Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Rare earth metal video series

Brain&Force - 25-6-2014 at 13:50

Alright Sciencemadness, time to help a rare-earth nutter out...:P

I'm interested in doing a rare-earth metal video series, because so far, I haven't been able to find any good, extensive videos dealing their chemistry. Each of these videos will be 5 to 10 minutes long. However, this is the very first time I'll have ever made a video on YouTube, and I'm going to ask for funding on this once I have the details sorted out, because the rare earths are NOT cheap. (Okay, they're not THAT expensive, either, for reference, use the prices given here.) But I'll also need to get some other reagents that may be of interest, such as dipicolinic acid, antipyrine, and hydroiodic acid, for example.

So after that, I'll be needing a place to produce the videos. I'll be going to university this fall, and hopefully I'll be able to do stuff there. But if for some reason I can't use lab facilities, I'll have to figure out some place to do the video series.

I'll probably set aside funds to get a new camera that can shoot in 1080p for YouTube. And I need a new tripod anyway.

However, my biggest question is this: what elements should I cover? Ideally I want to cover at least 5 elements, so tell me what your top 5 are and why (because I'll try to include those ideas in the videos). For example, I was thinking:

Europium (multiple oxidation states, extreme reactivity, different colors of fluorescence [red and blue])
Terbium (green fluorescence, magnetic salts, fluorescence enhancements, I already have 2 grams)
Holmium (color changes, testing for complex formation, magnetic properties)
Dysprosium (fluorescence testing, a novel ferrofluid?)
Ytterbium (IR and green light emission in pyrotechnic compositions)

If I get more funding than anticipated, I'll cover more elements, do more complex experiments, and get more equipment.

Texium - 25-6-2014 at 14:03

Why not cover all of them eventually? ;)
Well, definitely start with terbium since you've already done a lot of stuff with it and already have it. Europium would be really interesting, but it also appears to be the most expensive. I think it's pretty much your call for which ones to do. To the uninitiated like me they just seem a bunch of almost identical dull grey metals. You probably know best on how to present them in an engaging way and display the unique properties of each of them. As you said yourself, you're the rare-earth nutter here!

Brain&Force - 25-6-2014 at 15:07

Quote: Originally posted by zts16  
Why not cover all of them eventually? ;)
Well, definitely start with terbium since you've already done a lot of stuff with it and already have it. Europium would be really interesting, but it also appears to be the most expensive. I think it's pretty much your call for which ones to do. To the uninitiated like me they just seem a bunch of almost identical dull grey metals. You probably know best on how to present them in an engaging way and display the unique properties of each of them. As you said yourself, you're the rare-earth nutter here!


I didn't say that, blogfast25 did!

Yeah the europium is RIDICULOUSLY expensive at Sigma. The problem is that I don't know how much I'll need materials wise - recycling of the products is almost certain. Perhaps thulium would be an interesting option, because many people call it a useless element, and I've read some sources that indicated blue fluorescence. So it may not be that useless.

Tdep - 26-6-2014 at 07:05

I like the idea, almost as much as I love wasting hours watching chemistry videos on Youtube...

I don't know much about the rare earths, but one thing I'd want a bit from these videos is not just talking about fluorescence? Don't get me wrong, I love it and it's amazing but I want to know other reasons to get excited about those elements as well... it seems whenever people talk about the rare earths they jump to fluorescence and I want to learn more about them than that :D

Then again, you'd win me over with blacklights and pretty colours too easy haha


I don't have anything to donate but I do feel your pain. My hope was to try and get a few videos popular enough so that ad revenue from Youtube would cover a significant cost of my lab/filming adventures. It's a tough plan to execute, and while i've made $60 from it these year, i'm going to buy $180 worth of stuff online soon and yeah. I can't budget.

but good luck with the funding :)

Brain&Force - 26-6-2014 at 09:57

One of the biggest reasons the rare earths are important is their magnetic properties - I'll be trying to make a ferrofluid with dysprosium compounds, if dysprosium is selected. Not to mention their narrow absorption bands and metallurgical properties. I'll also try some pyrotechnic compositions - ytterbium burns green, but also emits a lot of IR.

