Sciencemadness Discussion Board

What to do during an emergency

Blind Angel - 19-9-2005 at 21:18

What to do during an emergency?
I remember that there was a very nice post on The-Hive about what to do when somebody is doing an overdose (cocaine in this case). Has anybody have it saved somewhere? It'll be interesting to post this here (possibly turn it sticky too) since according to me it's common knowledge that MUST be know (shame on me to no remember). Fell free to post anything relevant too, like what do to with somebody in a psychosis state or any other dangerous situation where you need to wait for competent authority to come by.

Thx.

12AX7 - 19-9-2005 at 22:27

I remember from Pulp Fiction that the victim needs an adrenaline injection into the heart or something. :P

And...that about sums up my drug emergency knowledge :o *Watches thread for further information*

Tim

Relevance?

Ramiel - 20-9-2005 at 01:06

I don't really see that this has anything to do with chemistry. Let's see if I understand right; you want a set of procedures for dealing with drug overdoses to be a sticky on a chemistry forum? I'm sure this information can be found elsewhere on a more drug-friendly forum?
For regular chemicals - read an MSDS, this is not what sciencemadness exists for.

I don't mean to be polemic, but; pending deletion.

p.s. Other than that, I can only advise the 'head in sand' method of dealing with a problem.

Blind Angel - 20-9-2005 at 11:36

Even though, ScienceMadness is mostly about chemistry, I think that it's also a good repository for knowledge. What I am speaking about is method that propably will be helpful for you is and I didn't want to post it in Whimsy because of the search engine lock on this forum, thus miscellenous seemed the be the best.

I do think that those kind of thing should be in common knowledge. I remember that on The Hive it was about cocaine overdose, very well explained with drawing, but this is only an example. What would you do in case of spilling a liter of concentrated acid on yourself? I know that most members already know what to do, but not all of us (and I'm not sure enough of what to do to be able to do a write-up on the subject).

And I repeat, I did use as an example the one on The Hive since it was relevant, but the title of the thread is what do to during an emergency, and emergency it's a very large term. I'm pretty sure that at least one of the member here has his lifeguard card and could explain us (at least the basic) of the cardio-respiratory reanimation. Or somebody with a good knowledge of the human body to know what to do in case of a cardiac arrest. Any miscellenous information on that subject that we could index here would be usefull, not only for us, but for anyone just to read and possibly remember in thos emergency case.

Electric Shock

Twospoons - 20-9-2005 at 14:01

I'll start.
Not precisely chemistry, but given the use of electricty in a lot of experiments, along with conductive fluids ...

1/ ISOLATE THE POWER SOURCE FROM THE VICTIM. 'Rescuers' get caught all the time when trying to help someone still attached to the power. If you can't get to the switch, use a lump of wood or plastic to move the victim off the power. Last resort , you can kick them off with a booted foot.

2/ CHECK FOR A PULSE. No pulse -> heart is probably in fibrillation. The only reliable fix is a defibrillator, so you will need to call for professional medical assistance. Apply CPR while waiting for the medics to arrive- you can keep the victim alive!

3/ If the victim is conscious and breathing they should still be checked by a doctor. Some heart arythymia may be there, but not obvious from the outside.

4/ Burns are likely, treat as you would any other burn - cold water for 10 minutes.

The_Davster - 20-9-2005 at 16:35

I agree with Ramiel, I can see this thread as a use for general chem emergencies, but not as a drug overdose thread. All the drug type threads in the O-chem section are beginning to piss me off(luckily they are usually closed promptly). The type of thing that would work here is "I gassed myself with 'x'" or "I spilled 'x' indoors, how do I clean it?".

Seeing as most of us experiment alone(unless one of you is lucky enough to have a young female lab assistant;)), what I think would be best suited here is emergency mesaures which can be enacted by you alone or measures that can be taken by ones self so you do not need to call in outside sources which could potentially cause legal repercussions.



[Edited on 21-9-2005 by rogue chemist]

BromicAcid - 20-9-2005 at 17:26

Quote:
emergency mesaures which can be enacted by you alone or measures that can be taken by ones self so you do not need to call in outside sources which could potentially cause legal repercussions.
1-800-222-1222 In the USA is the Poison Help Line, guarenteed anonimity, I have personally used it several times and although the people usually don't know what I'm talking about they do have the resources to quickly look up chemicals and determine a plan of action, of course they always tell you to go to a hospital, but they give other information too. It's toll free, is there an equivilent number outside of the US?

