Sciencemadness Discussion Board - What do to with KMnO4?

What do to with KMnO4?

Blind Angel - 3-8-2005 at 11:53

What do to with KMnO4?

I just bough 2,27kg (5lbs) of KMnO4 for 36$CAD and I was wondering what to do with it since i'm away from my lab righ now and have only aces to comon household regeant (like Pickle

) and I was wondering if any of you had any idea of what i could oxidise that would be fun?

Nerro - 3-8-2005 at 12:50

96% ethanol to make very concentrated acetic acid (although better ways exist..) and you can make flash with KMnO4

12AX7 - 3-8-2005 at 13:08

Got any glycerin, and thermite?

Concentrated sulfuric acid and the slightest bit of organics?

Tim

The_Davster - 3-8-2005 at 13:36

I agree with 12AX7, KMnO4+glycerin or make Mn2O7, you can spend hours dribbling it onto kleenex.

.

I imagine you could make some sort of pyrotechnic composition with KMnO4 and charcoal.

hinz - 3-8-2005 at 13:36

Make Mn2O7.
Should be a nice stuff, detonates or burns in contact with organic material.
Mix KMnO4 with conc. H2SO4 and you'll get dimanganese heptoxide as an oily stuff on the bottom. (brauer's "Preparative inorganic chemistry" has a more exact synthesis)

The_Davster - 3-8-2005 at 14:18

Brauer has a very good synth or Mn2O7, it gets you the pure liquid Mn2O7, not what we get by simply mixing KMnO4 and H2SO4 in a beaker, a solution of it in sulphuric acid with lots of K2SO4 contamination with a little pure liquid on top. It requires a mortar and pestle that I think is wrecked after the synth as a step involves squeezing out the Mn2O7 from the walls of the mortar with the pestle.

I plan on trying this method once I get a cheap mortar and pestle that I can afford to loose, the one I have now is expensive. I believe Ikea has some cheap ones...

Oh and Hinz, the pure Mn2O7 floats on top of the Mn2O7/sulphuric acid solution, not on the bottom

[Edited on 3-8-2005 by rogue chemist]

S.C. Wack - 3-8-2005 at 16:35

Reactions of KMnO4 with propylene glycol, ethylene glycol, acetaldehyde, ethanol, acetone, IPA, glyoxal, glycolic aldehyde, lactic, pyruvic, glycolic, and glyoxylic acids. In 7 JACS articles published between 1912 and 1923. This is what I have on hand, so I don't know what else is out there.

http://rapidshare.de/files/3629531/jacs.rar.html

[whine-negavibes]Attempted to follow solo's lead today by posting some chemistry more intelligent than the status quo at tards-forum. I spend about 10 minutes a week there. I was immediately called bullshit upon, with a moderator spewing drivel and minutes later the thread was locked so that I could not reply. Guess that is how they like it there, and how they want it to stay. I expected no less, just like my posts being edited and re-edited by moderators at synthetikal, and my posts disappearing at RS.[/whine-negavibes] All of the somewhat chemistry-related forums other than this one are in a sorry state, for whatever reason.

Ask yourself, what could I do to help sciencemadness.org remain the best site on the internet, and make it even better? Why you? Who then?

In changing my sig today from the mystery rapidshare file "tgmwttpc.rar", and checking the stats, I think that I had better explain this to those of you who downloaded this large file. I uploaded that on my last post in the books thread just for hahas. Because I wanted to see if this would get more downloads than some of the chemistry textbooks that I scanned.
Figures. Still active. Unlike the literature.
Why not an mp3 inside it? Why not that one? It was an impulsive choice. It's not like you've heard this version on the radio before, or ever will. Well yeah, I don't hear any Captain Beefheart or Aphex Twin on the radio either, but that's a good thing IMHO. This was a literally a career-ending song/vision, and this live version has better tone than the single. Not many bands were playing dark, metallish songs like that in Feb. 1970, and certainly not to an American audience who came to hear the otherwise-bluesish set. Wish JP did more FM covers, it could be really funny.

moose sniffer - 3-8-2005 at 17:02

you could drink it and see whatn happens

Edit by Chemoleo: Stop posting crap please. In the future you won't be reading this, the delete button will do the job instead!

