Sciencemadness Discussion Board - 6km/sec VOD From Cast NaCLO4 Composition

6km/sec VOD From Cast NaCLO4 Composition

jpsmith123 - 26-6-2005 at 01:00

Hello,

I found an interesting group of 3 related U.S. patents (assignee: Dyno Nobel Inc.), regarding a castable, cap-sensitive NaCLO4 composition.

I thought I'd share it here in casy anyone else may be interested.

Spefically, what I though was interesting is the high detonation velocity of approximately 6km/sec claimed for this composition; vis-a-vis the cheddites, for example, which are apparently only about half as great.

According to the patents, the composition (in various similar embodiments) has a density of around 1.5 to 1.8 gm/cc.

The higher density, higher perchlorate percentage mixtures seem to be capable of punching a hole in a 3/4 inch steel witness plate.

According to the patent, the main use is intended to be as "a booster or primer and as a seismic explosive in both normal and small sizes."

The patent numbers are 5665935, 5670741, and 5880399. (In case anyone wants to look at these, I have them in pdf format but they are about 500 kbytes each. Is that too big to upload here?)

The preferred embodiment uses sodium perchlorate as the oxidizer and diethylene glycol as the fuel component; also included is water (a few percent), a thickener of guar or xanthan gum, and some other optional ingredients.

I wonder if other chlorates or perchlorates would give even better performance?

I wonder if glycerine, for example, would work as well as diethylene glycol as the fuel component?

Regards,
Joe

Maniak - 26-6-2005 at 03:12

I was interested in this kind of explosives a few years ago - I found the third patent and tried similar mixture:

66%NaClO4 + 9%H2O + 25%ethylenglycol

Sodium perchlorate monohydrate (contains 12,8mol.% water) and no water were used, but still there were particles of solid perchlorate in the fluid - EG is not so good as DEG. Anyway, I'm sure it should be called "brizant explosive", because it's incomparable to some cheddites or the like...
Glycerine might be used, but I think it will dissolve perchlorate much less than EG or even DEG...

Other perchlorates like LiClO4 or Mg(ClO4)2 should be interesting and worth trying because of higher oxygen percentage...

jpsmith123 - 26-6-2005 at 04:17

I wonder how critical the solubility of the oxidizer in the fuel is, in this composition?

According to the 5,670,741 patent: "[T]he preferred fuel is a liquid, water soluble, oxygenated organic material of low volatility. Examples of the preferred fuel include polyhydric alcohols such as glycerol, ethylene glycol, diethylene glycol, triethylene glycol, tetraethylene glycol, propylene glycol, dipropylene glycol, tripropylene glycol, and mixtures thereof."

Yet it seems the inventors used only DEG, and in patent 5,880,399, only DEG is mentioned; so maybe this is the best fuel.

In any case, I'm wondering, what did you use for a thickening agent and did you use a crosslinking agent?

And also, what was your composition like after it cured?

Sprengel Explosives

MadHatter - 26-6-2005 at 05:48

Sounds similar to what this thread is describing. One mixture, called rackarock, is made with
potassium chlorate and mononitrobenzene. It was used in New York City to blast out the
Hell Gate Channel on the East River. Right now, I can't find any VODs on this mixture.

Maniak - 26-6-2005 at 09:36

I used no gelants or crosslinkers - my explosive was just liquid and was poured into a plastic cup...but I think some gums (guar, arabic) or polyacrylamide may be used to prepare semiplastic or gel explosive. Another way - you can use it as densifying agent for DAP or the like...

If the oxidizer isn't dissolved, the mixture is not completely homogenous => small amount of undissolved perchlorate is not critical

"rackarock" mixture is very different - it has liquid and solid phase - MNB can't dissolve any anorganic oxidiser - Vdet is probably much lower, maybe about 3000-4000ms-1 in high diameter charges

Rosco Bodine - 26-6-2005 at 10:53

Mixtures of urea perchlorate , hexamine diperchlorate , and ammonium perchlorate in some combination of binary
or perhaps tertiary mixtures could also result in some interesting compositions .

BromicAcid - 26-6-2005 at 19:41

Note that if it is diethylene glycol that is a stumbling block then may I bring to your attention that diethylene glycol is fairly avalible over the counter (98+% in some instances) in those little heating containers for keeping food hot at banquets. Also note that some brake fluids contain appreciable diethylene glycol though I don't know how stable they would be to sodium perchlorate as mixing some of them with 'pool chlorinators' as a few news programs in my area showed a while ago can lead to ignition/explosion of the mixture.

12AX7 - 26-6-2005 at 21:45

Yeah, but pool chlorinators produce chlorine, a much lower oxidation state than perchlorate. Seems to me hypochlorites oxidize damned near anything, whereas chlorates and especially perchlorates are relatively stable. ClO4- withstands concentrated acids!

Ethylene glycol is also antifreeze, humm, I am suddenly disturbed by the mining-scale explosion a gallon of this material could produce.

Tim

jpsmith123 - 27-6-2005 at 00:07

I think I may get around to trying it one of these days using some glycerine and some DEG from "Blaze Canned Fuel", which I assume wouldn't have any unwanted additives like antifreeze probably would.

I think I will try both sodium perchlorate and ammonium perchlorate (as Rosco suggested).

Also, I think I will try using guar gum as a gelling agent with boric acid (or borax) as a cross linking agent (see patent #6838449).

I'm very curious to see what this stuff looks like after it cures.

