Sciencemadness Discussion Board - PLX type explosives

PLX type explosives

Axt - 18-12-2004 at 00:28

NM = 6210m/s in 15/16" glass tube (PATR 2700)
NM = 6350m/s (LLNL handbook)
PLX = 6165m/s in 15/16" glass tube (PATR 2700)
MEN-II = 5490m/s (LLNL Handbook)

PLX =
95% nitromethane
5% ethylenediamine

MEN-II =
72.2% nitromethane
23.4% methanol
4.4% ethylenediamine

No one knows the VOD of APAN/MEKPAN, but their explosive effect is considerably less then NM.

A lot of things sensitise NM, I wouldnt bother making ethylenediamine to form true PLX unless you need to know the exact properties of the explosive. For a bang, try using 30% of 70% HNO3, never fails.

Edit by Chemoleo: Removed useless posts.

[Edited on 25-8-2006 by chemoleo]

thnx

Hideki Matsumoto - 18-12-2004 at 00:29

I was thinking about using Ethylene glycol and HCl to make Ethylene chloride then making a diamine that way... hmm, just curious...

Axt - 18-12-2004 at 00:42

Im attaching a pdf on the mechanism for which amines sensitise nitromethane.

Attachment: Amine Sensitization in Shocked Nitromethane.pdf (161kB)
This file has been downloaded 3944 times

Macgyver - 19-12-2004 at 02:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Hideki Matsumoto
i am wondering how one makes ethylenediamine?
I am curious as to what it's det vol is in comparison to MEKPAN 9.1 or APAN....

It must not be ethylendiamine, works just as good with Tertiaryamines like what I believe is used as hardener in some two component epoxy glues....

About MEKPAN and APAN

Hideki Matsumoto - 21-12-2004 at 01:00

APAN has about 4500-5000m/s, I am not sure on this exactly.. I think this number can vary depending on what isomer is used. ...
Don't quote me on this but I think the Anhydrous Trimeric MEKP has more energy ( most of all MEKPs). Dvol is 6800-7000 m/s ballpark, but harder to set off in compairison to AP .. APAN .. .etc..
MEKPAN III is about 6500-6700 m/s...

right now I have abandoned MEKP synthesis and am working on DPPP which defently is the target peroxide everyone is after.. dvol for this is up around the 9000m/s mark... or so the patent says.. I beleive this though due to tests I have done..

[Edited on 21-12-2004 by Hideki Matsumoto]

searat - 21-12-2004 at 04:16

Try rogue science ftp, it has the syn

franklyn - 30-7-2006 at 00:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Axt

PLX =
95% nitromethane
5% ethylenediamine

MEN-II =
72.2% nitromethane
23.4% methanol
4.4% ethylenediamine

The presence of 5% of Ethylenediamine sensitizes the detonable balance

of 95% of nitromethane.

Ethylenediamine by itself is also detonable providing it is stressed,

by nitomethane or in concentration of as little as 3% with Methylene chloride.

There's a small mention of that here _

http://www.aps.anl.gov/Safety_and_Training/User_Safety/chems...

__________________________________________

I always believed P L X comprised a stoichiometric neutral acid base 1/3 ED , and 2/3 NM

like this _

CLICK FOR FULL SIZE

this yeilds 13 moles 4CO + 2N2 + 7H2

_______________________________

Material Safety research indicates that detonating NM may

require nothing more exotic than the inclusion of air bubbles

or voids in the liquid itsself, and that these render it

shock sensitized. See _

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:fIhytYmTKuQJ:ecb.jrc.it/...

[Edited on 31-7-2006 by franklyn]

P L X.jpg - 5kB

PLX Perfect explosive or what?

mfilip62 - 25-8-2006 at 12:45

Hello,

Can anybody tell me something more about PLX?
PLX or Picatinny Liquid Explosive, is a liquid binary explosive, a mixture of 95% nitromethane and 5% ethylene diamine. It is a slightly yellowish liquid. It was developed at Picatinny Arsenal during World War II for cleaning of minefields. It was to be mixed just before use.

I think it is perfect explosive for Shaped Charge(SC) and Explosively Formed Penetrator(EFP)!

Where cann i obtain chemicals?
Sensitivity(Primary or Secundary)?
VOD(I dont belive that it is actually around 9000 m/s!)?
denisty,risks....

Marsh - 25-8-2006 at 19:48

Quote:

Originally posted by mfilip62
Hello,

Can anybody tell me something more about PLX?
PLX or Picatinny Liquid Explosive, is a liquid binary explosive, a mixture of 95% nitromethane and 5% ethylene diamine. It is a slightly yellowish liquid. It was developed at Picatinny Arsenal during World War II for cleaning of minefields. It was to be mixed just before use.

