Sciencemadness Discussion Board - AP production involving electrolysis?

AP production involving electrolysis?

halogen - 12-3-2005 at 19:20

If a mixture of H2O2 and acetone is electrolyzed, could it ield AP. I got the idea from a thread in detritus. Some kewl was asking about "electrolosis" and AP. I was wondering perhaps there could be some merit to the theory.
Is it interesting or so obviously stupid that I may get banned. I know, I know but the means of production may be interesting.
Have i gone crazy?

brakkie - 26-3-2005 at 11:15

I don't think it's possible. You'll need an acid to get the reaction going so that's one reason why it won't be possible.
Electricity will just break up H2O2 (I think) so there goes reason number 2. It won't get the Acetone and the H2O2 to react with eachother.

AND I don't think it would be practical/cheap and easy to electrolyze your mixture. Why just not stick with the old way with using HCl or Sulfuric Acid (not recommended) it works, it's cheap and it's practical.

KemiRockarFett - 26-3-2005 at 12:12

Quote:

Originally posted by halogen
If a mixture of H2O2 and acetone is electrolyzed, could it ield AP. I got the idea from a thread in detritus. Some kewl was asking about "electrolosis" and AP. I was wondering perhaps there could be some merit to the theory.
Is it interesting or so obviously stupid that I may get banned. I know, I know but the means of production may be interesting.
Have i gone crazy?

I may works if you electrolyse a mixture of aceton and sulfuric acid to get Caros Acid to form one of the acetonperoxides maybe the dimeric form.

cyclonite4 - 27-3-2005 at 05:06

I doubt it would work.

I don't know too much about electrochemistry, but seriously, why do so many think that electrolysis of a reactant mixture will miraculously yield the desired products?

Joeychemist - 27-3-2005 at 11:00

Even if it did work, do you guys really want to be making a primary explosive that is extremity sensitive and is most likely to be detonated by even a small amount of electrical stimulation or static electricity?

But as if it weren’t bad enough, you want to do this with H2O2 an oxidizer and acetone, a fuel. This is a stupid idea, I will not even address the other problems wrong with this thread and leave it at that.

brakkie - 28-3-2005 at 01:35

True Joeychemist. But there's one thing WET AP won't detonate that easily though...

cyclonite4 - 28-3-2005 at 01:43

Yes, true. But it doesn't completely prevent detonation.

And joeychemist also mentioned you have a fuel, and electricity. If an electrical discharge ignited the acetone, the heat produced will likely provide enough heat energy to the AP to initiate it anyways.

Wet AP may be more shock resistant, but it's resistance to heat is barely affected.

J_O_H_N_Q - 28-3-2005 at 20:59

I was under the impression that AP formation took place with peroxide radical formation as an intermediate step (just a guess) using the acid to provide the radicals. Would it not then be possible to perhaps generate the same radical by means of electrolysis?
Having said that, I know of no accepted mechanism for AP formation, and I too am extremely wary of using electricity around liquid potential low explosive mixtures.
Perhaps further investigation may be justified (althought damned if I'm gonna electrocute a potential AP mixture)

cyclonite4 - 29-3-2005 at 02:37

I believe megalomania's chem lab has a diagram of the reaction mechanism for AP.

brakkie - 30-3-2005 at 09:21

Quote:

Originally posted by cyclonite4
Yes, true. But it doesn't completely prevent detonation.

And joeychemist also mentioned you have a fuel, and electricity. If an electrical discharge ignited the acetone, the heat produced will likely provide enough heat energy to the AP to initiate it anyways.

Wet AP may be more shock resistant, but it's resistance to heat is barely affected.

That's true. But I don't think that acetone as a liqiud itself can be ignited with a small electrical charge. My guess is that it needs to be evaporated before you're able to ignite it with an electrical charge. But you're right you shouldn't go mess with electricity and fuels.

Might be test-worthy???

cyclonite4 - 31-3-2005 at 01:17

Anyone with a sheet of polycarbonate lying around feel free to try.

True that it would need to vapourise first, but some electrolysis reactions are exothermic right? Even AP formation is exothermic.

halogen - 31-3-2005 at 19:00

But since it isnt as fast a reaction (id asume) than the heat would be less. right?

cyclonite4 - 31-3-2005 at 22:15

That depends on reactant concentration, for one. (Namely peroxide concentration).

If you use high percentage peroxide, say 50%, thats calling for trouble, but something like 3-6% should be safe, especially with so much water in there.