Sciencemadness Discussion Board

mixture that smokes in air

azaleaemerson - 8-6-2005 at 04:52

Does anyone know of a solid, liquid, or paste that smokes when exposed to air or humidity? It needs to be safe, so pyrophoric stuff does not count.

"Mystic Smoke" magic goo is supposed to just look like smoke as it spreads between your fingers. "Little Smoke" magic stuff actually smokes, but you have to rub your fingers together. I need something that smokes when the lid is opened. Any ideas?

Azalea

The_Davster - 8-6-2005 at 05:05

SnCl4(l)
Anhydrous tin(IV) chloride reacts with any moisture producing a white fog of HCl and SnO2. This is not pyrophoric, but it likely counts as dangerous to you. How will you use this? so we know what is safe for this application.

sparkgap - 8-6-2005 at 05:09

Fuming nitric acid, anhydrous aluminum chloride, most carboxylic and sulfonic acid chlorides, and bromine aren't pyrophoric, but they aren't safe either. :(

How about renting a smoke machine from a disco house or something?

sparky (~_~)

chemoleo - 8-6-2005 at 05:27

Solid carbon dioxide, dry ice.

Safe and easy (provided u don't start breathing right into it).

Dump the nuggets into hot water, and you got your smoke that vanished into thin air :)

cyclonite4 - 8-6-2005 at 05:33

Quote:
Originally posted by chemoleo
Solid carbon dioxide, dry ice.

Safe and easy (provided u don't start breathing right into it).

Dump the nuggets into hot water, and you got your smoke that vanished into thin air :)



Safe idea, but I don't think it suits his application, because it involves smoking upon opening a lid, not when immersing in hot water.

I've heard titanium tetrachloride (IIRC) smokes in air, but I think it would be virtually the same as tin (IV) chloride.

Perhaps if you used an airtight lid, you could place particles of finely-divided lightweight poweder of some sort, so that the force of opening the lid projects some of the contents out, although that probably wouldnt be any good.

sparkgap - 8-6-2005 at 05:33

Hey, I forgot about that, silly me. :D
That's what some smoke machines use.
Quote:

...safe and easy (provided you don't start breathing right into it).


...or handling it with bare hands for extended periods. :o

edit: yes, TiCl<sub>4</sub> generates smoke, but it's gaseous HCl. Not safe either, methinks.

sparky (~_~)

[Edited on 8-6-2005 by sparkgap]

Silentnite - 8-6-2005 at 05:54

If he uses the dry ice, then the smoke is going straight to the floor.

A little more info would be helpful.
Hopefully its not another ninja smokebomb idea...:P

garage chemist - 8-6-2005 at 08:33

Oleum smokes incredibly strong, but it instantly makes big black holes into every organic substance it touches.
The smoke, however, is only slightly irritating, contrary to what would be expected.

A bottle containing two small pieces of cotton, one soaked with conc. ammonia and the other soaked with conc. HCl would be the safest thing that smokes really strong.
NH3 (g) and HCl (g), given off from the solutions, combine to form solid ammonium chloride particles in the air.

I used this combination for experiments with a smoke ring launcher and it worked perfectly.

chemoleo - 8-6-2005 at 08:38

What's a smoke ring launcher? what sort of application?

PS agreed, NH3/HCl is a great combination, except of course the stink from any escaping NH3/HCl.
Unfortunately though this sort of smoke doesnt disappear quickly, while CO2 certainly does. As to smoke appearing when the lid is opened - I am sure a mechanism could be worked out that triggers the release of water onto CO2(s) as soon as the lid is removed.

[Edited on 8-6-2005 by chemoleo]

12AX7 - 8-6-2005 at 08:42

Smoke ring launcher is a cardboard box with a hole on one side and a diaphragm (usually plain cardboard, being well, cardboard...) opposite. Give it a tap, puff out goes a ring. Or there are similar but more complicated (IIRC) methods. None of which I've tried yet. For shame! :o

Tim

azaleaemerson - 8-6-2005 at 08:44

The application is for a bud of mine. He wants to do some sort of magic trick that something appears to burn in a jar or box, but doesn't. That's why the usual magic finger rub won't work. He came to me since he thinks I know chemistry, even though it's mostly self taught. Thanks for the ideas, I'll keep thinking too. If anything works good enough for him I'll let you guys know.

trilobite - 8-6-2005 at 08:53

TiCl4 + 2H2O ---> TiO2 + 4HCl

So it's titanium white that's produced too. HCl gas is colorless, but it has a tendency to form small drops with water which are indeed visible.

garage chemist - 8-6-2005 at 09:03

Smoke ring launcher:

http://amasci.com/amateur/vortgen.html

BTW, the rest of the page rocks, too.

