Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Those of you who have been raided, do you know how the cops found you?

Those of you who have been raided, do you know how the cops found you?

Cou - 3-10-2014 at 13:42

Everyone is worried about the NSA monitoring internet activity, but it seems like most raids are caused by nosy neighbors calling the police or something like that. But has anyone actually been raided unexpectedly, because of the DEA monitoring their credit card purchases?

Everyone is freaking out about "OMIGOSH THE NSA CAN READ OUR TEXT MESSAGES, THEY ARE WATCHING ALL OF US, THEY CAN LISTEN TO OUR PHONE CONVERSATIONS" but I've never heard of anyone getting arrested out of the blue, because some nerd at an NSA office was looking through PRISM flagged messages and summoned a SWAT team. It's usually because of old-school someone telling the cops orally. There was someone who got arrested for google searching "pressure cooker" but that's because someone looked at their search history and called the cops.

You might say "Well if you're not making meth, you're not doing any thing illegal, so they won't arrest you" but it doesn't take much to get arrested for intent of making meth. I live in texas, and all you need to have in your house is nail polish (acetone) drain cleaner (sodium hydroxide) and HCl, H2SO4, or nitric acid. They WILL find a way to arrest you, convict you in court, and put you in jail for 4 years.

[Edited on 3-10-2014 by Cou]

BromicAcid - 3-10-2014 at 14:10

Never been raided, but...

I used to order from a pyro company called Skylighter, their offices were raided. My name was on the list of people that ordered from them. They used that list to go after people for potential illegal activities. In my case I had ordered perchlorates and aluminum powder. I received a letter from them saying that they had reason to believe I was making flash powder and that if I were doing that it would be against the law. Some people received more than a strongly worded letter. Not an example of the government agencies tracking your credit card but companies keep your records for years and years, essentially if you order the right combination of chemicals over time, and that company gets it's books examined then you could be put in the cross hairs years later.

Another time I had a meter reader notice an odd smell from my back yard. They called the cops. The cops never came into the back yard, they just talked to my grandmother at the door and left. It was after that I heard plenty of stories about meter readers getting bonuses for finding illegal activities.

Even though I don't do chemistry at home any more, I still worry since the system seems to be able to put one and zero together and still get two sometimes. Last week I had a note on my door saying that the quality of my wires for my cable service was poor and I needed to schedule an appointment immediately for a technician to come out. Within an hour of getting the notice I got a phone call pushing for me to get a technician out to my house and offering basically any time. I set something up for the next day (Sunday). On the surface it could be just an appointment but that thought is always in the back of my head that this is someone sent into my house who is able to look at everything around without a warrant. I spent about a half-hour making sure there was nothing even remotely interesting in my house. Because you honestly never know. Even though I don't practice chemistry at home I still have books on perchlorates, hydrazine, nitrocarbons, etc. And even though I don't think twice about them because they are just books some people are experts at making mountains out of mole hills so the books and other odds and ends were put up out of sight.

Basically, you never know who really might be keeping an eye on you.

phlogiston - 4-10-2014 at 14:26

The proverbial 'they' can't legally do much based solely on your internet search history and intelligence agencies will have bigger fish to catch than small hobbyists. If your internet history only raises a few flags indicating an interest in chemistry and other unusual hobbies/interests, they'll know about it but not care much. Order certain chemicals, especially in larger amounts, you become much more interesting. Be involved with a group that supports certain ideologies, you become the focus of their attention.

It isn't odd for someone who is a professional chemist to own books on chemistry. Most students will keep books from their education for occasional reference.

Polverone - 4-10-2014 at 16:20

I am passing along a "knock at the door" experience that one of our members had a few years ago, one that caused him to suspend his experimentation even though he didn't get in any trouble.

He had ordered mercury from someone who didn't know how to pack it very well. Nearly 10 kg were in the package and it leaked all over a UPS facility, causing a good deal of grief with the DOT and EPA. Since the package was addressed to him, he got a visit from a couple of special agents (he didn't say what agency), trying to figure out why he wanted a bunch of mercury in the first place. He had a well-equipped laboratory and a good explanation for the mercury order. There was no further trouble. I suspect that things were worse for the incompetent shipper.

