Sciencemadness Discussion Board - It's not just amateurs they're harrassing...

It's not just amateurs they're harrassing...

Jen - 15-9-2005 at 14:07

I work in a university in England, and we got sent a couple of emails around recently, because the Home Office needed information about any labs which had certain 'drug precursor' chemicals and what we were using them for.

Among the 'drug precursors' that we have to report? Potassium permanganate. You can see here the list of chemicals that are considered precursors, and the forms that will have to be filled in.

In the field 'the substance will solely be used for', I'd be tempted to write 'CHEMISTRY'. You know, I hear they use water to make drugs sometimes, too. Let's ban that next. (Alas, I joke, but H2SO4 and HCl are 'category three' precursors, according to the Home Office...)

The_Davster - 15-9-2005 at 14:28

Now that is severly messed up. Even the US has not sunk that low to my knowledge. What is wrong with the world when UNIVERSITIES of all places are suspected to be involved in illegal drug manufacture.
What the hell. :mad:

[Edited on 15-9-2005 by rogue chemist]

Mumbles - 15-9-2005 at 15:03

On a topic semi-related. It's not about college labs and such, but still they are going after more than just amatures.

They are trying to classify all commerical firework shells larger than 8" as illegal to possess. If they make them illegal, the holiday shows will be much smaller, and less impressive. This is a regulation being placed on professionals. They are trained to handle, store, and use these devices, yet they want to make them illegal.

[edited to make it clear that the "shells" are fireworks]

[Edited on 16-9-2005 by I am a fish]

chemoleo - 16-9-2005 at 06:18

Quote:

What is wrong with the world when UNIVERSITIES of all places are suspected to be involved in illegal drug manufacture.

Oh but that's precisely the problem, that some people seek the umbrella of universities to manufacture drugs in the labs. Nearby my own lab some people got kicked out & put in jail for manufacturing bulk LSD.

Thus even professional labs have to get a justification as to why they might need piperidine and so on.

garage chemist - 16-9-2005 at 07:10

Be glad that red Phosphorus isn't regulated!

This is one of the good things of german and GB drug laws, because meth isn't that popular here.

Without red Phosphorus, my experiments with white P and PCl3 would have been impossible.

And the List One regulated precursors (for which even simple possession is illegal) can really only be used for drug manufacture.
The german and GB drug laws aren't hindering hobby chemistry that much (although it's still bad that Acetic Anhydride is regulated).

vulture - 16-9-2005 at 08:21

Quote:

Oh but that's precisely the problem, that some people seek the umbrella of universities to manufacture drugs in the labs.

Filling in papers tor report the use of chemicals is going to do squat about that, because the person filling in the forms is the same person that has to supply the chemicals. If that person is involved or unaware of the situation at hand (quite likely)...

Paperwork never stopped and never will stop criminals, quite on the contrary. Because of stupid regulations, liability and other political mumbo jumbo, these measures are full of loopholes which provide even more opportunities to exploit.

If the average DEA officer knew WTF he was talking about, then he would be able to find the drug labs without paperwork, but with decent detective work. But sitting behind your desk mailing forms and now and then intimidating and locking up addicts and other harmless people is ofcourse alot easier.

mick - 16-9-2005 at 12:47

Did you check out the class 1 . You need to get authorised to use it . Class 2 is fill in a form and everything is OK . Class 3 stuff is if you use more than a few ton then you have to report someone buying it. The class 3 stuff includes sulphuric acid, hydrochloric acid, ether etc.
mick

Illegal Parkinson - 2-10-2005 at 20:09

I definately appreciate that you have taken offense to being interrogated. If there is no victim then there has not been a crime, right?

The_Davster - 6-6-2006 at 16:33

The other day someone in the lab I work at was ordering bismuth from one of the big inorganic suppliers. A few days later the proff got a form in the mail that he had to sign stating that the bismuth would not be used in terroridt attacks. What the hell can bismuth be used for, I remember that the supplier mentioned something nuclear...but really, thats stretching it, as it is now an eco-friendly substitute for lead shot.

We all had a good laugh.

DeAdFX - 6-6-2006 at 19:00

Quote:

Originally posted by chemoleo

Quote:

What is wrong with the world when UNIVERSITIES of all places are suspected to be involved in illegal drug manufacture.

Timothy Leary(sp) comes to mind.

=SkyNET= - 6-6-2006 at 20:48

Bismuth?

That's just retarded. Pardon my choice of words, but these people must have a mental defect to suspect bismuth for use in TERRORIST ATTACKS.

