Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Splitting Water

Dr.Freemanstein - 2-7-2005 at 02:46

Has anyone ever experimented with producing Orth/Parahydrogen??

unionised - 4-7-2005 at 13:14

Rather a challenge for the amateur experimentor. Come to think of it, I don't think we have the kit to play with those at work and that's a new multi-million pound laboratory. I'm not saying that it would cost millions, just that the kit is a bit speciallist.

Dr.Freemanstein - 23-7-2005 at 09:01

On the contrary, with just basic materials and some test equipment. It can be done in any garage,shop,basement....hell you could even do it in your kitchen!!!

solo - 23-7-2005 at 09:22

Ok, you got my attention , please details , articles some first hand experience and the pit falls..........oh the most important , how much energy will I gain from this experiment.............solo

Dr.Freemanstein - 23-7-2005 at 09:34

I am currently WIP on this experiment in my own lab, but i am going by others past experience. It works by oscillating two concentric electrodes in water with a sqaure waveform. This in a sence, creates a tuning fork effect, and facilitates molecular breakdown of the water.
This produces oxygen and ortho-hydrogen.
With the addidition of a toroidal electrode in the reactor, also oscillated with a different frequency, oxygen and para-hydrogen can be generated.

12AX7 - 23-7-2005 at 10:38

Wouldn't that kinda have to be in the microwave (or higher) region?

Tim

unionised - 24-7-2005 at 09:12

"It works by oscillating two concentric electrodes in water with a sqaure waveform. This in a sence, creates a tuning fork effect, and facilitates molecular breakdown of the water.
This produces oxygen and ortho-hydrogen.
With the addidition of a toroidal electrode in the reactor, also oscillated with a different frequency, oxygen and para-hydrogen can be generated."

Is it just me or is that complete bollocks?

Even if it worked (and it won't) How long would any para or ortho H2 last before re-equilibrating to the equilibrium mixture?
I smell a troll.

Organikum - 24-7-2005 at 09:26

Using an axe would be more feasible than this bullshit.

/ORG

unionised - 24-7-2005 at 09:57

I think his next attempt will use lasers and really powerful magnet, but the important thing will be that it spins.:D

As an aside, how would you know if it had worked? Kitchen based science to meausure o/p ratios in hydrogen would be pretty tricky too.

Dr.Freemanstein - 25-7-2005 at 13:40

Scoff if u wish, but
1. It would not have to involve microwaves, just a basic ic generated waveform.
2. If its gonna be used, who cares if its stable, burning the hyro/oxygen would recombine it anyway.
3. Who cares about measuring how much is produced, it would be burnt soon enough (anyway in a sealed reactor environment, a pressure guage would suffice!)
4. I am not in any way troll like.
5. This is not complete bollocks
6. I thought a forum such as this would be home to open-minded enlightened people. It might as well be the f***ing VATICAN!!!!

Anyway....you can scoff, but this experiment can work, will work, and HAS worked. What do u think Honda have fitted to their new concept car?????:mad:

12AX7 - 25-7-2005 at 13:50

So what is the chemical difference between ortho- and para-hydrogen and why would electrolysis yield one over the other under any particular conditions?

Tim

Dr.Freemanstein - 25-7-2005 at 14:10

Ortho/Para Hydrogen are different isomers of hydrogen. In Ortho, the two nuclei spin parallel, in Para, they spin anti-parallel. That much i do know. All i know regarding how, is that the oscillation causes a molecular breakdown from H2O to 2H2 + O2

Dr.Freemanstein - 25-7-2005 at 14:14

The different yeild is something to do with the initially liberated orthohydrogen, being oscillated a second time by a different frequency. I guess altering thespin of the nuclei

Dr.Freemanstein - 25-7-2005 at 14:28

Heres the beauty part....this system (being self pressurising) will yeild enough of the stuff, off 12v DC, to run your car!!! With very little modification!!!

Reliable sources required

Lambda - 25-7-2005 at 15:21

Dear Dr.Freemanstein, this is a forum of open-minded enlightened people !
(Reff.: Dr. Freemanstein posted on 25-7-2005 at 10:40 PM, remark 6).

It would be very much appreciated, if you will be so kind as to advise us on any good information you may know of in the form of literature, patents and websites.

Remark:
Normal hydrogen at room temperature contains 25% of the para form and 75% of the ortho form. The ortho form cannot be prepared in the pure state. Since the two forms differ in energy, the physical properties also differ. The melting and boiling points of parahydrogen are about 0.1 degrees C lower than those of normal hydrogen.

Producing ortho para hydrogen (pdf-file):
http://fermi.uchicago.edu/publications/PDF/oka203.pdf

Patents - The Hydrogen & Fuel Cell Technology:
http://www.h2fc.com/technology/patents/other.shtml

[Edited on 26-7-2005 by Lambda]

Dr.Freemanstein - 26-7-2005 at 09:06

Thank you Lambda for the tip, i was a bit hasty with my unsubstantiated claims.

My first interest in this experiment, was not the para/ortho reaction itself, but the efficient extraction of combustable gas from water. I first found a file outlining a device that would run any i.c engine on tapwater! Needless to say, i was a little apprehensive, but i did some research and found a U.S patent with the very same device, the focus of which was the production of ortho/para hydrogen, but it did make mention of the applications of such an experiment.

I have attached these two PDF's for you all to peruse.

Any constructive input on this experiment would be most appreciated

Dr.Freemanstein - 26-7-2005 at 09:15

Well....i would include the files IF it would let me upload them!

It keeps saying the attachment is too big!!! And i've tried compressing them aswell!!!

