid NOT to use goggles, but it IS stupid to grind two highly reactive substances in dry form. Your accident is due to your lack of understanding of what you were about to do, not the lack of eye protection.

watson.fawkes - 11-11-2008 at 10:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Magpie
I don't think I would dump any amount of water on a grease fire.

My brother, when a teenager, tried to cool down some overheating cooking oil, not with cold water, but ice.

I don't think I've ever seen a larger kitchen fireball. There was a de facto moratorium on deep-fried food for a while.

Jor - 20-11-2008 at 12:53

wow:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/715797/chemistry_experiments_b...