Maniak - 27-6-2005 at 04:03

Be sure that mixtures with organic perchlorates are much more sensitive and dangerous and they are more unstable because of hydrolyze

But one think which works well - mixture of aq. solution of urea perchlorate (freshly prepared by mixing 70%perchloric acid with urea) with a stechiometric amount of nitromethane, for example:

85%aq. UP + 15%NM

It is oily liquid (dens. 1,4g/cm3), sensitive to cup no.8 with Vdet = 6000-7000m/s, according to US pat. no. 4,047,987

Rosco Bodine - 27-6-2005 at 07:17

Purely theoretical .......

It would seem logical that an oxygen balanced mixture of urea nitrate and ammonium perchlorate would be a very powerful composition . There would likely
be some reaction between the mixed dry or slightly moistened and warmed materials , which would form urea perchlorate and ammonium nitrate by
double decomposition to some extent , resulting in an oxygen balanced quaternary mixture containing :

urea perchlorate
ammonium perchlorate
urea nitrate
ammonium nitrate

Such a mixture could have eutectic properties , even being liquid at mild
temperatures . It could perhaps have interest as a monopropellant as well as
an explosive .

EDIT : After checking the oxygen balance , it doesn't appear that this is workable . The OB mixture would be about 4.2 grams of urea nitrate with 1 gram of ammonium perchlorate . Such a composition would probably not show much improvement over regular urea nitrate . Better would be an OB mixture of urea perchlorate formed separately and then mixed with urea nitrate .

Methylamine Perchlorate is more interesting . See the attachment on the next post .

[Edited on 27-6-2005 by Rosco Bodine]

methylamine perchlorate

Rosco Bodine - 27-6-2005 at 13:25

Methylamine perchlorate is described as having good stability and power , and only slightly hygroscopic .

Attachment: GB168333 methylamine perchlorate.pdf (151kB)
This file has been downloaded 1894 times

jpsmith123 - 2-7-2005 at 02:36

Thanks for that interesting patent regarding methylamine perchlorate.

BTW, it seems the commercial sodium perchlorate explosive is called "Dynoseis".

According to the MSDS, the proportions are as follows:

Sodium Perchlorate (CAS 7601-89-0) 66 to 72%
Diethylene Glycol (CAS 111-46-6) 22 to 27%

I couldn't find any published performance specifications (at least in any Dyno Nobel literature) , but I did find some data from another company that supposedly tested it.
Density: 1.78 c/cc
Det. Velocity: 22,000 ft/sec
Det. Pressure: 200 Kbar
Gas Volume: 23.2 moles/kg

Rosco Bodine - 2-7-2005 at 08:13

There is a reaction for mixtures of formaldehyde and ammonium nitrate ,
along with a small proportion of urea ,
which results in formation of methylamine nitrate , along with lesser amounts of di and tri methylamine nitrates .

It seems likely that a similar reaction may occur with ammonium perchlorate substituted for ammonium nitrate , with the result being a mixture of the analogous methylamine perchlorate derivatives .

Certainly the in situ formation of such a mixture from more economical precursors would be more desirable than having to work with free perchloric acid and free amine .

The relevant patents for the reaction are
EP0037862
GB1548827

Madandcrazy - 17-7-2005 at 06:56

Likely the mixtures have the same proberties

as some rocket propellants of
the military.

mixtures of
ammonium chlorate/perchlorate and
aluminium powder by molecular wight ...

[Edited on 17-7-2005 by Madandcrazy]

neutrino - 17-7-2005 at 09:55

Ammonium chlorate is avoided like the plague because it spontaneously (dangerously) decomposes.

Fleaker - 28-7-2005 at 09:24

A mixture of ammonium perchlorate and aluminum powder is used in the booster rockets for the space shuttle.

Ref: Kotz, John C. and Treichel, Paul M. Chemistry & Chemical Reactivity. 5th edition. Pg 915. 2003.

jpsmith123 - 12-8-2005 at 08:55

After looking into it some more, I think the key to the performance of this stuff is the fact that the oxidizer *dissolves*, to a certain extent in the fuel.

The increased detonation velocity apparently results from the "molecular adjacency" between oxidizer and fuel molecules you get merely because of the fact that it's in solution. Apparently, in this situation, it's almost like having a molecular explosive.

Apparently it doesn't matter that not all of the oxidizer dissolves (the gelling prevents the excess from settling), if you get enough to dissolve, it supports high velocity detonation.

12AX7 - 12-8-2005 at 11:16

Sounds like it wouldn't hurt to stir it in hot, then crash cool it. Or better still, KClO3/4 grain refiner anyone?

(Grain refiner is essentially seed crystals that aren't very soluble in solution but the primary solute precipitates grows on easily. Such things as titanium boride (TiB2) and zirconium are used as grain refiners for aluminum and copper alloys.)

Tim

simply RED - 18-8-2005 at 02:14

Maniak, could you describe exactly what explosive did you try?
What was the diameter and what initiator did you used.
Was it more powerful than rack/a/rock.

I have tried stechiometric ammonium perchlorate and diesel fuel. 5 grams RDX was not sufficent detonator.

Maniak - 19-8-2005 at 04:53

Mixtures of aqueous solutions of perchlorates with fuels are much different from rackarock - components are much better homogenised (liquid or cast) and there is contact on the molecular level => these mixtures are much more brizant and have much higher VoD. These liquid explosives are just slightly less powerfull than some hellhofites and are incomparable to AN-fuel type expl.