Chemosynthesis - 4-10-2014 at 16:40

Most of the law enforcement contact posted on this forum does appear to be coincidental happenstance, however, there is a tactic called "parallel construction" that is known to be used by the DEA to obscure the source of their signals intelligence. Even federal judges and prosecutors have been lied to about the sources of data, in some instances. There is essentially no way to be sure of how many investigations, raids, etc. were truly initiated due to human intelligence, and no way to to be confident that only the DEA is doing this, as members here have known of BATFE raids on companies as well. Look into it.

edit: oh, and I do not mean this as a political statement, but I recommend looking into the substantial increase in "sneak and peaks" for drug related offenses under our current administration. Local law enforcement has had a general trend of decreased live fire exercises, and has shut down county/Sheriff task forces here on methamphetamine manufacture. Assuming there is no decrease in actual crime, this may place pressure on someone to prosecute, even if just for statistical politics.

[Edited on 5-10-2014 by Chemosynthesis]

roXefeller - 4-10-2014 at 17:33

The ATF told me I would have to contact the department of homeland security if I was needing to buy 400lbs of RDX with my license. I thought, WTF shouldn't DHS get concerned sooner than 400?

Chemosynthesis - 4-10-2014 at 17:48

Quote: Originally posted by roXefeller

The ATF told me I would have to contact the department of homeland security if I was needing to buy 400lbs of RDX with my license. I thought, WTF shouldn't DHS get concerned sooner than 400?

Might have been the result of a bureaucratic compromise. I doubt the DOJ wants to hand over any funding justifications they can keep to themselves. If 400lbs an order, or during a time period, is a small enough market share, it might have been deemed worthwhile to give up, since there is only so much funding from Congress to go around between them, in theory.

franklyn - 10-10-2014 at 02:57

Quote: Originally posted by Cou

Everyone is worried about the NSA monitoring internet activity , freaking out about " OMIGOSH THE NSA CAN READ OUR TEXT MESSAGES, THEY ARE WATCHING ALL OF US, THEY CAN LISTEN TO OUR PHONE CONVERSATIONS " but I've never heard of anyone getting arrested out of the blue , because some nerd at an NSA office was looking through PRISM flagged messages and summoned a SWAT team.

It's entirely posssible and can be any federal or state or local government agent even for hire private companies.
http://hotair.com/archives/2014/09/19/us-navy-spying-on-priv...
http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2014/09/15/court-challenges...
The lesson here is that excessive zeal and disregard for legal process derailed a criminal prosecution.
http://www.inquisitr.com/1483968/the-navy-illegally-searched...
http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2014/09/12/13-30077.pdf

Quote: Originally posted by Cou

You might say you're not doing any thing illegal , so they won't arrest you. They WILL find a way to arrest you , convict you in court , and put you in jail for 4 years.

You're more useful as a source of revenue to them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kEpZWGgJks
Civil Forfeiture
http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/forfeiture
Assorted links
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/search.php?token=&src...

.

hissingnoise - 17-10-2014 at 03:54

Quote:

You might say you're not doing any thing illegal , so they won't arrest you. They WILL find a way to arrest you , convict you in court , and put you in jail for 4 years.

These data are quite interesting . . . ?

From the BBC:

Incarceration rates in democracies (per 100,000)

United States - 707
Russia - 474
Ukraine - 209
Turkey - 188
Hungary - 186
Czech Republic - 157
United Kingdom - 148
Spain - 145
Portugal - 137
Australia - 133
Canada - 118

(Source: International Centre for Prison Studies, 2011-2013)

NOV:5 - 17-10-2014 at 18:55

The general trend is startling. The 1033 program is turning police into quasi-military gangs out to try out all their new gear. law enforcement in the United States in a larger threat to individual liberty than any meth cook or cocaine cartel could ever be. They will throw you in jail, take everything you own and destroy your life on a lie.
Drive to the auto auction in the next state with cash? Get pulled over, they'll just take it and you have to sue them to get it back

hissingnoise - 18-10-2014 at 04:10

Indeed, law enforcement in America looks increasingly like a huge criminal money-racket ─ successful and growing . . .

jock88 - 18-10-2014 at 12:01

A bit like the foreign wars that have been going on for a generation or so.