Texium - 26-6-2014 at 10:07

How about if you make a poll on here, to see which elements people want to see the most?

Brain&Force - 26-6-2014 at 17:31

I should have done that...but I don't want to doublepost here. I wish polls were allowed in this subforum!

There may not be any videos on certain elements (like lutetium) because there's nothing particularly special about their chemistry. Some of what I will be doing is original research (in fact, just today, I found touching terbium with a 9V battery is a great way to produce sparks), but most of the video ideas are what YOU want to see, which is why I need feedback! And funding. Lots of it.

gdflp - 26-6-2014 at 17:54

Just an idea, but if you want to do as many elements as you can, you could save money by buying the oxides instead of the pure metals and just show the properties of the compounds instead.

Brain&Force - 26-6-2014 at 18:08

Quote: Originally posted by gdflp  
Just an idea, but if you want to do as many elements as you can, you could save money by buying the oxides instead of the pure metals and just show the properties of the compounds instead.

I'm not sure where I would buy the oxides. I can by the metals on the cheap (relatively) here. Or on eBay. The metals themselves have their own interesting properties, though, especially those involving magnetism. But at the same time, so do their compounds...

MrHomeScientist - 27-6-2014 at 10:04

Being a fellow "rare earth enthusiast", I'd love to see such a video series! My vote would be neodymium, but then we'd be competing for who releases first :P I second the recommendation to start with terbium, since you have already done a lot of work with it. The fluorescent salts you've shown pictures of are beautiful. Neodymium (and some of the other REs I think) changes colors under different light sources, which would be awesome to show. Nurdrage made a video about a magnetic dysprosium salt, another cool thing to feature. Gadolinium has ther very interesting property of being strongly paramagnetic above 20C and changes to ferromagnetic below that temperature. So below the transition temperature, it should retain some magnetization while above that temperature it wouldn't. I haven't tried this on my sample of the element yet, but it sounds pretty neat. Cerium's ability to make lots of sparks (as in ferrocerium flints) is another neat trait of a rare earth element. Definitely lots of stuff to showcase in this series.

Also, I wouldn't bother using Sigma as a price reference. They are very expensive on a lot of reagents, plus you won't be able to order from them anyway.

Brain&Force - 27-6-2014 at 11:50

I tried getting some neodymium compounds out of magnet soup, but it never worked...if I cover neodymium, I would like to feature extraction from magnets, which you seem to know better than I do. Holmium also undergoes the same dramatic color changes, as well as erbium (to a lesser extent).

I might buy some samarium, gadolinium, dysprosium, holmium, erbium, and/or ytterbium soon (haven't made up my mind), mostly just for collecting, but I also want to see if I can get metal turnings from Metallium as well, because I've noticed that the rare earths are quite colorful when on fire:

http://www.youtube.com/user/MingLingChemcial/videos has videos of samarium, europium, holmium, erbium, thulium, and ytterbium burning - many of these reactions have been posted on YouTube for the first time, AFAIK.

Bezaleel - 9-7-2014 at 14:02

Here's another RENut. I don't really know what fascinates me about them. Their subtle colours definitely are part of my fascination. Would be nice to see their spectra compared, for example.

Neodymium and praseodymium are elements I've quite much experimented with. RE chemistry has its own peculiar challenges. I am currently crystallising PrCl3, which is drama. You need a dessicator, and water will easily remove under vacuum (I use 1 mBar), but the problem is that it tends to form a skin of crystals on top of the solution. Thus you'll need to open the desiccator, mix in the skin of crystals, re-vacuate, etc. Time consuming.

It is often claimed that the f-orbitals are not involved in the RE chemistry, but this is not 100% true. I am making Pr(OAc)3.H2O at the moment, because my earlier sample yielded a pale yellow salt, not a green one. The chloride, sulphate, sulphamate, and ammonium sulphate double salt all have the regular green colour, but the acetate seems to be different. Can't find any reference for this though. In order to be entirely sure, I'm now evaporating a solution of Pr(OAc)3 that I prepared carefully, and purified thoroughly. I wonder whether the pale yellow salt will form again. And what colour will its formiate then have?