I usualy pack this kind of explosives into some film can or similar container with diameter 25-30mm and fire it with standard detonator (0,7g pressed PETN + 0,2g LA in thinwalled Al cup). Of course, this package is inpractical, it's just for testing.

Your output is quite strange - 5g RDX is really enough to detonate your mixture. Try to use better fuel or just perchlorate which is partially soluble in the fuel.

[Edited on 19-8-2005 by Maniak]

simply RED - 20-8-2005 at 04:25

I will try NH4ClO4 + 1,3-propandiol in the beginning of October.

Yes, 5 grams RDX was not sufficent to initiate complete detonation (NH4ClO4 - diesel). The diameter was 3cm, plastic pill box. The whole box was shattered, the brick near the device was shattered too, but tiny particled of the mix were observed glued to the brick particles.
The reason of the low sensitivity was that the NH4ClO4 particles become wet with diesel, and the perchlorate is insoluble in diesel.
Ammonium perchlorate with 10% hexamine (dry mix) detonates readily from 5 grams RDX or 7 grams HMTD (never tried less powerful det). The mixture has 150% the phugass power of TNT and 90% brizance (brizance depending on how well mixed). Diameter 5 cm. One drawback is the mild hygroscopic hexamine...

Request for software relating to Detonics

Lambda - 21-8-2005 at 00:37

Quote:

Originally posted by jpsmith123
.....I couldn't find any published performance specifications (at least in any Dyno Nobel literature) , but I did find some data from another company that supposedly tested it.....

I am sorry to wander off topic here, but I could not resist asking:

Dose anyone have access to software relating to "Detonics". Software to be used to predict detonation velocity, critical diameter, output energy, effective energy, DDT ect. The reason I quoted Jpsmith123, is because he may have access to Dyno Nobel software:

* 2d Bench - Blast design software for performing timing simulations, load and energy factors, costs, and blasting records.

* 2d View - For viewing designs developed in 2d Bench in 3 dimensions.

* JK Energy Distribution - For viewing energy contours and distribution for design developed in 2d Bench.

* Pro Blast - Practical blast design and cost optimiser that compares two designs using important criteria such as energy factors, powder factors, simulated fragmentation, drill requirements, drilling, explosive and loading costs.

* Pro Bench - Software custom designed for the Mine that adapts the Pro Blast Program in order to evaluate four designs with multiple production blast rows that are each loaded with separate loading schemes. Also has a graphic display in order to compare visually design with decks and angled holes.

* Pro Dig - Excavator productivity program that evaluates blast performance on cycle times to load haul trucks to compare varying blast designs and loading conditions.

And now my two cents to stay on topic:

Simply RED, when you mix Diesel oil with a small amounts of Ammonium perchlorate, it is important to let natural caking do it's work. By just premixing the two, you will introduce erratic density spots. Erratic density can even let an overcritical diameter charge die out. Because you are using such small ammounts, a natural caking process may be beneficial. The detonator has to be put into the Ammonium perchlorate first, and only then the Diesel oil must be added. After this mix has performd a natural caking process, and left undisturbed, it may be detonated. The Ammonium perchlorate must not be packed to tightly though. Using Ammonium perchlorate in Slurry explosives, has less drawbacks. Aluminium powder and /or Nitro methane are good sensitisers and fuels.

[Edited on 21-8-2005 by Lambda]

simply RED - 22-8-2005 at 04:41

Diesel fuel - NH4CLO4 is awful mix...
I may try also adding Al to soluble fuel- perchlorate.

tumadre - 3-1-2006 at 09:07

if you are looking for a solid fuel rocket try polyurethene and ammonium perchlorate this was used in U.S. in bosters, icbms, and other bosters
another liquid fuel mix- a bomb if mixed together
is dimethylhydrazine and nitrogentetroxide
a liquid fuel rocket used for American Cold war material.

neutrino - 3-1-2006 at 14:34

This thread is about compositions that detonate, not ones that deflagrate. Please post this in an appropriate thread.

NaClO4

Laboratory of Liptakov - 13-3-2016 at 08:52

Explosives on NaClO4 based, you can see here. His VoD is from 5200 - 7000m/s. Very cheap, easy and very brisant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC_XYAaAWqc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYFT-JFr7Ow

Bert - 13-3-2016 at 09:20

Is Sodium perchlorate commonly available as a technical grade chemical in your country?

In my experience, only the Potassium and ammonium salts are cheap and easily sourced in the USA. If Sodium perchlorate can be found at all, it's a higher priced reagent grade.

NaClO4

Laboratory of Liptakov - 13-3-2016 at 10:04

It is usually necessary to prepare NaClO4 in laboratory. Commercial availability worldwide miserable, difficult. Preparation is in a few steps. NaCl (table salt) or bleach. Prepare NaClO3 from the bleach is on you tube about 10x. Next step is conversion NaClO3 on NaClO4. Hot melt method (on YT) , or this method on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZnYqmbiukI
Small amount a few % NaClO3 (in NaClO4) is for this type explosive not important. Thus, high explosive from table salt. Get or making HNO3 and H2SO4 is usually difficulty, than produce-prepare NaClO4. Conditions are a quality electrodes, of course. For ClO4....... LL..... :cool:

visualplayer - 10-6-2016 at 23:02

We have made some experiments on this explosive and archieve to reach 6500 VOD, however I'm not comfortable with aluminium powder and water mix. It seems quite safe, but I dont feel safe with that.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 11-6-2016 at 08:46

It are very good results. I recommend decrease content of water for better VoD. Content of aluminium is only for quickly using during 24 hrs. Without aluminium is this composition high stabile. Feel of discomfort with explosives? It is usually. It are explosives. It is for hard guys. ...LL ... :cool:

[Edited on 11-6-2016 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

[Edited on 12-6-2016 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

visualplayer - 12-6-2016 at 02:05

We're trying some alternatives to Alum. Also Iron Oxide gives promising resuts.

hissingnoise - 12-6-2016 at 02:17

Alum is a mixed sulphate salt ─ and the symbol for aluminium is Al!