Thanatops1s - 1-12-2014 at 20:21

I haven't been able to have a lab or keep chemicals at home in years because I live in a big apartment building. However it really bothers me that people need to worry about dealing with things like this when they're doing nothing illegal and putting nobody in any danger.

Chemosynthesis - 7-12-2014 at 03:10

Quite a bit of the problem is just ignorance of how many chemicals are scrutinized due to the relative simplicity of many old school synthetic reactions. Just like the retired chemist (then self employed working on patent work in his home) who had his life upheaved for what was eventually dropped to a zoning law violation as determined by a woman with an associates in theater (qualified for chemical safety?). I can't find the actual victim/suspect's post where he clarified the matter, seeming to correct both the lead investigator and code enforcement person commenting in the thread on multiple statements, but here is a link to the code enforcement person talking about him "crossing a line somewhere" due to her interpretation of his "home occupation [as uncostomary.]" Uncustomary is a far cry from unsafe, or even illegal.
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/08/11/disharmonic-con...

This type of statement from someone who is likely far less capable of determining chemical safety or utility (not an insult, but just factual inference based on job duties and requirements) is particularly annoying:
"My advice is to stop watching Breaking Bad and get another hobby. Either that or pick different experiments to conduct at a different location. If you've got equipment and substances/precursors commonly used in making illegal drugs - plan on going to jail and, Later, arguing your case in front of a judge. Period."
http://www.realpolice.net/forums/archive/t-101560.html

I wish all law enforcement kept in mind that neither officer safety nor protecting and serving the public requires automatically jailing individuals based on "equipment and substances/precursors." There are things such as subpoenas for financial records, admittedly boring and expensive surveillance of activity at suspected drug dealers', forensic testing, limited investigative detention, (plain sight) knock&talk, etc. Of course, that kind of good police work costs money and is harder than, say sending a SWAT team to a house based on an anonymous tip, as a parallel example. It also doesn't allow you to boast of good arrest numbers (and as long as prosecution is dropped or conviction of some kind is had, doesn't hurt your DA's office on paper.)

Obviously we know that such circumstances quoted are not necessarily indicative of crime, though possibly quite suspicious depending on exact circumstances. It is possible to actually investigate suspects who don't have clear violations of the law prior to arresting them. Then again (and I know I am getting loose on my reading here),I suppose some of the synthetic and medicinal chemists, neuroscientists, lab technicians, as well as pharmacologists I have had the privilege of working with... people paid by various government resources to develop, produce and test drugs including scheduled narcotics, shouldn't be able to derive pleasure from an acclaimed fictional television show like Breaking Bad, according to some logic. Best not to have a an unapproved hobby in the United States either.

Sad how the disconnect shows when I speak with a very accomplished academic turned educational/research administrator and he laments the lack of chemical acumen and synthetic ability in much of the biomedical/translational research recruits he teaches and hires.
My speculation is that if we fail to hold people to high standards in school (such as 'hard' coursework in science), they won't be trained to hold high standards in much anything else... but back to the topic at hand, I did have two pertinent links on labs getting investigated. Maybe that counts for something.

[Edited on 7-12-2014 by Chemosynthesis]

Fantasma4500 - 8-12-2014 at 06:37

Yes.
first time they decided to bet that i had something illegal, and thus send me into a spiral of government in which they ended up profitting from, as in with credit
second time i managed to buy something that nearly broke their key word machine or whatever its called

slightly irrelevant: ive heard a guy in my country got away with driving in a car with 1kg amphetamine
it was done as simply as that he didnt own the car, and he said it wasnt his
the carowner neither recognized it and they had nothing on them

others than that i know one who just recently got busted, before i explained him to keep his hobby 100% to himself he managed to talk to someone living close to him which ended up snitching him and calling the cops for some reason as the fact that he made fireworks worried him

MrBlank1 - 10-12-2014 at 04:11

+1 parallel construction in my case I THINK ( It seems obvious to me, however I do have issues with perception ), source likely to be informant statement or net related. 4 and a half years of chemistry with no drama would imply the latter more likely, being the only change in said time frame.