[Edited on 4-8-2005 by chemoleo]

neutrino - 3-8-2005 at 17:10

You go first.

Could permanganate be reduced to manganate? That would make for a very interesting color change.

tom haggen - 3-8-2005 at 17:34

"not what we get by simply mixing KMnO4 and H2SO4 in a beaker, a solution of it in sulphuric acid with lots of K2SO4 contamination "

I agree with this, I ground my KMnO4 into a very fine powder and still got crapy yields. I was thinking that maybe you could make a super saturated solution of KMnO4 and add that to your H2SO4. I'm going to try

Fleaker - 3-8-2005 at 17:59

Yes the heptoxide is quite a bit of fun, even more fun than digesting a whole sausage in peroxysulfuric ( funny story behind that one

).

If you could get hold of some magnesium and sulfur powder, it makes for some interesting flashes when combined with the permanganate.

On a side note, a concentrated soln of NaOH and some permanganate (determine the amount empirically) works excellently for cleaning stuck on organics, it even changes color so that you know it is working.

Blind Angel - 3-8-2005 at 18:45

thx, for the info, i'll try some to see.
First test: it burn pickle (turn then black/brown)

HCl

chloric1 - 3-8-2005 at 19:05

Numerous household products have Hydrochloric acid in various strengths and purity levels. If you have access to any of these products you could generate copious chlorine gas. If this gas is dry then mildly heated brass will ignite creating some neat zinc chloride smoke! :cool:

sparkgap - 4-8-2005 at 09:03

Would it be impertinent of me to suggest a merger between this thread and this thread?

sparky (~_~)

P.S. Yeah, glycerol and permanganate...

mmm...

guy - 11-8-2005 at 09:22

Quote:

Could permanganate be reduced to manganate? That would make for a very interesting color change

Mix the permanganate in a solution of NaOH. Then add any organic stuff to it and it will turn green (manganate). After a while it will further be reduced to MnO2.

Chris The Great - 11-8-2005 at 18:49

You could make ammonium permanganate, NH4MnO4, which explodes easily, and should produce a very thick cloud of black smoke as well.

2NH4MnO4 --> 2MnO2 + 4H2O + N2 + 565kcal/kg
Vod 1700m/s
Lead block 100-125cm3

Synthesis is simple (from the Encyclodpedia of explosives):
40g KMnO4 is dissolved in 400mL boiling water, 110g NH4Cl is added, and the hot solution is immediatly filtered through a sintered glass funnel (to remove Mn oxides) into a container placed in a cooling mixture. The crystals were recrystalized twice from hot water in the same manner.

Might want to use non-organic filter paper for this...

Explodes on heating to 70*C and maintaining that temperature for 250 minutes. No definate data on sensitivity but "it is likely to explode when rubbed".

chochu3 - 12-8-2005 at 02:37

Use it to test for unsaturation inside organic substances.

saps - 12-8-2005 at 09:40

when potassium permanganate is heated up does it heleased toxic gasses or anything bad??

saps - 12-8-2005 at 10:01

I've inhaled it before

praseodym - 13-8-2005 at 02:45

If it is only potassium permanganate, there shouldnt be any toxic gases when you heat up potassium permanganate. Potassium permanganate, a purple crystalline solid, forms a black powder consisting of a mixture of potassium manganate and manganese dioxide and releases oxygen when heated:

2KMnO4 ==> K2MnO4 + MnO2 + O2

saps - 13-8-2005 at 06:11

what if i were using it to oxedize glycerin and other things??

saps - 13-8-2005 at 06:24

This website: http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/p6005.htm

says (look at #10) that when decomposing it could release harmfull stuff...at about what tempurature do you suppose it might decompose??

neutrino - 13-8-2005 at 10:31

Metal fumes? That sounds like a very high temperature to me. This probably just describes an unlikely worst-case scenario.

The_Davster - 13-8-2005 at 17:51

As always its the worst case scenario in the MSDS...It even says KMnO4 can explode from meachnical shock. Only real danger I can think of from KMnO4/glycerin reaction, apart from the obvious heat, is that at high temps glycerin may form acrolien(sp?).