There is actually a section on this in my book project on this subject, I'm trying to make it much more comprehensive then it currently is though. If there is nothing you can do, run! Otherwise dump it in water (basified or acidified) or smother it with sand usually one of the two works. If you spill it on your skin run it under water. Etc. common sense guids you through most disasters though the best defense to anything going wrong is to make a plan of action before hand. Also fire extinguishers are handy if not completely effective. Solutions of weak oxidizing or reducing reagents (such as sodium thiosulfate) can be used to treat spills of their counterpart on the human body, the latter being used to treat bromine burns. Copper sulfate solutions used to treat phosphorus burns, there are more specific ones then I care to mention. Perhaps someone should make a master list. Of course if no one else will get hurt and things get really out of control run! Nothing is worth your life.

vulture - 6-12-2010 at 08:56

In any emergency, stay calm. Panic and adrenaline rush reduce your mental capacity to 30% of the normal level. That means your competence is reduced to that of a mental retard.

Never endanger yourself trying to rescue someone or trying to contain a fire. One attempt, if it doesn't work, get out and relay as much information to the emergency services as possible.

Do not blindly try to extinguish a fire. Take a few seconds to think about the proper way to do it. Water on a burning pile of metal, hydride or organic solvent is no good to anyone.

In case you're working with multiple people or there are other people present in vicinity of your work areaaccount for stragglers. Don't let it come to "I thought he was with you".

Develop a worst case scenario. This is basically risk analysis 101. Account for side reactions which can become major reactions when a reaction gets out of control. In case of really hazardous reactions prepare containment measures.

madscientist - 6-12-2010 at 10:01

A discussion about how to deal with accidents is arguably a discussion about preparedness.

Stock ample fire extinguishing materials.

Keep dilute acids and bases on-hand to neutralize chemical burns.

Always wear goggles! It's the reaction you're sure is benign that blows up in your face. What good is discovering the next Nobel Prize winning "Volcano of Corrosion" when you're too blind to continue your work? :P

Wear gloves and a respirator when dealing with compounds that are corrosive or toxic. Solutions can dribble down the side of a beaker and absorb through your skin without you noticing. A reaction can become hotter than expected and drive out poisonous gasses you expected to stay in solution. Be prepared!

Learn from others mistakes, and learn proper lab procedures. One handbook that covers a lot of this territory is "The Organic Chem Lab Survival Manual: A Student's Guide to Techniques" by James Zubrick.

And most importantly, study chemistry in general, not just the reaction or compound or whatever it is you're interested in. I cannot emphasize this enough. If you don't, when something bad happens that you didn't specifically prepare for, you're in real trouble. No one can foresee everything that could go wrong, and you will foresee almost nothing if you lack a broad education. Only reading accident stories and studying lab procedures will not make you prepared. Something you never even considered, and have never heard of happening, will happen eventually. It takes a chemist to know how to react.

bbartlog - 6-12-2010 at 10:44

'Panic and adrenaline rush reduce your mental capacity to 30% of the normal level.'

Disagree. Maybe if you ask someone to solve irrelevant math problems while they're panicking it would seem like this, but in my experience with fires specifically, the adrenaline just leads to increased speed and clarity. There is probably some mental tradeoff (greater speed and narrower focus) but Mother Nature is not so backward as make adrenaline cripple you.
That said, preparation and a plan are far better than trying to figure out what to do once something has happened. I always work with a fire extinguisher and a five gallon bucket of water, and often (depending on what I'm doing) a solution of bicarbonate. I also made sure that my exhaust fan has a remote control so that I can turn it up to maximum power without evening entering my lab space, if I have to.

The WiZard is In - 6-12-2010 at 11:47

Quote: Originally posted by Blind Angel  
What to do during an emergency?


--------
Some years ago a study found the best first aid for an heart
attack victim was - call 911. One would suspect this being
good advise for other medical problems.