Any ideas??

neutrino - 26-7-2005 at 10:04

Put them up on rapidshare

Dr.Freemanstein - 26-7-2005 at 15:35

Thanx neutrino

here's the links everybody

http://rapidshare.de/files/3385716/_free_energy_fuel_from_wa...

http://rapidshare.de/files/2641939/How_to_Convert_your_Car_t...

once again...thank-you!

i did'nt know such a fantastic service existed!:D

Dr.Freemanstein - 26-7-2005 at 15:43

actually....don't try these links!!!

i just tried to test the downloads and it asked me to wait an hour!!!:(

bad service, nasty service, in your bed!!!!

if you want the files, drop me a line
and i'll e-mail them to you...it would probably be quicker:o

dr.freemanstein@tesco.net

Twospoons - 26-7-2005 at 16:45

That second pdf is bullshit. It implies you can run your car forever on a tank of water. Sorry, but no. If this really worked I don't think billions of dollars would be being invested in ITER, the fusion research project.

Improved electrolysis efficiency may be possible (classical electrolysis is roughly 50% IIRC) - but not 'over-unity'.

How to make cheap Hydrogen gas

Lambda - 26-7-2005 at 21:08

Personly, I think that the future lies in the classical electrolysis, biosynthesis, nuclear fusion technology and catalytically introduced breakdown of steam to form Hydrogen gas.

unionised - 27-7-2005 at 10:41

"3. Who cares about measuring how much is produced, it would be burnt soon enough (anyway in a sealed reactor environment, a pressure guage would suffice!)
"
Anyone who wan't to prove that it's really para hydrogen rather than the normal 3 :1 mixture would need to measure some parameter that depends on the o/p isomer ratio.
Let's see you do that with a pressure gauge.

Since both the files you posted seem (from the titles) to be at odds with the conservation of energy and you have provided neither experimental results nor a competent theoretical explanation of your assertion, I still think it's bollocks.
Classical electrolysis often aproaches 100% efficiency- so there's not much scope for improvement.
Just because an idea is patented does not mean it works.
The Patent Office is not a testing house.

Quibbler - 27-7-2005 at 11:01

ortho/para hydrogen are properties of the nucleus. Breaking water into H2 and O2 is about electrons. The nucleus has nothing to do with the bonds in water. As ever you will only get out as much energy reforming the bonds as you put breaking them. I'm sure you could find an article about running your car on zero point energy - and that would be bollocks as well.

Dr.Freemanstein - 27-7-2005 at 13:26

Why i am i talking to you guys at length about this anyway???
I guessed from the start that you are all problematic of science these days anyway!
Proof, proof, proof, proof, measure, measure, measure!
Has anyone got an imagination behind their sliderule???

I'm out of here and never frequenting this bullshit board again

Fuck-you and goodnight

A little more feedback

Lambda - 27-7-2005 at 13:52

Quote:
Originally posted by Dr.Freemanstein
I am currently WIP on this experiment in my own lab, but i am going by others past experience....

Some more feedback, would have been expected from an authority in this field I would say. I think we have just lost a WIP guy's,.... oh well, then we will just have to do with 2429 - 1 = 2428 members to run this wonderfull forum, don't you think ?

FrankRizzo - 27-7-2005 at 14:04

Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya, bitch!

Science is based on facts and logic, everything else is bullshit.

Speaking of bullshit, has anyone else seen this television series? Penn & Teller: Bullshit!
It's absolutely Wonderful. If you don't have access to Showtime, episodes are available on USENET and through torrents (btjunkie.org is my favorite search engine). Watch it! It's good television.
Quote:
Originally posted by Dr.Freemanstein
Why i am i talking to you guys at length about this anyway???
I guessed from the start that you are all problematic of science these days anyway!
Proof, proof, proof, proof, measure, measure, measure!
Has anyone got an imagination behind their sliderule???

I'm out of here and never frequenting this bullshit board again

Fuck-you and goodnight


[Edited on 27-7-2005 by FrankRizzo]

[Edited on 27-7-2005 by FrankRizzo]

sparkgap - 28-7-2005 at 02:35

"...Proof, proof, proof, proof, measure, measure, measure..."

Why? You thought there were parts of science that didn't need measuring? Lord Kelvin must be rotating madly in his grave from this remark of yours... :P

"...Has anyone got an imagination behind their sliderule..."

Imagination is of course a helpful adjunct, but we have to be systematic too, ya know? Besides, we scientists are trained to "question everything" we hear... and that includes you, Herr Doktor. ;)

All the guys in the previous posts were doing was calling the idea bollocks and proceeding to give a (reasonable) justification, and then you give us a "bullshit" and a "fuck you"? You frigging ingrate, we were trying to nudge you in the right direction, and you can't take a hint? Science must not be your field then... maybe mysticism is a more suitable trade for the likes of you? :D

my two cents...

sparky (~_~)

P.S. Damn it, I should've realized that my "Troll Detecting Needle" (patent pending) never goes wrong when it wags... ;)

neutrino - 28-7-2005 at 05:31

I doubt that was a troll. Probably just one of the lost fools adrift in a sea of pseudoscience and speculation.

Fleaker - 28-7-2005 at 09:00

Alas, it's an all too common thing Neutrino.

Substantiate or sink.

Quibbler - 28-7-2005 at 09:36

Perhaps I was a little harsh and slightly incorrect in my last post. I just remembered the bizarre phenomenon called CIDNP (pronounced kidnapped). Chemically InDuced Nuclear Polarization. If a radical is formed sometimes this can selectively cause the nuclei to be prepared in a specific spin state. I'm not sure it may only work in a magnetic field. And it is definitely not going to give you free/cheap energy.