Spontaneous combustion of glycerine and Potassium permanganate

Lambda - 13-8-2005 at 18:38

If you drop a drip of glycerine on a small pile of fine Potassium permanganate, they will spontaneously ignite after a short delay periode.

Caution: At a low temperature, this may take a long time to occure, so don't make the mistake of thinking that nothing will happen, and throw it away in the trashcan (rubishbin). They will eventually ignite !!!

[Edited on 14-8-2005 by Lambda]

Women used Potassium permanganate to abort a baby

Lambda - 13-8-2005 at 19:04

A old drugstore owner that I know, used to sell Potassium permanganate to women that wanted to abort an unwanted baby. They dissolved the Potassium permanganate in water, and with this solution they performed a vaginal rince. Not only the featus was murderd in this way, but these foolish women also became infertill if they where unlucky. The vaginal damage, was often irreversible. But remember, this was done a long time ago in Holland in a periode that it was unheard of, if a women became pregnant before marriage. They were treated as whores, and band from there villages, for they were a shame to the family and community. Prostitutes used the same procedure for an abortion. :mad:

Things have changed since, for many women have children and are not married. They are not looked down on anymore.

[Edited on 15-8-2005 by Lambda]

praseodym - 13-8-2005 at 21:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Lambda
If you drop a drip of glycerine on a small pile of fine Potassium permanganate, they will spontaneously ignite after a short delay periode.

Caution: At a low temperature, this may take a long time to occure, so don't make the mistake of thinking that nothing will happen, and throw it away in the trashcan (rubishbin). They will eventually ignite !!!

[Edited on 14-8-2005 by Lambda]

I believe this is the equation for the reaction between potassium permanganate and glycerine:
14KMnO4 + 4C3H5(OH)3 ==> 7K2CO3 + 7Mn2O3 + 5CO2 + 16H2O
I believe Mn2O3 is the toxic fumes saps is talking about.

unionised - 14-8-2005 at 12:49

How likely is it that all 18 molecules of reactants in that equation will get together in the right proportions?
The fumes are likely to contain acrolein (formed from hot glycerine) among other compounds.

neutrino - 14-8-2005 at 15:24

It would probably be a multi-step reaction.

The_Davster - 14-8-2005 at 15:26

It would definatly be multi step...Any reaction that involves more than 4 molecules colliding is nearly statistically imposible.

saps - 15-8-2005 at 13:48

I believe that finely divided metal can float in the air even at modest temps. Particle size determines how dangerous they are. Inhaling such particles causes a fever. Different names apply (silicosis, smoke inhalation, welder's fever, etc) depending on what material has been inhaled. If this is true it probably isnt a good idea to heat potasium permangate without a mask...But do you think tyhat prolonged exposure to potasium permanganate and Glyceron reaction could be harmful.

Also: this is kind of off subject but does anybody else know of any chemical reactions that create spontaneous heat/flames?

saps - 15-8-2005 at 15:36

the reaction should also not involve very toxic chemicals

12AX7 - 15-8-2005 at 16:27

Quote:

Originally posted by saps
Also: this is kind of off subject but does anybody else know of any chemical reactions that create spontaneous heat/flames?

Uh, any reaction that has a positive enthalpy, thus releasing heat.

If you mean reactions that start at room temperature, mineral acids and reactive metals (iron, zinc, aluminum, etc.) work. Very reactive metals (magnesium, calcium, sodium, etc.) react with water at room temperature, some (sodium, potassium..) fast enough to ignite the nascent hydrogen produced. Hydrogen and oxygen ignite over a platinum catalyst. Sulfuric acid can be dropped on a sugar + chlorate mixture to ignite it. What else?

