Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Producing high % CO

Producing high % CO

Orsa - 1-12-2002 at 21:15

I need to get high levels of CO. I currently burn charcoal with air at 300 deg cel.

If i add pore oxygen O2 only what will happen?

Help

rikkitikkitavi - 1-12-2002 at 23:23

If you look at the equlibrium reaction

CO2 + C = 2 CO it is strongly shifted to the left at T < 600 C.

On the other hand , it is so strongly shifted to the right @ > 1000 C that the gases contain < 1 % CO2.

However , the reaction is endothermic, so in practise it is made like this.

Take a long steel tube and fill it with coal.
Ignite the coal at one end and inject air so the coal starts burning. This way there will be a zone where the coal is burning to CO2, and after that zone the hot CO2 will react with hot C according to above reaction. And once the CO is formed it doesnt shift back unless it is oxidized.

Out from the tube comes almost pure CO and N2.

You will of course need to experiment a bit with airflows, amount of coal e t c to get the highest yield of CO.

/rickard

PHILOU Zrealone - 25-2-2003 at 16:10

If I remember wel heating salts of formic acid and of oxalic acid dry in a flame provide CO!

2NaO2CH --> Na2O + 2CO + H2O (2NaOH + 2CO)
On the other hand...
CO + NaOH --> NaO2CH

NaO2C-CO2Na --> Na2O + CO2 + CO (Na2CO3 + CO)

PH Z

madscientist - 25-2-2003 at 17:55

PH Z, could you provide more details on that reaction you mentioned:

NaOH + CO ----> NaO2CH

Does it merely involve passing carbon monoxide over sodium hydroxide pellets, or is heat, or something else, necessary?

PHILOU Zrealone - 25-2-2003 at 18:21

Don't know if it works on dry pellets but a warm solution of concentrated NaOH fixes CO quite fast to make Na formate!You can imagine the first reaction to be the acid base reaction to get the salt!
C=O + H2O --> H-CO-OH

PH Z

DDTea - 25-2-2003 at 19:35

I think that one of the easiest ways would be to dehydrate Formic Acid with Concentrated Sulfuric Acid...

HCOOH + H2SO4 --> CO + H2SO4.H2O

From the book War Gases, the lab procedure is as follows...

Concentrated Sulfuric Acid is placed in a flask closed with a three-holed stopper. One of the holes carries a tap funnel, another a thermometer and the third a gas delivery tube. The flask is heated to 100*C. and industrial formic acid (About 98%) is allowed to flow in slowly while the temperature of the liquid is maintained at 100*C. From 175g Formic Acid, 100g Carbon Monoxide is obtained.

[Edited on 26-2-2003 by Samosa]

symboom - 8-5-2011 at 19:15

Carbon monoxide is conveniently produced in the laboratory by the dehydration of formic acid, for example with sulfuric acid. Another method is heating a mixture of powdered zinc metal and calcium carbonate, which releases CO and leaves behind zinc oxide and calcium oxide:

Zn + CaCO3 → ZnO + CaO + CO

Panache - 12-5-2011 at 05:36

apparently there's a gas heater in a very depressing household somewhere in country victoria that is a good source of CO.

subsecret - 22-8-2013 at 17:50

Could this amount of CO react with methanol to form acetic acid? I figured it might be a better way to produce the acetic acid as opposed to distilling a mixture of sodium acetate and sulfuric acid.

Gas Generator --> Gas Washing Bottle with methanol --> CO Absorption Device

Would this be a reasonable path to take for acetic acid?

Adas - 23-8-2013 at 01:12

Quote: Originally posted by Awesomeness

Could this amount of CO react with methanol to form acetic acid? I figured it might be a better way to produce the acetic acid as opposed to distilling a mixture of sodium acetate and sulfuric acid.

Gas Generator --> Gas Washing Bottle with methanol --> CO Absorption Device

Would this be a reasonable path to take for acetic acid?

You need a special catalyst for that.

UnintentionalChaos - 23-8-2013 at 07:11

Quote: Originally posted by Awesomeness

Yes, if you're an acetic acid producing plant. It is an important industrial synthetic route using precious metal catalysts and operating at pressure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto_process
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cativa_process

subsecret - 23-8-2013 at 13:18

So many of the seeming easy routes to organic compounds involve pretty complicated equipment. :mad:

[Edited on 23-8-2013 by Awesomeness]

12AX7 - 23-8-2013 at 22:32

Funny, years ago when I operated a metal melting furnace in the backyard, I once had a good fire going (hot coals, from real wood), then stoked it up with some fresh charcoal. As the charge heated up, a great, eerily blue flame was produced: obviously, CO burning as it left the furnace. The furnace was supplied air with a vacuum cleaner in reverse, so if you want a *lot* of CO, fast, well...

Tim

AJKOER - 3-10-2013 at 18:26

OK, if one needs CO for a reaction, I would consider the following sealed chamber approach. Mix Oxalic acid and Carbon and heat in the chamber to generate the required CO. Reactions and references:

1. Thermal decomposition of H2C2O4 (see http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jp9638191 ):

H2C2O4 ---> H2O + CO + CO2

Another source clearly indicates the need for H2SO4 and heating to 90 C to effect this reaction (see http://books.google.com/books?id=AugDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA759&a... ).

2. Reaction of Carbon heated to over 800 C with CO2 (see http://oxygen.atomistry.com/equilibrium_2co_co2_c.html ):

2CO ⇔ CO2 + C

3. Limit the reaction temperature to under 1500 C as (see http://oxygen.atomistry.com/equilibrium_co_h2o_co2_h2.html ):

CO + H2O ⇔ CO2 + H2

Caution: I believe there is limited explosion potential from heating H2C2O4 and C, but will not rule it out as Oxalic acid is, itself, a poor primary explosive. Interestingly, Urea on heating with H2C2O4 may explode (see http://books.google.com/books?id=4ewS-AqdCM0C&pg=PA803&a... ). However, employing Oxalic acid dihydrate ( H2C2O4.2H2O) may reduce the explosion hazard, in any event, based on my research.

[Edited on 4-10-2013 by AJKOER]