NaClO4 Source worldwide shipping

energeticone - 2-8-2016 at 18:04

found NACLO4 98% Source....PM for contact

hissingnoise - 3-8-2016 at 01:22

P/M?

Why not just give us the link?

NaClO4

Laboratory of Liptakov - 3-8-2016 at 12:30

Hmm.. worldwide shipping ? Personal message ? Why? Science madness is not commerce or business organisation.
Or is "energeticone" a new nick for NSA collect information ? /huaha/ .... :cool:

...LL

energeticone - 6-8-2016 at 12:33

Reagent707@gmail.com

110 USD /KG 98% NACLO4 Monohydrate

PHILOU Zrealone - 6-8-2016 at 13:25

Quote: Originally posted by energeticone

Reagent707@gmail.com

110 USD /KG 98% NACLO4 Monohydrate

Just for the info:
98% NaClO4.H2O = 85,4% NaClO4

energeticone - 7-8-2016 at 12:47

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone

Quote: Originally posted by energeticone

Reagent707@gmail.com

110 USD /KG 98% NACLO4 Monohydrate

Just for the info:
98% NaClO4.H2O = 85,4% NaClO4

...I stand corrected...

NaClO4

Laboratory of Liptakov - 7-8-2016 at 13:18

Very important info from Philou. 100 grams monohydrate is only 85,4 grams of dry NaClO4. But this salt is very hygroscopic. Therefore is usually better heated monohydrate over 140 C and preparation total absolutly dry salt. Easy shortly process on inert surface. After dryed do precise and quickly weighing to some composition. Thanks.. :cool:

...LL

ecos - 8-8-2016 at 03:31

Quote: Originally posted by energeticone

Reagent707@gmail.com

110 USD /KG 98% NACLO4 Monohydrate

isn't that very expensive?

Bert - 8-8-2016 at 05:53

Yes, about 25 times what I would consider reasonable for this as a technical grade chemical. The problem being, most of the production of this goes straight to industrial uses, often in the same plant it was made in. So no cheap, tech grade in small ammounts on offer at resellers as with Potassium or ammonium perchlorates.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 8-8-2016 at 10:29

110 USD is very expensive. Because titan anode 5 x 7,5 cm , coated platinum is price on e-bay 75 USD. Or less, at details looking for. Even 60 USD for 2 piece. I estimate, that 98% purity NaClO4, amount 1 Kg is possible prepared
with one this anode. Maybe even more, before partially damage platinum coated the surface. How much NaClO4 is possible prepare, it is question for experienced galvanic experts... :cool:

...LL

energeticone - 8-8-2016 at 15:35

Quote: Originally posted by Bert

Yes, about 25 times what I would consider reasonable for this as a technical grade chemical. The problem being, most of the production of this goes straight to industrial uses, often in the same plant it was made in. So no cheap, tech grade in small ammounts on offer at resellers as with Potassium or ammonium perchlorates.

Then point others with a link in the right direction in Continental US. It doesnt exist

energeticone - 8-8-2016 at 15:36

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

110 USD is very expensive. Because titan anode 5 x 7,5 cm , coated platinum is price on e-bay 75 USD. Or less, at details looking for. Even 60 USD for 2 piece. I estimate, that 98% purity NaClO4, amount 1 Kg is possible prepared
with one this anode. Maybe even more, before partially damage platinum coated the surface. How much NaClO4 is possible prepare, it is question for experienced galvanic experts... :cool:

...LL

...Good luck finding a supplier in the Continental US ...

ecos - 12-8-2016 at 05:19

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

...LL

forget about Platinum anode since it will be destroyed for Perchlorate.
My advice, Use Graphite Substrate Lead Dioxide anode. it only costs 60 dollors and will make a lot of NaCl4

jpsmith123 - 30-8-2016 at 15:39

Those two youtube videos are "unavailable".

I wonder, what was the composition used? Was it NaClO4 and diethylene glycol?

Laboratory of Liptakov - 31-8-2016 at 05:14

NaClO4 75 + DEG 25 + Water 5 - 15 + optional item: guar gum 1, Al 2 - 5. Dr.

yobbo II - 31-8-2016 at 15:39

Since Sodium Perchlorate has a number of hydrates this will need to be noted if yields are being weighed and calculated. Which hydrate forms depends on the solution concentration and temperature as your product crystallizes. The usually hydrate that forms (between zero and 50°C) is the mono-hydrate. This mono-hydrate must be heated to 60°C to obtain NaCl04:0.8H2O. It must then be heated above 150°C to obtain anhydrous Sodium Perchlorate. Melting takes place at 472°C and decomposition starts at 490°C and ends at 520°C. (Reactivity of Solids 3 (1987) 75-84)

Microtek - 2-9-2016 at 04:03

NaClO4 production via PbO2 coated titanium anodes is actually surprisingly easy, it just takes a long time. As my first ever foray into electrochemistry (which I don't like) I made 200 g of NaClO4 of reasonably high purity using such an anode along with a workshop charger. I electrolysed a solution of NaCl for about 5 days only regulating temp and pH occasionally.
At the end, the small amount of NaClO3 was destroyed by addition of HCl of the highest concentration possible. Since NaCl is insoluble in highly concentrated HCl, you can then decant the perchloric acid.