Tim

The_Davster - 15-8-2005 at 16:48

Mn2O7 + anything

sodium peroxide + toilet paper + water

alkali metal +water

silver nitrate/magnesium flash + water

ammonium nitrate/ammonium chloride/zinc + water

saps - 15-8-2005 at 17:38

when you state "ammonium nitrate/ammonium chloride/zinc + water " do you meen" ammonium nitrate,ammonium chloride,zinc and water all together

The_Davster - 15-8-2005 at 17:42

I used the slash to indicate that they are already mixed together, then whatever follows the + sign is added.

saps - 15-8-2005 at 18:02

12AX7, is there anything i can substitute for sulfuric acid, in the reaction that involves sucrose, a chlorate, and sulfuric acid?

saps - 15-8-2005 at 18:27

what about reactions between reducing agents and oxidizing agents

chemoleo - 15-8-2005 at 18:52

Quote:

what about reactions between reducing agents and oxidizing agents

Oh boy, don't hijack that thread for some shitty oxidiser /reductant questions please.
There are so many it'd be worth 100 threads.
I am very much tempted to close this thread, it started off well but now it's veering off into a random 'what burns' and 'what doesn't' thread.

Saps, take a break, search the forums and then come back!

Reducing agents

saps - 16-8-2005 at 09:18

I'm playing around with kmno4 and its exothermic abillities to oxidize materials. right now i am oxidizing glyceron. what other reduction agents will oxidize as well as glyceron?

oxidation reactions

solo - 16-8-2005 at 10:06

First off some of the properties of the glycerin you're trying to oxidise........

http://www.sy-kogyo.co.jp/english/sei/1_gly.html

second ,

A dramatic, yet safe demonstration of an exothermic reaction and the strong oxidizing properties of potassium permanganate. Students will observe smoke and fire as glycerine is oxidized to produce carbon dioxide and water. A great amount of heat is liberated by this oxidation-reduction reaction.

here ia a list of incompatibles.....such as this

potassium permanganate: incompatible with,( ethylene glycol, glycerin, benzaldehyde, sulfuric acid )

found here......
http://chemistry.allinfoabout.com/features/incompatible.html

ans here is a link in this forum of what else can be done with Potassium Permanganate....

https://sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=4251

which is probably where you should have started once searching for it with the search engine.....instead of starting a new thread......maybe the thread can be merged there........oh well I hope the information will assist you .................solo

[Edited on 16-8-2005 by solo]

PROPYLENE GLYCOL

saps - 16-8-2005 at 10:34

would PROPYLENE GLYCOL work as well as ethylene glycol

12AX7 - 16-8-2005 at 14:09

Isn't propylene g.ol just glycerin?....

Tim

chemoleo - 16-8-2005 at 14:19

No it is CH3-CH2OH-CH2OH. Usually.

And yes, it is likely to work, too.
Like many others. Did you read solo's post, and did you check KMnO4 MSDS's to find incompatibles? Any liquid alcohol, or generally liquid org. chems with reactive oxidisable groups are likely to work with it.

neutrino - 16-8-2005 at 17:06

Glycol means two OHs, not one for every carbon.

12AX7 - 16-8-2005 at 18:18

Ah, okay. So decylene glycol would be CH3(CH2)8CHOHCH2OH? I take it the OH have to be adjecent, otherwise it's a regular diol?

Tim

Making Nitric acid with Potassium permanganate, Ammonia gas and recycling the process with Air (Oxygen) ???

Lambda - 16-8-2005 at 18:20

I have forgotten the title of this book, but I think it was written by Robert Gatling. The Paladine Press once published it, and I have the book. When I find it, a scan will be made.

What doese the author of this book claime ?:

According to the author of this book, Nitric acid can be made by bubbling Ammonia gas through a solution of Potassium permanganate. The Ammonia gas is oxidized to Nitric acid in this way. Potassium permanganate may again be obtained by bubbling Air (Oxygen) through this solution (?). And thus, the whole process may be repeated, by only applying Ammonia gas, and again recycling with Air. A continuos process, may thus be astablished for the production of Nitric Acid. :cool:

Do you think that this process is feasible ?

neutrino - 16-8-2005 at 18:41

We can't really judge the process without some sense of the reactions that take place. Can you give us some more background?

12AX7 - 16-8-2005 at 19:25

Sounds like, ahh, let's see here. Well Mn could go from +7 to +6 (only stable in base), +4 (MnO2 ppt) or +2 (Mn2+ ion) depending on maybe pH and reactants.

I'm guessing e.g.
6KMnO4 + 4NH3 = 6KMnO2 + 4NO3- + 6H2O, which ends up basic, ready for MnO4- regeneration with O2.