Noted in passing —

TJ Meredith & et al
Antidotes for Poising by Cyanide
Cambridge U Press1993
177 p.

cyanureeves - 6-12-2010 at 13:31

what if the remedy doesnt work? it aint like a failed synthesis where you can start over. 911 for sure and maybe a hail mary.you're liable to get shot or sued to say the least if you do one of those travolta moves.i saw one person in the E.R. spew black charcoal administered by a nurse to an o. d. patient.the patient was unconscience even.she was like a hot shook up coca cola.i mean it was viloent.the nurse said every orifice in the her body protested.

vulture - 6-12-2010 at 15:35

Quote:

Disagree. Maybe if you ask someone to solve irrelevant math problems while they're panicking it would seem like this, but in my experience with fires specifically, the adrenaline just leads to increased speed and clarity. There is probably some mental tradeoff (greater speed and narrower focus) but Mother Nature is not so backward as make adrenaline cripple you.


Adrenaline does not cripple you. But it clouds your judgement, it focuses all energy on fight or flight. This figure comes from a fire fighting course from the fire department I had to follow, it could be exaggerated for didactic purposes.

But I did witness the effect first hand on two occasions. First incident was a PhD student preparing a rather large amount of Grignard reagent by the usual method, that is dripping a halide to Mg metal. For some reason, the valve of the addition funnel suffered catastrophic failure and the halide rushed into the flask, causing a runaway. Instead of removing the addition funnel and/or trying to cool the reaction and/or closing the fumehood sash, the student in question did none of the above. Instead he stepped back in disbelief with his hands on his head and froze for at least thirty seconds, during which the reaction spun further out of control.

The second incident involved a few grams of NaH igniting during manipulation. Funny thing is that I noticed something was amiss because my bunsen flame in the fume hood suddenly turned orange (goes to show how sensitive the flame test is). Again the person in question showed some signs of slight panic and was about to go for the fire extinguisher, which would have been a bad choice. I grabbed the dish with the burning NaH, threw it in a glass disposal container (no flammable content) which I placed in the fumehood.

I believe that this is not always real panic, but usually disbelief "this can't be happening (to me)". Either way, vital time is usually lost.

[Edited on 6-12-2010 by vulture]

Sedit - 6-12-2010 at 17:04

My thoughts are in case of emergency have knowledge about WTF your doing. Take for instance when My NH3 generator clogged with NaOH and promptly blew its lid. My skin burned from the NH3 comming out but quick thinking allowed me to rapidly pour out a large bowl of HCl and hover above it. Not something you would normally do by any means but knowledge of what I was working with allowed me to think fast and save myself serious longterm issues. Most I got was a few chemical burns on my hand and my face is still as pretty today as it was then even though that was ground zero when the jar went off. Now I keep around vinegar and a large solution of Bicarbonate incase any future event calls for them. I could have doused myself in the AcOH and other then stinking for a while it would have been safer then what I was forced to do at the time.

Its up to the user to understand safety in case of emergency situations not for us to tell them IMHO.

ziqquratu - 6-12-2010 at 19:21

A bucket of sand is more useful than a bucket of water for most organic-related fires... and a bucket of vermiculite can be useful for big spills. Never hurts to have some dilute acid/base on hand if working with large amounts of those reagents, but only for use on non-living surfaces (not for use on the skin or in case of ingestion/inhalation, etc., even if it's "only" vinegar or sodium bicarbonate).

For burns, cuts (particularly with broken glass, so you can more easily check for splinters), spills or whatever else to your person, 10 minutes of cold, running water is almost always a good idea (or at the least, is something to start on while you consider your next move. Unless you've severed an artery or something similarly catastrophic, it's unlikely to do any further harm!).

DON'T go shoving your burnt/contaminated arm in a bucket of ice! A bucket of cool water is better than nothing, but cool running water is the best option.

[Edited on 7-12-2010 by ziqquratu]

hissingnoise - 7-12-2010 at 05:01

Spinning like a dervish, flailing arms wildly and loudly shouting "Don't Panic" works for me!


ScienceSquirrel - 7-12-2010 at 05:30

For accidents with chlorine triflouride I find the following advice quite useful;

"It is, of course, extremely toxic, but that's the least of the problem. It is hypergolic with every known fuel, and so rapidly hypergolic that no ignition delay has ever been measured. It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water — with which it reacts explosively. It can be kept in some of the ordinary structural metals — steel, copper, aluminium, etc. — because of the formation of a thin film of insoluble metal fluoride which protects the bulk of the metal, just as the invisible coat of oxide on aluminium keeps it from burning up in the atmosphere. If, however, this coat is melted or scrubbed off, and has no chance to reform, the operator is confronted with the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire. For dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes."