DrManhattan - 29-10-2016 at 19:36

I recently made a slurry composition containing by weight: 70% Sodium Chlorate
9% H2O
20% 200 mesh aluminium powder
1% guar gum

Charge was 1kg Detonated with a no.8 blasting cap with 10g ETN booster.
Performance was impressive considering the ease of manufacture and availability of chemicals. Id compare it to anfo in power.

Metacelsus - 29-10-2016 at 19:53

Storage stability might be an issue with that composition, so you should store the components unmixed.

jpsmith123 - 29-10-2016 at 20:24

IIRC there is a patent from the 60s (Melvin Cook et al.) regarding sodium chlorate based blasting agents using various fuels such as ethylene glycol, methanol, ethanol and isopropanol.
Unfortunately the patent didn't go into much detail regarding the performance.

DrManhattan - 29-10-2016 at 21:22

Would storage stability problems arise from the fact that the composition contains aluminium and water? Or am i overlooking something. Id like to find a way to make it storable.
I came across a page which detailed a few compositions of Sodium Perchlorate mixtures that might be interesting given their stated VOD of 5800-7010 m/s.

Composition #1
67% sodium perchlorate, 33% matrix.
matrix:
Diethylene Glycol 75%
Water 10%
Calcium Nitrate 12.4%
Guar Gum 2.5%
Glacial Acetic Acid 0.1%

Composition #2
60% sodium perchlorate, 40% matrix.
matrix:
61% Aqueous Sodium Perchlorate Solution 30%
Calcium Nitrate 10%
Diethylene Glycol 57%
Guar Gum 2.9%
Glacial Acetic Acid .1%

Composition #3
65% sodium perchlorate, 35% matrix.
matrix:
61% Aqueous Sodium Perchlorate Solution 20%
Calcium Nitrate 10%
Diethylene Glycol 67%
Guar Gum 3%
Glacial Acetic Acid .1%

Composition #4
62% dry sodium perchlorate and 38% matrix.
Matrix:
61% Aqueous Solution of Sodium Perchlorate 25%
Diethylene Glycol 73%
Guar Gum 2%

Composition #5
68% sodium perchlorate 32% matrix.
Matrix:
Diethylene Glycol 74%
Water 11%
Calcium Nitrate 12%
Guar Gum 2%
Glacial Acetic Acid 1%

Composition #6
64.5% sodium perchlorate, 28% matrix.
Matrix:
Diethylene Glycol 84%
Water 12.5%
Guar Gum 2.4%
Glacial Acetic Acid 1.1%

Composition #7
58 sodium perchlorate, 32% matrix.
Matrix:
Diethylene Glycol 75%
Water 11.5%
Calcium Nitrate 13.5%

Composition #8
55% sodium perchlorate, 45% matrix.
matrix:
61% Aqueous Sodium Perchlorate Solution 35%
Calcium Nitrate 10%
Diethylene Glycol 53.5%
Guar Gum 1.5%

"The detonation velocity i listed must have been for all the explosive compositions. So the velocity of these compositions ranges from 5800-7010 m/s according to the patent. Not just potassium perchlorate and sodium perchlorate can be used, but most inorganic chlorate or perchlorate salts. Some are more sensitive than others though. 1 lb charges of composition 1 and 2 shattered a 3/4" steel plate and the rest of the compositions blasted holes in the plate."

Laboratory of Liptakov - 2-11-2016 at 13:50

I seems that would Alfred Nobel pretty looking on it..
This composition are same power as dynamite 60%. However without dangerous nitroglycerin. Maybe is possible say, that only hygroscopicity is problem for this mixtures. But it is only one disadvantage. All others properties are better. If you making from this composition dynamite shape and wrapped in aluminium foil is problem almost nothing. And if is the air around pretty dry, under 50%, is it all better than the dynamite. Produce NaClO4 should be easily than produce HNO3 + H2SO4 + nitration + neutralisation process.
PS: Mixtures with Al, this type, are stabbile only 24 hrs. Arises Hydrogen.

[Edited on 2-11-2016 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

[Edited on 3-11-2016 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

Camroc37 - 2-11-2016 at 19:16

Quote: Originally posted by MadHatter

Sounds similar to what this thread is describing. One mixture, called rackarock, is made with
potassium chlorate and mononitrobenzene. It was used in New York City to blast out the
Hell Gate Channel on the East River. Right now, I can't find any VODs on this mixture.

Here's a good demonstration
https://vimeo.com/184011174

DrManhattan - 2-11-2016 at 23:46

Excellent video. Thanks for the link, it was a shame when explosiopedia's channel was removed from youtube but its good to see that he's active on vimeo. As for these mixtures containing Aluminium only being stable for 24 hrs due to the production of hydrogen, couldn't you add boric acid to reduce it? I believe many explosives use boric acid for exactly this reason.

PHILOU Zrealone - 3-11-2016 at 07:14

One could also:
1°)coat the Al dust with HE NC lacker (collodion) and dry...to avoid direct contact of reactive Al with water...the NC would contribute to the explosive effect.
2°)use perchlorates that are more soluble into organic solvents to avoid water presence.
3°)use solvents or solvaters that dissolves better oxo-salts into organic solvents (quaternary ammonium, crown ethers, cryptants, ...)
4°)Find a composition with concentrated HNO3 that is storage compatible/safe with fuels...
Al is passivated into concentrated HNO3...but unknown is what happens when NaClO4 or other perchlorates are present aswel?