It could work. How long can you go until the acidity kills it and forms Mn(NO3)2 or such?

Tim

Lambda - 16-8-2005 at 20:07

Neutrino, I don't have this book at hand. But what I can say, is that the information that I have given above, is about all that was mentioned in this book.

DeAdFX - 23-11-2005 at 17:34

YOu could use it in oscillating reactions. I don't know of any but it shouldn't be to difficult to find some via google.

I just got 2 lbs of KMnO4. I think I will devote 1-1.5lbs of it to pyrotechnics then the other .5-1lbs to other forms of chemistry.

Darkblade48 - 23-11-2005 at 21:11

Quote:

Originally posted by DeAdFX
YOu could use it in oscillating reactions. I don't know of any but it shouldn't be to difficult to find some via google.

I am unaware that there are oscillating reactions that use KMnO4. I know of the Briggs-Rauscher and the Belousov-Zhabotinsky reactions though, and neither use potassium permanganate

Pyrovus - 23-11-2005 at 22:56

Just an idea, but how about permanganate esters (assuming that there's a way to stop the permanganate from simply oxidising the alcohol)?

Any thoughts?

stygian - 24-11-2005 at 10:27

Searching google for "organic permanganates" doesn't give much but

Because being in solution (permanganates(VII) being soluble in water but
not most organic solvents) enables the MnO4- anions (which are
symmetrical, being resonance-stabilized) to collide and react with the
glycerol molecules. Covalent and organic permanganates(VII), e.g. a
glycerol ester, are too unstable to exist at ordinary temperatures.

Fleaker - 2-1-2007 at 00:19

On the small scale, this picture represents perhaps 3g of permanganate added to an excess sulfuric acid in a large, well-cleaned Pyrex crystalization tray (or a baking dish

). As is readily seen in the picture, the green oil does in fact float, you can even see the red haze of HMnO4 on the glass. Smells keenly of ozone, very irritating. We used a stainless steel spatula to dab at the Mn2O7 and then 2 meters away we would touch it on a small syracuse watch glass of acetone or methyl ethyl ketone. There was a loud report and white flash, accompanied with a 'sooty' smoke of MnO2. All this from a few tenths of a mL of Mn2O7.

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Davster
Brauer has a very good synth or Mn2O7, it gets you the pure liquid Mn2O7, not what we get by simply mixing KMnO4 and H2SO4 in a beaker, a solution of it in sulphuric acid with lots of K2SO4 contamination with a little pure liquid on top. It requires a mortar and pestle that I think is wrecked after the synth as a step involves squeezing out the Mn2O7 from the walls of the mortar with the pestle.

More pictures to post! I must disagree with Rogue Chemist/The_Davster on this one, however, as Brauer's prep went disastrously wrong for us when we tried it using their proportions. Looking back we made some critical mistakes. My friend will explain his horrific experience with this potent oxidizer... Yea, we can tell you what not to do with potassium permanganate

Picture for your enjoyment:

[Edited on 2-1-2007 by Fleaker]

heptoxide slug2.jpg - 275kB

NERV - 2-1-2007 at 01:30

Well let me tell you a little horror story about this beautiful yet terrible substance. While Fleaker and I were preparing dimanganese heptaoxide following the method in Brauers (we cleaned a mortar and pestle thoroughly with peroxysulfuric acid even) everything was going fine and dandy. The oil was forming with its brilliant green luster that was just so mesmerizing. As I was finishing up grinding the mixture gently horror struck as a loud crack and a geyser of purple smoke was witnessed by me and my lab partner. He had a full face shield, and got away with minor burns and has no scars. Immediately, however I felt a searing pain that is only describable as what I would consider the tortures of hell to be shot up my arm. I looked down in horror to see the flesh on my arm sparking, and searing as the heptaoxide caused my flesh to ignite on contact. Without a moments hesitation I was flying through the door to my house stripping my burning clothing off as I ran to the shower upstairs. When I got there I found that my shower door was not opening quite fast enough so in a fit of horrid pain, adrenaline, and fury I smashed the door off of my shower. I immediately jumped in half clothed with ice cold water pouring all over me. Yet it did nothing for the pain and after an half hour of intense scrubbing I applied burn cream, which did little for my pain. I looked over my clothing which was scorched, and completely destroyed from the accident, thankful I was still alive. The truly frightening part though was my goggles which were completely scorched! If it was not for them I would be blind today. The moral of this story….. BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL WITH DIMANGANESE HEPTAOXIDE!!!! You never know what it plans to do, and always wear your goggles because you never know when they might just save your eyes. You only have one pair, take good care of them!