NitratedKittens - 15-4-2015 at 13:54

What almost managed to break their keyword machine

Loptr - 15-4-2015 at 15:14

I think a good follow on to this thread would be what sorts of reagents, or combinations of reagents, would be what get you in trouble if you were raided. The reason I ask is there are many ways to any given substance of interest, so having more than one reagent around the house increases the chances you have something that is part of an illicit synthesis.

There are so many pathways that I feel you could unintentionally have the "ingredients" for something they might recognize, and try to construct a case around that, even if there wasn't intention or prior knowledge of the potential.

EDIT: For example, I attempted the TCCA route to chlorobenzene. I then wanted to attempt an Oxone/NaBr bromination of benzene to bromobenzene. While doing some research, I came across a PowerPoint for first responders, which clearly and boldly stated that bromobenzene is a PCP precursor. I was shocked and it freaked me out because I have no intention of making or using PCP. What are definite areas of OC at home to avoid?

[Edited on 15-4-2015 by Loptr]

Hawkguy - 15-4-2015 at 15:41

Quote: Originally posted by Loptr

I think a good follow on to this thread would be what sorts of reagents, or combinations of reagents, would be what get you in trouble if you were raided. The reason I ask is there are many ways to any given substance of interest, so having more than one reagent around the house increases the chances you have something that is part of an illicit synthesis.

There are so many pathways that I feel you could unintentionally have the "ingredients" for something they might recognize, and try to construct a case around that, even if there wasn't intention or prior knowledge of the potential.

EDIT: For example, I attempted the TCCA route to chlorobenzene. I then wanted to attempt an Oxone/NaBr bromination of benzene to bromobenzene. While doing some research, I came across a PowerPoint for first responders, which clearly and boldly stated that bromobenzene is a PCP precursor. I was shocked and it freaked me out because I have no intention of making or using PCP. What are definite areas of OC at home to avoid?

[Edited on 15-4-2015 by Loptr]

Well as per precursor reagents, I think its not just WHAT you have, but what combinations. For example, if you have 10g 1, 4 Benzoquinone, I can't imagine anyone caring. But if you also have a smidge of Safrole laying around, I would assume the consequences would be baaad. Anyhow, just for input, here a few things I might recommend avoiding, or at least retaining caution to. (This is all opinion, some of these could potentially be totally fine.)

- Acetic Anhydride
- 1, 4 - Benzoquinone
- Pseudophedrin (Its fine if you have it in med cabinet, just not in lab bottle or whatnot.)
- Palladium (II) Chloride (People near me have gotten into doo doo over that.)
- Safrole
- Eugenol
- Barium Hypophosphite or related salts/ acid.
- Pure Nitromethane
- Certain compounds involving Methyl, Fluorine, and Phosphorous.
- Ass loads of Ammonium or Potassium Nitrate

Other things I might be sketchy around if I was an officer:

- Isobutyl Alcohol
- Hydrazine compounds

Loptr - 15-4-2015 at 15:48

That is a good start.

I think we need sticky or even a "Guide to Science Madness" that covers various topics such as safety, storage, reagents, etc., with special interest given to staying within the confines of the law, and what should and shouldn't be done at home, in general.

It's also a catch-22, because in order to know about what not to buy, you must be up on topics within clandestine synthesis, which could look bad if they checked out your search history. lol.

Sulaiman - 15-4-2015 at 16:17

Since joining this forum my search history has become 'questionable'
but I consider it purely as an intellectual persuit so i'm not worried
(too lazy to do the required experiments and far too inexperienced)
but
putting up a list of 'what chemicals to avoid to look innocent' is a bad idea,

it may assist semi-literate 'bad' people
it would probably contain many chemicals that have 'legitimate' uses, thus demonising them
if the list became popular, possessing chemicals on the list would be a kind of admission of guilt for members.

Loptr - 15-4-2015 at 16:24

I am not talking very general reagents here, but things that would lead to trouble or conviction given a trial based on "intent". (In your case, does intent mean a search history? It's just so foggy.)

I am sure most of this information is already out there.