Laboratory of Liptakov - 3-11-2016 at 08:05

The international situation is very serious. For this reason videos containing energetic materials, and their preparation was be deleted.
Dr. Liptakov

PHILOU Zrealone - 3-11-2016 at 10:07

@L-Liptakov,
Today I just had the time to watch your two videos on vimeo about Kidonite, a few minutes later they were deleted :mad:

...only remains your fuel C and minium videos (found by searching via Alfred Liptakov).

The Vimeo Sprengel was stil in action...but for how long?

C6(NO2)5CH2CH(CH3)N(NO2)2 - 19-2-2019 at 16:13

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

NaClO4 75 + DEG 25 + Water 5 - 15 + optional item: guar gum 1, Al 2 - 5. Dr.

I am curious, do you remember if the perchlorate completely dissolved? or were there grains of NaClO4 in the composition after mixing? Also, do you know how fine the aluminum powder was? Thank you.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 19-2-2019 at 22:31

Of course, was tested yesterday. With a new NaClO4 from acetone separation process. Free available patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US5665935
...... :cool:

...LL
https://patents.google.com/patent/US5880399A/en

[Edited on 20-2-2019 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

Hey Buddy - 8-11-2023 at 17:46

Has anyone had success with the compositions outside of NaClO4? I made two attempts, first used KClO4 in DOT 3 matrix with water and NaNO3 guar gum glacial acetic. Second one was embodiment 12 but with NH4ClO4/NaNO3. Interestingly, KClO4 dissolved into solution better than NH4ClO4. Neither one of my attempts set hard after 24 hrs. Patent claims they should begin setting within a few hours at ambient temp. I mixed them with a paddle stirrer and attempted to follow the detailed description in patent as closely as possible... Sort of scratching my head.

It would be great to get it to set. There is some fluid separation at top of casts and they are getting more firm, very slowly, but nowhere near the speed claimed in patent. Id like to figure out which one cures hard then attempt to add some NQ dissolved in DMSO to pump up the numbers a little for cheap.

EF2000 - 8-11-2023 at 21:58

You can try adding acrylic paint.

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

Unfortunately, using calcium nitrate in composition was not tested. Is possible that acetic acid catalyse better properties of guar gum as binder.
But also not tested. Measurement in cavity showing density 1.6 g/cc. Not 1.7. Composition is castable at 80 C without guar gum. Repeatedly. Composition, respectively his surface is partially hygroscopic. It was observed. Ferocene was not tested. Yes, was tested different acrylic pigment colors. Yellow, red, green, orange. Interest: This dry (any color) acrylic pigment create
with NH4ClO4 pretty explosive mixture at ratio AP 75 / color 25. Without change of nice color of pigment.
https://www.google.com/search?q=pigment+to+wall+color+paint&...
Maybe colors works as catalyseur of shockwave. (no confirmed, no measured)
But confirmed is better binding effect with acrylic colors. (acryl is binder itself)
Yes, different colors is possible use as identificator.
Else composition can looks: NaClO4 75, DEG 25, liquid pigment (red from link) 11, dH2O 4, guar gum 1. In of part by weight. 20g sensitive on No.8, confirmed.

[Edited on 10-1-2023 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 9-11-2023 at 02:56

NaClO4 75 + DEG 25 is the basis of success. Other mixtures are a lottery bet only. And this despite the fact that they are mentioned in the patents as functional variations.... :cool:

pjig - 17-12-2023 at 11:02

Gotta ask , has there been any success with the original self curing comp? Many attempts have been done with the ammonium perchlorate, and a simi waxy hard product started to form, but never heated or cured to a firm cast like the patent claims . Wondering if the secret it in the sodium perchlorate. It’s affinity for water seems like a better candidate for dehydration of the cast , further pushing the nitrate matrix to accelerate the reaction. To my understanding the finished cast was to be very firm sort of waxy , but not crumbling .
The golden egg is a stable , storable , primer cap sensitive comp/cast.
Ammonium salts where not to this standard, and not cap sensitive.

Hey Buddy - 19-12-2023 at 22:38

I assume NaClO4 is necessary. I still have a sample of KClO4 and NH4ClO4 comp curing but Ive detected no change in a month. At some point after testing cure I will try to detonate them in wet state.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 3-1-2024 at 07:30

The key of reactivity NaClO4 +fuel is his a huge solubility in water 209g in 100g H2O at 25C.
Solubility KClO4 is 1.5g in 100g H2O at 25C. (140x less)
Solubility NH4ClO4 is 21g in 100g H2O at 25C. ( 10x less)

pjig - 13-1-2024 at 21:46

So the lack of soluble oxidizer in solution is the issue. It seems that the answer is the most soluble oxidizing salt. I kinda figured that was was mostly the issue. I wonder if there is a way to utilize ammonium perchlorate in this function. Also the ammonium perchlorate needs to be dried prior to adding to the matrix to get accurate weights . The patent claims to use AP as a replacement oxidizer for sodium perchlorate. I’d like to see success with both. A self vulcanizing effect that can dehydrate and solidify the comp to a #8 cap detonatable material, w/ o use of sensitizing metals etc.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 14-1-2024 at 01:19

The functional mixture, which is the core of patent and works reliably, is almost always supplemented with 10 other variants and additions of various substances with which the patented mixture hardly (or at all) no longer works. This is for copyright protection. I will give an example: Man 1) Ha...!..I claim a patent for a mixture of NaClO4 + DEG in a ratio of 75:25.
Man 2) Ha...!...I use a mixture NaClO4 + DEG 74: 26 and added 5% NH4ClO4 to it. Your patent does not apply to my mixture..!
And this my a new formula mixture works pretty well too..!