I write this as a dead serious warning to anyone who even considers making this compound. I refuse to ever manufacture it again, and I recommend you study it in theory for anyone else unless you have the best safety equipment available on this planet (that means robotic fucking arms)!

P.S. My shower door has never quite worked right from that day forth.

P.P.S. I think it decomposed because of the humidity and heat of the outside where we did it. Normally, we make it by adding permanganate to cold sulfuric in absolutely clean glassware. We should have chilled the reactants.

jimmyboy - 2-1-2007 at 02:02

hmm - scorched all your clothes - your arm and melted your goggles - shit -- what did you do? make a pound of it to start off with?? you never make a new substance that you have no experience with in that kind of quantity.. i learned this well with MEKP (my ears still ring just from thinking about it haha) -- well im glad to hear you survived another day to tell the story

by the way - if you ever wanted to dissolve someone this stuff would do it - i wonder what it does to bone.. haha bad..

[Edited on 2-1-2007 by jimmyboy]

NERV - 2-1-2007 at 07:55

Actually I had several previous experiences with this substance beforehand that all went very well for me, and Fleaker. The amount produced was exactly the same amount pictured in Fleaker’s post right before my own. Some of the burning done to my clothing I believe was due to unconsumed sulfuric acid in the batch because I had not gotten it mixed all the way through at the time of the accident.

P.S. it wouldnt dissolve anyone it would cause them to burst into flame or spontaniously detonate.

woelen - 2-1-2007 at 08:31

I have done some experiments with this compound (I call it 'liquid from hell' on my website), but I only made it in drop quantities and did not attempt to isolate it from the H2SO4/KHSO4 mix. It is insanely dangerous stuff though.

NERV, good to read that you did not loose your eyes with this! Did you have any residual damage to your body, such as scars or pains?

Nerro - 2-1-2007 at 10:03

Just goes to show that labgoggles really aren't something you can just dispense with "cause the pro's don't need them".

[Edited on Tue/Jan/2007 by Nerro]

joeflsts - 2-1-2007 at 19:25

I performed the following experiment years ago:

3 ml Conc. Sulfuric Acid
6 ml Denatured Alcohol
0.2 g Potassium Permanganate
Test Tube

Add 3 ml Sulfuric Acid (Concentrated) to test tube.
Add 6 ml Alcohol carefully to test tube. It is imporant that the Alcohol and the Sulfuric Acid not mix. It procedure is properly carried out there will be a visible layer between the H2SO4 and the Alcohol.

** It is very helpful to add the ethanol by holding the test tube at a 45 degree angle.

Lock the test tube in a the ring stand in a vertical position.

Carefully add the Potassium Permanganate.

As the Potassium Permanganate passes through the alcohol layer it immediately begins to react with the Sulfuric Acid. The reaction is visible and the Potassium Permanganate starts to change to a dark brown color.

Shortly after the reaction begins, small sparks and explosions followed by "cracking sounds" begin to be visible and audible from the test tube.

This reaction will last for quite a bit of time.

CAUTION:

When disposing of the mixture it is very important that it be destroyed under water. The mixing of the Sulfuric Acid and Alcohol will explode. In fact I was amazed that it create quite a fireball - Under Water !

Joe

NERV - 2-1-2007 at 21:05

Quote:

Originally posted by woelen
I have done some experiments with this compound (I call it 'liquid from hell' on my website), but I only made it in drop quantities and did not attempt to isolate it from the H2SO4/KHSO4 mix. It is insanely dangerous stuff though.

NERV, good to read that you did not loose your eyes with this! Did you have any residual damage to your body, such as scars or pains?