I think it is perfect explosive for Shaped Charge(SC) and Explosively Formed Penetrator(EFP)!

Where cann i obtain chemicals?
Sensitivity(Primary or Secundary)?
VOD(I dont belive that it is actually around 9000 m/s!)?
denisty,risks....

What makes you make these "perfect" assumptions? I recommend you hang around and search, as it would appear most of this info is readily available.

Where the heck are you getting 9000m/s for PLX?

It is surely a secondary explosive, and I don't know why you didn't have the patience to get through the reading of post #1, but Vod's are already listed!

As for obtaining chemicals, no one here is going to willingly offer their chem suppliers to you with such weak efforts demonstrated.

[Edited on 26-8-2006 by Marsh]

mfilip62 - 26-8-2006 at 16:11

Sorry,
I just readed from some crapy source!
I know ith was nonsense,but...nothing my mistake.

I dont want you to tell me who is your supplier,becouse you are probably from USA and it does not use me,youst I want to know
is where is ethylene diamine used for!

Nitromethane based liquid explosives

Deceitful_Frank - 3-10-2006 at 02:11

Hey guys!

I havent had a great deal of spare time of late with work and family commitments but I think my next practical will probably involve two steel strips 37cmX29mm and 7.5mm thick.

Two plastic 140ml bottles, one filled with a balanced for CO2 and H2O mix of NM and 70% HNO3 (70:30 by mass?) at density of 1.21g/cc.

The other filled with a balanced for CO and H2O mix of NM and EGDN (62:38 by mass) at density 1.26g/cc.

The former charge would have a slightly lower mass but a greater heat output due to balance for CO2, however it is around 9% water by mass overall which would obviously sap some heat from the explosion.

The latter charge is of a slightly higher density and mass but a lower heat output due to balance for CO, However it would contain little or no water and give a "drier" detonation!

Both charges to be affixed to the steel plates and fired with my extremely powerful 0.8 gram 3500psi pressed ETN in 5/16 brass tube caps. All filmed on my new cheap and cheerful nv-gs27 DV cam!

Care to speculate on which charge would deform the metal the most or add further comments or suggestions?

Peace!

EDIT:

It would appear that I may have a problem with the validity of any results I may gain from this experiment.

The 70:30 mix of NM and 70% HNO3 I wanted to use for one of the charges does not appear to be balanced for CO2... or indeed CO for that matter! Its the ratio that Axt used in some of his shaped charges and I naively just assumed it was balanced for maximum energy output or brisance. Maybe it was formulated for sensitivity or a trade off between power and reliability. Maybe they were just random figures that seemed "about right".

Can anyone shed some light on this?

To balance for CO:

5CH3NO2 + HNO3 -----> 3N2 + 5CO + 8H2O

When using 70% HNO3 this equates to approx 77% NM and 23% acid. Obviously this minimizes water content but the density is disappointing at less than 1.2g/cc.

To balance for CO2:

5CH3NO2 + 3HNO3 ------> 4N2 + 5CO2 + 9H2O

When using 70% HNO3 this equates to approx 53% NM and 47% acid. This gives a better 1.26g/cc density, in fact on paper it is identical in this respect to the EGDN/NM charge but 14% water by mass and only just over half NM... would it even fire from 0.8 grams pressed ETN and if it did, how detrimental would that water be, not to mention whether the ingredients would even be miscible with that proportion of water!

There are just so many variables and I feel rather lost. Obviously with these 170-180 gram charges, either way I've got two very big bangs in the pipeline and the potential for some cracking video but I also want to learn soimething new from this experiment.

Whatever happens there will be one approx 180 gram EGDN/NM charge in one of the 140ml bottles balanced for CO and of density 1.26g/cc firing on a 7.5mm steel plate. The other is open to suggestions so if anyone can make sence of my dilema and put forward a suitable ratio of NM and 70% HNO3 that gives good density, power and a worthwhile test... please help!

[Edited on 3-10-2006 by Deceitful_Frank]

[Edited on 3-10-2006 by Deceitful_Frank]

[Edited on 3-10-2006 by Deceitful_Frank]

Rosco Bodine - 3-10-2006 at 12:30

Your witness plate is likely way overmatched by that
large of a charge , and probably a 30-50 ml charge would
give better indication .

You should try picric acid in nitromethane too , as unlike
the other mixtures , it should be perfectly stable and
relatively safe , a liquid that may be ~ 75% of dissolved picric acid IIRC , and should have cap sensitivity as
well as metal cutting brisance .

Bert - 5-10-2006 at 05:47

Has the solution of picric acid in nitromethane been tried? Do you have any data on the solubility of ammonium picrate in nitromethane?

Rosco Bodine - 5-10-2006 at 07:39

Yeah , according to the US Army it has been tested .