In short: Avoid bullshit and gravy when studying patents.... :cool:

.......(at this composition you never use Alu powder. Instantly arises small bubbles of hydrogen)

Laboratory of Liptakov - 14-1-2024 at 13:25

Due to the questions surrounding the high-performance NaClO4 + DEG mixture, I am attaching pictures. Only 3 substances need to be used for a successful composition. 1) Relatively pure NaClO4. (not NH4ClO4, not KClO4, no other salt)
2) Diethylene glycol - DEG - (not EG, not TEG, not alcohol, not gasoline, not glycerin)
3) liquid acrylic pigment, US 19.90 https://www.ebay.com/itm/353790837663?epid=7052387860&ha... is used to add color to the wall painting in the apartment. Use green. 10 parts by weight. So 75 + 25 +10. (do not add more water, guar gum, aluminum, or donkey shit and dried bumblebees)
Procedure: put the 3 components in a closable jar and mix at 20 C. Close and heat in a water bath to 50 C. Open and mix thoroughly, repeatedly. Keep at 40 - 60 C for 5 minutes. Allow to cool to 20 C. A thick, but partially brittle paste will form, which can be easily filled into the cavity. See Fig. The mixture has a working name of Greenolite. When heated to 80 C, the mixture can be cast similarly to TNT.

In cavity by fig. is Greenolite senzitive on No.8. Mixture is partially hygroscopic.

dettoo456 - 14-1-2024 at 14:36

Would there be any way to substitute the DEG for a different polyhydric alcohol or alcohol polymer like polyethylene glycol or PVA? DEG is a little harder to get ahold of and hygroscopicity is one of the main drawbacks of the composition.

MineMan - 15-1-2024 at 01:34

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

Due to the questions surrounding the high-performance NaClO4 + DEG mixture, I am attaching pictures. Only 3 substances need to be used for a successful composition. 1) Relatively pure NaClO4. (not NH4ClO4, not KClO4, no other salt)
2) Diethylene glycol - DEG - (not EG, not TEG, not alcohol, not gasoline, not glycerin)
3) liquid acrylic pigment, US 19.90 https://www.ebay.com/itm/353790837663?epid=7052387860&ha... is used to add color to the wall painting in the apartment. Use green. 10 parts by weight. So 75 + 25 +10. (do not add more water, guar gum, aluminum, or donkey shit and dried bumblebees)
Procedure: put the 3 components in a closable jar and mix at 20 C. Close and heat in a water bath to 50 C. Open and mix thoroughly, repeatedly. Keep at 40 - 60 C for 5 minutes. Allow to cool to 20 C. A thick, but partially brittle paste will form, which can be easily filled into the cavity. See Fig. The mixture has a working name of Greenolite. When heated to 80 C, the mixture can be cast similarly to TNT.

In cavity by fig. is Greenolite senzitive on No.8. Mixture is partially hygroscopic.

lol. All true. But I can’t think how aluminum would not help. Or better yet decaborane

)

Laboratory of Liptakov - 15-1-2024 at 01:57

According to indications, some researchers fail to initiate energetic material based on perchlorate aqueous suspension. For this reason, a composition with as few variables as possible was described, which works reliably. Without aluminum, guar gum, glass microballoons and the like.... :cool:

Sir_Gawain - 15-1-2024 at 09:03

What’s the point of the green dye? Besides making it look nice, of course.

pjig - 15-1-2024 at 10:23

Not to beat a dead horse , but the original patent claimed a matrix that would react with the oxidizer to form a self curing / vulcanizing castable solid. Is there any success’s with that mix? (W/o) the horse shit and gravy misleading variations.
It’s a novel idea (priming mix out of otc materials. )
I understand that the base mix your describing is the functional one. And from the looks of it if heat cast , should perform close to the patents claims(6-7k)vod.
I guess circling back to the original claims, the lack of “heat casting” is the attractive thing. A self curing cast material via chemical reaction or dehydration causing a cross-link to increase density.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 16-1-2024 at 01:18

Quote: Originally posted by Sir_Gawain

What’s the point of the green dye? Besides making it look nice, of course.

This color as original manufacture concentration contents 91% H2O (very important for dissolving NaClO4) + catalyseurs + fuel, which replace partially guar gum and compounds, which increase sensitivity. It was examined in video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBLVo-u-XGM

Dry pigment + AP is burning basically without residuum... :cool:

EF2000 - 16-1-2024 at 01:56

Also, if les gendarmes come to visit you, you can always say that it's dried acrylic paint, absolutely honestly.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 16-1-2024 at 05:06

Quote: Originally posted by EF2000

Also, if les gendarmes come to visit you, you can always say that it's dried acrylic paint, absolutely honestly.