Yeah, it was the ultimate lesson in the importance of goggles in lab work. I admit that before this incident I wouldn’t wear goggles sometimes, but never again will I go without them. I have the ultimate respect for them because I would most likely be blind today without them. As for Scaring I was lucky enough to only end up with two small permanent marks on my wrist, everything else pretty much healed up (of course when my pale arse gets tan the other marks start to become visible). The pain lasted for only for a day or so, after that I stopped feeling the burns. I was lucky enough not get the full amount of heptoxide on me as most of it ended up on my moms patio which she was not too pleased about.

I had originally not wanted to make the stuff because of how unstable it is, but Fleaker convinced me against my better judgment that we could do it safely. We did to at least twice before this try, and then luck just ran out. Last time he will get me to do stupid shit like that in our Lab ever again I am just glad that we never made the large amount he wanted to do.

P.S. no hard feelings Fleaker, I agreed to it so there’s no one to blame, but me really.

Ozone - 2-1-2007 at 21:15

KMNO4 is neat stuff!

I have found that a mixture of KMNO4 and sucrose will ignite when gently tapped with a hammer. Please try this with safety glasses in the event that it explodes. I have done this many times without detonation, but...I believe it could happen.

Additionally, it can be used, when alkaline, to cleave ketones, viz. cyclohexanone to adipic acid (amoung others). It can also be used to oxidize benzyl carbon to the corresponding carboxylic acid.

So many uses, so little time-Be careful,

O3

The_Davster - 2-1-2007 at 21:49

I did the Brauer procedure as well, in this thread:
https://sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=5557&...
(we have waay too many threads on this stuff)

I'm sorry to hear how your experiment went. Hope your burns heal quick!

I admit, I did not have the best habits for goggle-wearing either, but after an incident I now wear them more often, but still not always. I wear prescription glasses, which should be good for the least hazardous procedures, but they saved my eyesight once or twice already.

[Edited on 3-1-2007 by The_Davster]

Aqua_Fortis_100% - 2-1-2007 at 23:06

Quote:

saps wrote:
I believe that finely divided metal can float in the air even at modest temps. Particle size determines how dangerous they are. Inhaling such particles causes a fever. Different names apply (silicosis, smoke inhalation, welder's fever, etc) depending on what material has been inhaled. If this is true it probably isnt a good idea to heat potasium permangate without a mask...But do you think tyhat prolonged exposure to potasium permanganate and Glyceron reaction could be harmful.

This is true… apparently I have a mysterious and powerfull “allergy” when handling this substance.. so I put the dust mask, goggles, gloves (brown staining terribly the hands or any skin), moreover is a toxic material..

Quote:

Lambda wrotes:
Making Nitric acid with Potassium permanganate, Ammonia gas and recycling the process with Air (Oxygen) ???

I have forgotten the title of this book, but I think it was written by Robert Gatling. The Paladine Press once published it, and I have the book. When I find it, a scan will be made.

What doese the author of this book claime ?:

According to the author of this book, Nitric acid can be made by bubbling Ammonia gas through a solution of Potassium permanganate. The Ammonia gas is oxidized to Nitric acid in this way. Potassium permanganate may again be obtained by bubbling Air (Oxygen) through this solution (?). And thus, the whole process may be repeated, by only applying Ammonia gas, and again recycling with Air. A continuos process, may thus be astablished for the production of Nitric Acid.

Do you think that this process is feasible ?

Tried you (or anyone) this? If yes, can you (or anyone) provide more details? Thanks…
really sounds very interesting... :cool:

Quote:

Ozone wrote:
I have found that a mixture of KMNO4 and sucrose will ignite when gently tapped with a hammer. Please try this with safety glasses in the event that it explodes. I have done this many times without detonation, but...I believe it could happen.

Not is necessary a hammer…simple allow a drop of water fall in it… this mix is know by be highly unstable under moisture conditions, and is TRUE…
One question: I’ve noted in my experiments which this mix(KMnO4/sucrose) is much less reactive which the KMnO4/glycerin drops. Even when I powdered the sucrose to a very fine powder and mix very well with KMnO4 (also very fine powdered) ..This is due which the glycerin is more easy to be oxidized by KMnO4 than sucrose or which the glycerin(l) has a great surface area than sucrose(s)??? or both????