[Edited on 16-4-2015 by Loptr]

Morkva - 15-4-2015 at 17:39

I remember on an occasion I was going to board a airplane a woman... A woman with curly brown hair, perhaps in her forties and somewhat plump - not grotesquely, but if it's skinny (as an aside, if "skinny" seems inappropriate, the lesson of dinosaurs and microbes is that volume is x cubed; surface area is only x squared, so small indeed is skinny) versus plump, yes, it was noticeable... swabbed me with a pad of cotton. Now, I found it obvious why and what for, and, so unthinkingly, asked "what are you testing for?". Presumably nitro aromatics, right? I was wondering, I remember, if they had accounted for organic peroxides too, well... it's what all the kids... She answered with such gravity, that she could have been looking THROUGH my eyes, and I wouldn't have known it because of the voice.

"Explosives."

That gravity very nearly caused me to burst into laughter. The terrible consequences strangely increased the urge to do so. Maybe it's not absurd. I believe it is. But it is not to these so-called normal people.

They only know of explosives and drugs as the fruits of chemistry. The cream of the crop, which is to say, the majority of folks desiring intellectual stimulation, prefer the crossword in the Sunday newspaper. I'm being very mean. There are many people who would understand the idea of amateur chemistry, and many who, to be optimistic, do not, and/or are driven by fear for personal safety, and to protect their fellow man.

The most important message regarding the police that I can convey comes not from my own mouth, because, to my perpetual surprise I have met only decent ones, but from Al Pacino.

Al Pacino played the role of Frank Serpeco in a movie of that title. It understates the true story. My advice is watch it. (Or buy the real Frank's book, he's alive.)

Unethical people are drawn, by instinct, to positions of power and little oversight. My experience to the contrary does not, and will not, over rule that application of logic. The same might perhaps be said of the mythical NSA worker, cloaked as he is in absolute secrecy, and therefor having no accountability - but the very same secrecy necessitates that there is little mischief he can do, besides jacking off to a photo of your naked wife, or placing an occasional indecent, but cryptographically secure, phone call to your house... It's a concern.

Oh what penalties I will incur for saying this.

Returning to the subject of chemistry... I think what is required is humble educational films about the importance of chemistry every day in our lives, in every place. Woelen photographs beautiful demonstrations. But, on I Love Lucy, Lucy said about Ethel bragging

"... to hear her go on, you'd think she invented Penicillin!"

Then, it was a big deal! Who would laugh at that today? Antibiotics in all drugstores. Then, you could die of a scratch on the face! Not aware of that? That's what did Carnarvon in, and that composer too: shaving.

Polymers. I enjoyed reading Otto Vogl's autobiography. Still, one can only read so many autobiographies, so it would be preferable that YOU read one that I myself haven't. http://scholarworks.umass.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=12...

Fluorine Chemistry at the Millennium if you can find it, is also enjoyable. Chemists are interesting people.

I am working on a book deal involving to tell the story of synthetic organic chemists. It would be nice if some fraction of the time the population puts in abstract games like checkers and shooting ZOMBIES, could be spent on the puzzle of putting complex molecules together. I would have them pick something (Samponione? Phorbol?) and wonder, how to assemble that. Five minutes a day? Ten?

Oh, but I'm idealist. For the youtube quick video loving folks, a demonstration of the kind I mean:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaDJdHPykEA

It's not Oprah.

[Edited on 16-4-2015 by Morkva]

Chemosynthesis - 15-4-2015 at 18:08

Quote: Originally posted by Morkva

I was wondering, I remember, if they had accounted for organic peroxides too, well... it's what all the kids...

I hate to admit this openly online, but I doubt it was that sensitive yet.
http://www.asi-mag.com/detecting-improvised-homemade-explosi...

Only recently have screenings been able to accurately detect organic peroxides, and I doubt the infrastructure is widespread to detect them. Backscatter radiation scanners somehow got way more press, and likely funding.

Zombie - 15-4-2015 at 18:24

Quote: Originally posted by Morkva

Chemists are interesting people.

I am working on a book deal involving to tell the story of synthetic organic chemists. It would be nice if some fraction of the time the population puts in abstract games like checkers and shooting ZOMBIES, could be spent on the puzzle of putting complex molecules together. I would have them pick something (Samponione? Phorbol?) and wonder, how to assemble that. Five minutes a day? Ten?