Dumb Laws

MadHatter - 7-6-2006 at 04:28

Vulture hit the nail on the head about lazy feds. It's the same with the BATFE. It's far
safer to harass people at gun shows or pyro chemical suppliers than to risk one's life
going after real terrorists, or worse, inner city drug gangs who violate every federal drug
and gun law there is. Why risk getting blown up or your ass shot off when it's easier to sit
behind a desk or harass somebody who won't offer resistance ?

EllisDTripp - 7-6-2006 at 17:48

Quote:

Originally posted by DeAdFX
Timothy Leary(sp) comes to mind.

Timothy Leary never actually made LSD, AFAIK. He advocated its use, and was endlessly harassed for it, but he wasn't a chemist.

The big-time LSD chemist of the '60s was a guy maned Augustus Owsley Stanley.

triphenylphosphineoxide - 15-6-2006 at 18:36

Quote:

Originally posted by chemoleo

Oh but that's precisely the problem, that some people seek the umbrella of universities to manufacture drugs in the labs. Nearby my own lab some people got kicked out & put in jail for manufacturing bulk LSD.

Thus even professional labs have to get a justification as to why they might need piperidine and so on.

I ran into my former supervisor today, and mentioned this topic. In reply he named a well regarded authority on pharmacollogical modelling, and stated that the reason this guy is known for theoretical work is that he was busted in the first year of his PhD synthesizing meth. Upon reapplying to complete his PhD 18 months later(post incarceration) he was accepted but banned from using chemicals. Using Universities as cover is a proud tradition dating at least back to the early 70's.

vulture - 16-6-2006 at 13:15

Can you imagine my joy when the lab assistant proceeded to clean a severly blotched distillation flask with 35% HF?

I would have paid in excess of $500 to see the look on the face of one of those paranoid fucks at the government.

Oh, BTW, HF works really well for cleaning nasty organic residue. You just have to flush it in time before it starts eating the glass. Flask is still 100% clear and looking like new.

[Edited on 16-6-2006 by vulture]

Sandmeyer - 16-6-2006 at 15:51

Quote:

To put a competent chemist in jail for making a wonderful compound is nothing but abuse and stupidity.

Burn the witch! Burn the witch!

vulture - 17-6-2006 at 13:41

There are also alot of self proclaimed geniuses who use the umbrella of the university to ultimately gain political power. Or idiots that invent their own science.

The_Davster - 28-6-2006 at 05:03

Perhaps, since its recently been discovered to be radioactive they fear its use in dirty bombs

It would be hilarious if it was not proably true

YT2095 - 28-6-2006 at 05:31

I could be wrong, but I was taught that anything from element 84 (Inclusive) was radioactive, and that below 84 need not necesarily be.
I think I`de be more worried of ingesting it`s salts, that getting Nuked by it

IIRC, isn`t it also in Pepto-Bismol or something like that also?

[Edited on 28-6-2006 by YT2095]

woelen - 28-6-2006 at 07:01

Bismuth is radioactive, but with a half-life of 10^17 years or so. This activity is INCREADIBLY low, so in practice it is not noticeable.

neutrino - 28-6-2006 at 07:19

Here we go with the radiation again...

It's true that Bi is slightly radioactive. And I mean slightly. It's half life is ~2 x 1019 years.

Of course, this says nothing of its safety. Remember that the world around us has natural background radiation that probably makes a chunk of bismuth look like empty space.

If someone wanted to build a dirty bomb with a radioactive material, ordinary KCl (no-sodium table salt substitute) would be far more practical. Potassium-40, which makes up 0.012% of natural potassium, has a half life of only 1.3 x 109 years.

And, of course, making a dirty bomb out of salt is far from practical anyway.

So, why is bismuth considered hazardous?

YT2095 - 28-6-2006 at 08:07

yeah, I was thinking along the lines of Carbon dating and Nitrogen dating too, when you compare with Bi.
it`s just not ever going to be an issue, Bi is a total Non-Event.

Beryllium foil and background radiation, or smoke detectors would worry me more.
saying the words Radiation or Chemical to most of the public is like going into a chicken pen drinking a Lemsip and sneezing alot

panic is bound to ensue

Darkblade48 - 28-6-2006 at 09:09

Quote:

Originally posted by YT2095
saying the words Radiation or Chemical to most of the public is like going into a chicken pen drinking a Lemsip and sneezing alot

panic is bound to ensue

I agree, most of the general public is too ill-informed of basic chemistry/physics/biology and along with the overhyping that occurs in the media, it's no wonder that bismuth is considered "horribly radioactive"

The_Davster - 28-6-2006 at 15:50

Guys, I was being sarcastic about Bi's use...

I was offered a kilo of beryllium sulfate today, one catch, I must take it out of the container it was in and supply my own container.
I said no thanks, but I found it absolutly hilarious. Nasty stuff. Still a few nice, informed, yet insane people these days