Thanks all, and sorry about my poor English or any stupid question…

[Editado em 3-1-2007 por Aqua_Fortis_100%]

[Editado em 3-1-2007 por Aqua_Fortis_100%]

[Editado em 3-1-2007 por Aqua_Fortis_100%]

woelen - 4-1-2007 at 02:35

Quote:

Originally posted by joeflsts
I performed the following experiment years ago:

3 ml Conc. Sulfuric Acid
6 ml Denatured Alcohol
0.2 g Potassium Permanganate
Test Tube

Add 3 ml Sulfuric Acid (Concentrated) to test tube.
Add 6 ml Alcohol carefully to test tube. It is imporant that the Alcohol and the Sulfuric Acid not mix. It procedure is properly carried out there will be a visible layer between the H2SO4 and the Alcohol.

** It is very helpful to add the ethanol by holding the test tube at a 45 degree angle.

Lock the test tube in a the ring stand in a vertical position.

Carefully add the Potassium Permanganate.

As the Potassium Permanganate passes through the alcohol layer it immediately begins to react with the Sulfuric Acid. The reaction is visible and the Potassium Permanganate starts to change to a dark brown color.

Shortly after the reaction begins, small sparks and explosions followed by "cracking sounds" begin to be visible and audible from the test tube.

This reaction will last for quite a bit of time.

CAUTION:

When disposing of the mixture it is very important that it be destroyed under water. The mixing of the Sulfuric Acid and Alcohol will explode. In fact I was amazed that it create quite a fireball - Under Water !

Joe

I again did this a few days ago and made a cool video of this reaction. Have fun, but be very careful, especially the disposal is very critical!

http://woelen.scheikunde.net/science/chem/exps/mini-expl/ind...

The jersey rebel - 28-2-2017 at 11:14

I've never gotten the opportunity to work with permanganates though i assure you that I certainly wouldn't want to make permanganic anhydride. one, I live in 'merica, the land of the scientifically illiterate and paranoid, so I'd probably would get arrested.

Not to mention that my parents hate my lab as is ie. because this sort of thing isn't really legal or illegal where I live. Anything goes in this neck of the woods. Also they really wanted me to follow the family trade ex. banking, data management etc. Though since i'm very interested in things that they don't like or find morally objectionable (my family is rather religious) the amount of issues I run into would increase ten fold if I made this sort of hazardous material which says a lot. Also if I managed to get my hands on potassium permanganate I'd want to stash it in my survival kit for water treatment and fire starting :cool:

. Also it would be a major flaw in common sense to work with high explosives in Central/North Jersey suburban home less than 2 hrs away from Mannhatan of all places thus why I use the jersey rebel as my psydonym/alias. What couldn't possibly go wrong! Please avoid this heptoxide stuff like the plague! I've never seen it in person but everything I've figured out online suggests that it's a dumb idea to make it. As NERV said, robotic arms are mandatory to work with this stuff. Unlike your arms, those can be disposed

TheMrbunGee - 28-2-2017 at 23:24

I played with MnO7 a year ago. Ended up with a ringing ears.

And my advice - always do small quantities when playing with unknown!

https://youtu.be/s0YCwM8Gwqg

DrP - 1-3-2017 at 07:02

I know you lot like your energetics, but I think KMnO4 makes some of the prettiest crystals! Easy to do too.

I spilt some solution onto some paper once and left it there - when I can back the paper had oxidised to burnt paper. It was like a very slow and very cold burning of the paper. Interesting stuff.

Plutonium404 - 1-3-2017 at 07:38

Quote: Originally posted by The jersey rebel

I've never gotten the opportunity to work with permanganates though i assure you that I certainly wouldn't want to make permanganic anhydride. one, I live in 'merica, the land of the scientifically illiterate and paranoid, so I'd probably would get arrested.

You can get KMnO4 in some hardware stores as a water filter regenerator/cleaner.

Db33 - 1-3-2017 at 07:46

i would try to make some Manganese (III) Acetate

wg48temp9 - 28-12-2019 at 08:15

While searching for the solubility of ammonium permanganate I found an interesting paper on inorganic and organic permanganates.

Attachment: permanganate-Trends.Inorg.Chem.20091125..pdf (1.8MB)
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