Also, NdI3 (waterfree) is said to be green (Greenwood & Earnshaw), which necessarily means that here the f-orbitals do get involved as well. (As far as I understand, the colour of the RE is due to the f-orbitals transitions only and not due to transitions of the d-band electrons.)

I'm also a crystal lover. The most beautiful crystals I prepared so far out of RE elements is Er(OAc)3.4H2O. These are transparent as water, but with the subtle pink tinge Er salts have. Nd forms beautiful crystals with its sulphate.

Brain&Force - 9-7-2014 at 14:53

Only a few rare earth elements have d-electrons that participate in bonding (and if they do, they're lost in ionization); it's the f-electrons that produce the effects.

Crystal growing is a great idea. I'll try to see if I can grow large fluorescent crystals (terbium nitrate seems like a good option). I'll try making chlorides, bromides, sulfates, nitrates, acetates, and other salts.

Texium - 16-7-2014 at 05:57

Large fluorescent crystals? Can't get much better than that!
I hope you're successful with that. I can't wait to see what you come up with!

Brain&Force - 29-12-2014 at 11:17

Ok, I'll be getting some rare earth metals.

Dysprosium, holmium, and samarium top my list, but that can change by request. I have $180 to spend on any of them.

diddi - 29-12-2014 at 16:21

i have all the 5f as well as Sc, Y except Pm. I may be able to contribute some stills/video to your project.

nezza - 30-12-2014 at 00:35

I bought a rare earth set from "Metallium", a US supplier a few years back when they were not too expensive. It might be worth looking at their website to check current prices. I am sure they are cheaper than Sigma.. I also have a few videos/stills of rare earth reactions I would be willing to contribute.

Brain&Force - 30-12-2014 at 13:03

Already linked in the first post.

Thankfully, I may have found an even better supplier, who can provide 3N5 and 4N material for an even lower price!

[Edited on 30.12.2014 by Brain&Force]

blargish - 30-12-2014 at 14:08

Cerium seems to be a pretty cool candidate due to its pyrophoricity (when struck) and its IV oxidation state.

A quick Wikipedia search found a cool complex that forms when its trivalent oxide is dissolved in hot, concentrated nitric acid: hexanitratocerate(IV), which can then be used to create ammonium hexanitratocerate(IV), a bright orange solid that looks very similar to dichromates. This apparently is one of the strongest "shelf-stable" oxidizing agents. It also goes by the name of ceric ammonium nitrate.

That would be a cool compound to see :D. The rare earth metal video series sounds like a great idea! I'm not too familiar with them, and a video on each one going over their chemistry would be very informative

diddi - 30-12-2014 at 14:29

cerium is hard to buy due to shipping restrictions, I found. the wholesalers in china say "is very hurtful" or "plane get damage" and "cerium metal is easy explosion". my engrish is improving as I deal with them, luckily. :)

Brain&Force - 6-1-2015 at 20:05

I will be getting 15-20 g each of ytterbium, holmium, dysprosium, and gadolinium, and about 9 grams of samarium shards.

Tomorrow I have my first lab day! YAY! Wish me luck as I ask the professor if I can shoot some video in the lab in which I'm working. She's into chemical education and appears to be a really good professor, so I don't think I should have too much trouble.

On my video itinerary -

Me needs more ideas plz.

[Edited on 8.1.2015 by Brain&Force]

soniccd123 - 7-1-2015 at 22:15

I'm really excited to see this videos! Hope you can get lab access asap XDDD. Maybe you could also talk about separation of the constituents of mischmetal =D

diddi - 7-1-2015 at 22:28

you need a multimillion $ industrial setup to separate the REE constituents, that is why they are so expensive and mischmetal is the price of road gravel (especially if the purity is high (3N+) ) . you get what you pay for.