35ml of ~ 50:50 mixture blows a 7" diameter hole
through 1/2" steel plate .

The patent says that at room temperature a solution
containing 87.5% picric acid in nitromethane is possible .

It is very likely that such a solution would result in a
cap sensitive mixture when soaked into dried NH4NO3
or NH4ClO4 .

Attachment: US5140908 nitromethane and picric acid liquid explosive.pdf (159kB)
This file has been downloaded 1954 times

nitro-genes - 5-10-2006 at 10:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Rosco Bodine
It is very likely that such a solution would result in a
cap sensitive mixture when soaked into dried NH4NO3
or NH4ClO4 .

What would be the benefit of doing so, instead of using plain NM?!

ANNM in itself is sensitive enough and fires reliably from a #6 cap. The only value of the added picric acid to the NM is to increase the brisance, since PLX formulations are not very brisant alone. But if you just want to add it to alot of AP or AN the increased detonation pressure added by the TNP will be hardly noticed IMHO.

The mixture in the patent just looks like a PLX formulation with an added "bite". Other than that the acidity of the TNP might sensitize the mixture some more it looks to me that adding 50% of either PETN, ETN or TNT will have exactly the same effect. Not sure about their solubility in NM though...

[Edited on 5-10-2006 by nitro-genes]

Rosco Bodine - 5-10-2006 at 12:18

Mainly the benefit is the stability of the mixture , increased density , and a way to get a whole lot of picric acid liquified at relatively low temperature . It would have most value in my estimation as a means of introducing picric acid as a very fine dispersion in
a powdered explosive oxidizer , or possibly into some
melts , or water gels . And it does add some power and density to nitromethane . This is just a bit of information
which could be useful when consideration of mixtures
involving nitromethane is relevant .

Chris The Great - 6-10-2006 at 00:00

For some people nitromethane might be a real pain to get, and adding picric acid to it not only increases the power a decent amount and makes it safer, but they also find it cheaper and easier to make picric than distill nitromethane from model car fuel.

nitro-genes - 6-10-2006 at 04:12

The mixture of TNP with NM does look vey powerfull, estimated detonation pressures in the same range of cast TNT, but with all the benefits of a liquid explosive. My point was mainly that if you would make a highly brisant mixture like this, it would be such a waste to just pour it over some AN...

Rosco Bodine - 6-10-2006 at 06:32

Picric acid is much more sensitive to initiation than is NM
and it is likely to produce mixtures of increased sensitivity
and brisance , and increased density , as well as lowered
volatility over mixtures using NM alone or NM with xylene
for example as an extender . The combination of NM and picric acid in high proportion could be used for the sensitizing component for NH4NO3 or NH4ClO4 . When
heated slightly , an even more concentrated solution
of picric acid in NM may be possible than the 87.5% possible at room temperatrure , so the NM may be thought of as almost a " melting aid " for picric acid ,
in producing a mixture from which will crystallize some
of the picric acid during cooling . This could be useful
in creating mixtures with explosive oxidizers which are
blended warm , because when cooled there will be
dispersed crystals of picric acid trapped in the spaces
between the crystals of oxidizer , along with liquid which
is also a sensitizer . This system should be a more
sensitive and brisant mixture than usual kinepak type
mixtures where NM alone or NM plus xylene is used ,
possibly having substantially higher performance .

quicksilver - 6-10-2006 at 20:00

IIRC NM is hygroscopic. Would this have any effect on the stablity and / or proformance of the mix? Seeing as how the length of time required to obtain water from the air would also introduce an element of evaporation I suppose the point is moot; but still I am wondering if such a thing is an issue. With the KinePac material the NM is a sealed pouch, opened at the point of usage. This would seemingly demand the same proceedure and thus a Hell of a lot of mixing, no?

Rosco Bodine - 6-10-2006 at 22:54

It would probably not really require mixing at all .
Simply tap down the container to settle the crystals of the NH4NO3 or NH4ClO4 , and pour the liquid onto the material , where after sitting idle for a few minutes the effect would be like pouring water on a sponge .

In a one quart motor oil bottle or a gallon antifreeze jug ,
this composition would probably also be a reactive target . And it would very likely be storage stable in
a sealed container .

Deceitful_Frank - 6-10-2006 at 23:37

Yes, though with kinepak type compositions the partical size of the AN should be small enough to hold on to the liquid sensitizer but be large enough to allow a half decent density.

Sure, repeated activation and microscopic particle sizes do promote homogenuity but try getting this material over 1g/cc in the charge container by hand...

Ive found that by using purely AN and NM (no xylene) in a 4:1 ratio by mass (slightly O2+), and if the AN is baked just twice and ground well in a pestle, it just about holds onto the NM and in the following test I was easily able to acheive a dry, sensitive charge of 1.1g/cc density.