I made a launcher from a large speaker, a PP sewer tube reduction piece and a peanut can with a hole in the bottom.

By discharging capacitors of varying sizes and voltages (0- 12V, 10- 1000 microfarad) through the speaker, different travelling speeds of the rings could be achieved, though the slow travelling ones looked much nicer, you could see how fast they were spinning and that they consisted of several layers which were spinning at different speeds.

By discharging a 10 microfarad cap charged to 350V through the speaker (larger caps worked not nearly as well), very powerful smoke rings were produced which were able to knock over cardboard targets at over 5 metres distance.

You could fill the smoke ring chamber with acetylene/oxygen mix and then shoot the rings at a candle! :cool:
Or at a smoking person? :D


Perhaps open another thread in "Miscellaneous" for this?

[Edited on 8-6-2005 by garage chemist]

trilobite - 8-6-2005 at 09:54

Quote:
You could fill the smoke ring chamber with acetylene/oxygen mix


Or maybe a few drops of ether?

[Edited on 8-6-2005 by trilobite]

Pyridinium - 9-6-2005 at 07:34

Quote:
Originally posted by garage chemist
You could fill the smoke ring chamber with acetylene/oxygen mix and then shoot the rings at a candle! :cool:
Or at a smoking person? :D


Then the C2H2/O2 mixture flashes back into the box and turns you and everyone nearby into a fine red mist. Great fun! :o

Some posters mentioned TiCl4 for a smoke generator. :o A little dangerous, no? Spill water on that stuff and you'll be hating life. Plus, what a waste of TiCl4.

Oh, while we're at it, why not generate phosphine to make smoke rings...:P ah, I know this is madscience.

I'd stick with the HCl/NH3 mixture, even though the ammonium chloride 'smoke' will leave white residue on everything. It does look pretty convincing as smoke.

Edit: sparkgap, I KNOW you guys are plenty aware of TiCl4 and its properties. I was more concerned that the casual reader, or the guy who asked the question, might not know what they're getting into. I know, I know, TiCl4 isn't exactly easy to get... but there was that story some years ago of a chemist who didn't need his TiCl4 anymore, so he donated it to a local school. They didn't know how to store it. It caused a nasty fire and HCl release.

Yeah I figured garage chemist was joking when I saw the bit about blowing the rings at a smoking person... :P

Edit 2: "HCl/ammonia, azalea's pal better be good at handling those".
I second that. Maybe they should just forget the smoke generator idea...



[Edited on 9-6-2005 by Pyridinium]

[Edited on 9-6-2005 by Pyridinium]

sparkgap - 9-6-2005 at 07:43

"...some posters mentioned TiCl<sub>4</sub> for a smoke generator. A little dangerous, no?"

Yes, it is. If you read our posts carefully, you'll see, however, that we are quite aware of how TiCl<sub>4</sub> reacts with water, thank you very much. :)

I believe garage chemist was just kidding about the acetylene. :P

Anyway, if simulating burning was what was intended, dry ice will definitely not cut it, because, as Silentnite mentions, the "smoke" says down. Clear giveaway of the trick.

HCl/ammonia, azalea's pal better be good at handling those...

sparky (~_~)

Scratch- - 9-6-2005 at 10:10

Something interesting might be shooting a puff of HCl at a puff of NH3.

12AX7 - 9-6-2005 at 10:32

Oh, that could be cooool. Now I'm going to HAVE to build one of these things...gee thanks :P

Tim

Twospoons - 9-6-2005 at 13:54

I've used the HCl /NH3 trick at my daughter's birthday party. Using dilute solutions still works, without being obnoxious. And it impresses the hell out of 7 yr olds when your hands start 'smoking' :D

Practical, easy, the wise mans path !

Lambda - 9-6-2005 at 14:11

EXELLENT !!!, easy, very practical, impressive, and the path that a man of wisedome has taken.
Quote:
After he had slighly oiled his hands in, he pored molten lead over his hands, the lead rolled of, leaving the man unharmd.


[Edited on 9-6-2005 by Lambda]

Twospoons - 9-6-2005 at 18:23

I was wearing latex gloves at the time ...

Lambda - 9-6-2005 at 18:26

My quote sugested using oil, oh well, then we were both protected !