Previous to and during World War II it was investigated by the Germans as a combined poison gas and incendiary weapon and found to be very effective! :D

The WiZard is In - 7-12-2010 at 06:59

Quote: Originally posted by ScienceSquirrel  
For accidents with chlorine triflouride I find the following advice quite useful;

[snip]

If, however, this coat is melted or scrubbed off, and has no chance to reform, the operator is confronted with the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire. For dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes."




It happened at their [General Chemical] Shreveport, Louisiana, installation, while
they were preparing to ship a out, for the first time, a one-ton steel cylinder of CTF.
The cylinder had been cooled with dry ice to make it easier to load the material into
it, and the cold had apparently embrittled the steel. For as they were maneuvering
the cylinder onto a dolly, it split and dumped on ton of chlorine trifluoride onto the
floor. It chewed its way through twelve inches of concrete and dug a three-foot hole
in the gravel underneath, filled the place with fumes which corroded everything in
sight, and, in general, made on hell of a mess. Civil Defense turned out, and started to
evacuate the neighborhood, and to put it mildly, there was quite a brouhaha before
things quited down. Miraculously, nobody was killed, but there was one casualty -
the man who had been steadying the cylinder when it split. He was found some five
hundred feet away, where he had reached Mach 2 and was still picking up speed
when he was stopped by a heart attack.

Ignition! An Informal History of Liquid Rocket Propellants
John D Clark
Rutgers University Press 1972

The book is in the forum library, it is a good read.

a_bab - 7-12-2010 at 10:16

Not very long ago I got some tungsten carbide pieces that I wanted stripped of the residual brass (used as a solder), so nitric acid was the obvious choice. Since the pieces were impresivelly heavy a glass vessel was out of question. I went for the cheap improvised route; I simply took one of these pesky PET bottles, cut it it half and presto: got my beaker.

I poured the carbide pieces (3 kilos, but only half of liter in volume) and took the thing outside. NO2 is nasty isn't it?

Half an hour later I drained the spent acid and added more (60% - ish), very carefully not to splash a drop or to put a yelow hole (or several) in my pants. My wife always gets mad at this you know. Capped the bottle, put it aside, and turned towards the thing. I had a close look at how the reaction went. There was very little fizzing and in a matter of seconds the acid turned a beautiful blue. Cobalt blue, very different from the copper nitrate blue. There were only streaks of brass left here and there, and then it happened. The PET popped in a better position as it was bent and deformed by the weight of the carbide pieces. That snap was followed by a prompt splash of some drops of 60% nitric acid STRAIGHT into my left eye. The house was 20 meters away, and it must have took me 3 seconds to get my face under the tap, while yelling: BAKING SODA!!!!111 . Halfway it started to really hurt. Oddly enough I could "taste" the acid such as my eye had some taste sensors. Very visceral experience.

Due to the speed I acted and a whole bunch of luck undoubtely the only problem was a bloodshot eye for 3 days. There were no marks on the face. Should it been conc. sulfuric acid I may very well have lost an eye.

This was the closest call I ever had. It could have ended really bad. ALWAYS WEAR GOOGLES WHEN WORKING WITH caustic stuff. I do it now.

Arthur Dent - 7-12-2010 at 14:43

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
...loudly shouting "Don't Panic" works for me!


Yes... that's pretty much my motto! LOL!

Security-wise, I keep my acid bottles in large plastic pails, and I have a bag of absorbent cat litter in case of a spill. I have few really dangerous reagents aside form HNO3 and H2SO4... and I keep the HCl outside!

Any experiment that remotely has any risks is done outside... an unexpected cloud of chlorine after a rogue reaction is much better outdoors than in my basement! Frankly, anything that could jeopardize the integrity of my house will not be done IN my house. That's my hazard prevention policy.

I always wear goggles, and also latex gloves for aggessive chems. I also have material to neutralize a reaction depending on what it is (cat litter, sand, baking soda, water or other. Oh, and a roll of scott towels! ;)

Robert

Ephoton - 7-12-2010 at 18:02

I likes to work in bear feet :)

the problem is the bears just dont like it at all.