Of course, for entire years I only have colors of different densities and shades in stock. Nothing else......

pjig - 16-1-2024 at 08:32

I see in the video the use of Ap as the oxidizer. But your text above is saying naclo4( probably answering previous messages) but different from the original cast mix. Are these salts interchangeable with same weights ? (Greenolite) you claim in a prior text not using the AP for the cast mix… just clarifying…making sure I understand correctly

Laboratory of Liptakov - 16-1-2024 at 11:47

.....pjig.....in 0:25 - 0:30 is used NaClO4. Video is only demonstration of properties of dry color pigment.

pjig - 17-1-2024 at 08:15

Ok Ty for the info. Curious if any acrylic paint will work for this function, or does it need to be the fluorescent type you showed in previous text. I found some cheap acrylic I wonder if it is usable through this formulation.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 17-1-2024 at 14:08

Tested was only fluorescent type. Green, red, orange, yellow, blue. This types works.

pjig - 17-1-2024 at 19:28

So the paints function was a binder , fuel , and a colorant? If acrylic is the fuel , and another paint similar had approximately same h2o content, theoretically it could be interchangeable .

pjig - 1-3-2024 at 23:18

Forgive my pressing the matter….. I just am bugged by the “self vulcanizing composition “ . It is a incredibly simple but complex matrix chemical reaction that haunts my creative mind. I know it is a patent nightmare, misleading info. Etc but I’d like to find the gold at the end of the rainbow….. myth or not …. There has to be some simple cross linking science to back this up . A matrix that self vulcanizes to a solid detonatable material . Nitrate activated matrix that solidifies chemically to a primer capable material. Forgive my obsession…. It just irritates me can’t break down this patent

Laboratory of Liptakov - 2-3-2024 at 00:29

Paints content by important order: Water, senzitizer, binder, colorant. Activated matrix by nitrate for primary use is theory of future.

Mush - 9-3-2024 at 09:56

Quote: Originally posted by jpsmith123

Thanks for that interesting patent regarding methylamine perchlorate.

BTW, it seems the commercial sodium perchlorate explosive is called "Dynoseis".

According to the MSDS, the proportions are as follows:

Sodium Perchlorate (CAS 7601-89-0) 66 to 72%
Diethylene Glycol (CAS 111-46-6) 22 to 27%

I couldn't find any published performance specifications (at least in any Dyno Nobel literature) , but I did find some data from another company that supposedly tested it.
Density: 1.78 c/cc
Det. Velocity: 22,000 ft/sec
Det. Pressure: 200 Kbar
Gas Volume: 23.2 moles/kg

This is the reference:
High energy explosive for seismic methods
EP1307765B1
Note above patent mentions different composition .

Thirty-two sets of test explosions were done. Each set consisted of four test explosions, one test explosion with each of four different explosives. One of the four explosives used was a high energy melt cast explosive (HEMCE) in accordance with the present invention. The HEMCE consisted of 20 wt% aluminum particulate (average particle size about 20 microns) and 80 wt% of a first explosive material that comprised 30 wt% diethylene glycol and 70 wt% ammonium perchlorate. Other explosives tested included: Dynoseis (commercially available from Dyno Nobel), Dyno AP (commercially available from Dyno Nobel), and Iremite TX (commercially available from Dyno Nobel). Dynoseis and Dyno AP are explosives currently used in explosive seismic energy sources for petroleum and gas exploration. Dynoseis comprises 30 wt% diethylene glycol and 70 wt% ammonium perchlorate, but it does not comprise any oxidizable metal material. Dyno AP comprises ammonium perchlorate. Iremite TX is an emulsion explosive that has not been used in petroleum and gas exploration. It is an aluminum nitrate-based trenching explosive typically used in mining, and comprises about 8 wt% aluminum.

Dynoseis:30 wt% diethylene glycol and 70 wt% ammonium perchlorate
Detonation Velocity :6705 m/s

HEMCE: 20 wt% aluminum , 80 wt% of a first explosive material that comprised 30 wt% diethylene glycol and 70 wt% ammonium perchlorate
DV:5529 m/s

Dyno AP(according to its msds ,it does not containe ammonium perchlorate, patent stated otherwise):
Ammonium Nitrate 6484-52-2 60-80%
Sodium Nitrate 7631-99-4 10-18%
Aluminum 7429-90-5 0-15 %
Mineral Oil 64742-35-4 0-3 %
DV:4693 m/s , Unconfined @ 32 mm (1 1/4 in) diameter

IREMITE® TX. : no info found , phased out product or renamed

There is a need for improved seismic methods and geophysical survey systems that rely on explosive compo-sitions that convert a higher percentage of the potential energy in the explosive composition into seismic energy. There is also a need for improved methods and systems that efficiently generate low frequency seismic waves when needed.
Furthermore, it would be advantageous to be able to use shallower boreholes and less explosive to achieve the necessary level of data resolution for geophysical survey. US3496040 discloses a blasting composition comprising about 16-25 weight percent water, 42-55 weight percent ammonium nitrate, 10-20 weight percent aluminium particles, about 2-10 weight percent hexamethylenetetramine and sufficient water- soluble thickening agent to stabilise the composition against settling of solids. Not more than 2 percent of the aluminium particles are smaller than 50 mesh (US standard) size (ie, 297 ^m).

[Edited on 9-3-2024 by Mush]

pjig - 10-3-2024 at 08:26

That vod seems very high for the AP perchlorate /glycol 70-30 mix.
In same ball park as the Sodium perchlorate mix… (non aluminized)
Just curious if it is #8 sensitive or requires a big booster to push it …
Thank you for sharing that patent .
I’m assuming starting perchlorate is finely ground and dry to start with for proper weights , but may not be completely necessary,having a margin for water in the mix and particulate size of said perchlorate. (-200mesh or industry standard)