[Edited on 16-4-2015 by Morkva]

Frankly, I could not agree more!

What we need is an N.A.A.Z.P...
A mind is a terrible thing to waste. (or is that from the UZCF)?

Chemosynthesis - 15-4-2015 at 18:26

^ Agreed. I tried to get a programmer friend of mine to make a sort of puzzle game that helped teach organic chemistry, but neither of us were sure how to proceed before our schedules diverged too radically to coordinate.

Loptr - 15-4-2015 at 18:33

Quote: Originally posted by Chemosynthesis

^ Agreed. I tried to get a programmer friend of mine to make a sort of puzzle game that helped teach organic chemistry, but neither of us were sure how to proceed before our schedules diverged too radically to coordinate.

Would you care to elaborate more on this puzzle concept?

learningChem - 17-4-2015 at 19:23

Quote:

These data are quite interesting . . . ?

From the BBC:

Incarceration rates in democracies (per 100,000)

United States - 707
Russia - 474

Yes. What wasn't mentioned is that the united states of americunt's incarceration rate is the highest in the world. Americans are their own sorry parody.

Chemosynthesis - 18-4-2015 at 15:31

Quote: Originally posted by Loptr

Quote: Originally posted by Chemosynthesis

Would you care to elaborate more on this puzzle concept?

Sure. If anyone wants to make this from any influence my post has, I would like to be involved in some capacity, ideally.

Anyway, I was thinking of using some form of bond-line notation or kekule structures. You have colored boxes to note functional groups with a training session, and slowly build on organic reactions with them. Ex. blue ketone group interacts with red Grignard. Show result in some fashion. You could initially show delta charges or something to make it easier, then add in additional functional groups to get confusing, and also put a time limit in. Maybe get some ideas from pre-professional school tests (MCAT, DAT, PCAT, VMAT, etc.) for starter questions.

aga - 28-6-2015 at 07:04

This a good example of how the police 'spying' on online purchases can be a Good thing, if the policing is done well.

As you were not doing anything untoward, they didn't haul you away to prison.

If you were running a drug factory, they, or the other two where were waiting around the back, would have found you.

Zombie - 28-6-2015 at 10:39

You all should be well aware that on line purchases are monitored.

Ebay is a treasure trove of morons. I would also recommend that you READ your Ebay user agreement...
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/user-agreement.html
"You consent to the disclosure of certain personally identifiable information, as well as listing and order information, by eBay to Pitney Bowes Inc., and by Pitney Bowes Inc. to its affiliates, service providers, and other third parties (such as customs and revenue authorities, as well as other government agencies),

Ebay has its own "watch list", and hands us over wholesale.

[Edited on 6-28-2015 by Zombie]

Magpie - 28-6-2015 at 12:44

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie

Ebay is a treasure trove of morons.

Which ones, the sellers or the buyers? For sure the administrators/owners are.

[Edited on 28-6-2015 by Magpie]

Zombie - 28-6-2015 at 13:58

Both!
People selling 10,000 pounds of Natural Bark Dye a week with 100 buyer reviews claiming "beautiful colors, It snowed for days".

Then you have the people buying a shovel, 2 bags of Lye, 100' of rope, ski mask, and a taser.

Ebay almost a moron magnet for both sides.

aga - 28-6-2015 at 14:51

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie

Ebay is a treasure trove of morons.

It can't be true ! I buy loads off ebay !

Oh. I get it now. Doh !

Does this mean i have to send back the M134 minigun as well as the 360,000 rounds of ammo (1 hours' worth) ?

Man, that's going to be a lot in postage, and fkucharlie14 and ammo4uyeah are going to give me negative buyer feedback.

Magpie - 28-6-2015 at 15:50

Quote: Originally posted by aga

Does this mean i have to send back the M134 minigun as well as the 360,000 rounds of ammo (1 hours' worth) ?

aga, are you in this video somewhere?

Attachment: sweet little guns.wmv (5.2MB)
This file has been downloaded 957 times

Zombie - 29-6-2015 at 00:32

God bless America! As long as we keep those church people separate.

[Edited on 6-29-2015 by Zombie]