Its not the experiment I had planned as I couldnt lay my hands on the bottle of nitric acid but I think its an entertaining video all the same. Strangely, the Kinepak blew the 7.5mm thick witness plate into THREE peices... should have listened to Rosco! oh, and you also get to see my second ever failed detonation!

Enjoy:

http://media.putfile.com/Please-work-17

Its a 22 meg file that takes a few minutes to load so you will need to be patient :

[Edited on 7-10-2006 by Deceitful_Frank]

[Edited on 7-10-2006 by Deceitful_Frank]

MephistosMinion - 22-12-2007 at 18:19

Part B of 2 part epoxy works... Works well...

grndpndr - 29-6-2008 at 03:05

Quote:

Originally posted by nitro-genes
The mixture of TNP with NM does look vey powerfull, estimated detonation pressures in the same range of cast TNT, but with all the benefits of a liquid explosive. My point was mainly that if you would make a highly brisant mixture like this, it would be such a waste to just pour it over some AN...

I looked over the patent several times and I coudnt see any improvement using a mixture of TNP/NM up to the maximum NM content over a similar charge of TNP?As NM IS so difficult for most of us to obtain I failed to see the advntage in the witness plates and mix ratios over plain TNP?"estimated detonation pressures in the sAme range of cast TNT"? TNP has a higher VOD than TNT alone

[Edited on 29-6-2008 by grndpndr]

497 - 2-7-2008 at 01:09

Another possible high powered explosive solvent for picric acid is methyl nitrate. I don't know anything about the solubility, but MN is substantially more powerful and brisant than nitromethane and also easier to make than it is to get nitromethane for most of us. I know MN is a bit unstable, maybe the picric acid would help, or maybe the addition of a third compound to help the solubility and/or stability? It would surely have ungodly brisance.

And before anyone brings up MEKP, no TNP is not soluble in it, I've tried it. In fact a roughly 100g charge of about 1:2 MEKP/AP:TNP failed to detonate the TNP, simply covered the surrounding snow in yellow dust. It was only ignited by a fuse though.

Someone really needs to figure out an OTC synthesis of nitromethane...

Edit: Nitromethane can be synthesized with at least 60% yield from sodium nitrite and bicarbonate reacted for a few hours with excess methyl chloride (bromide, iodide). Doesn't look too hard, methyl halides shouldn't be too hard to synthesis and sodium nitrite is OTC. Methyl iodide boils at 42*C so the process could possibly be done near 1 atm. Nitromethane is supposedly not soluble in methyl halides so separation is simple. I'm thinking a pressure cooker could work well as a reaction vessel.

I doubt it Zinc. MEKP seems to be a very bad solvent for almost anything.

[Edited on 2-7-2008 by 497]

Zinc - 2-7-2008 at 01:41

Perhaps TNP could dissolve in MEKP if you use pure MEKP, as in MEKP/AP at 50:50 MEKP is already saturated with AP so it cant dissolve more things.

vulture - 2-7-2008 at 14:18

Be careful with methylhalides, very toxic stuff. Make sure you have a method for destroying them (especially methyliodide) during work up.

PHILOU Zrealone - 3-7-2008 at 07:48

Quote:

Originally posted by 497
Another possible high powered explosive solvent for picric acid is methyl nitrate. I don't know anything about the solubility, but MN is substantially more powerful and brisant than nitromethane and also easier to make than it is to get nitromethane for most of us. I know MN is a bit unstable, maybe the picric acid would help, or maybe the addition of a third compound to help the solubility and/or stability? It would surely have ungodly brisance.
[Edited on 2-7-2008 by 497]

Even if it would be fun to do, you would have the worst part of the two compounds...surely not something to store for long...
1°)Nitromethane is relatively resistant to TNP acidity but methyl nitrate is a sensitive ester...for sure some HONO2 will be set free and this is precisely the component that washing process try to get rid of and what is responsible of nitric ester decay and unstability --> mix is for sure prone to self heating and runnaway.
2°)TNP will sensitise methyl nitrate to metals leading to unsafe storage properties or excessive sensitivity

497 - 3-7-2008 at 17:59

I was afraid of that. And I suppose something neutral and stable like ammonium picrate would be insoluble...
Only way to know for sure would be to test..

A bit off topic, I was looking at hydroxylamine synthesis and wondered, what are the properties of hydroxylammonium picrate (I know it exists)? Also going a bit farther, I wonder what 3,4-diaminofurazan picrate would be like? Probably nothing outstanding, but it can't hurt to ask.

Sensitized nitroparaffin

Formatik - 7-8-2008 at 23:13

An interesting patent for this is USP3132060 various amines (propylene diamine, hydrazine, dimethylhydrazine, diaminotoluene, pyrrole, etc) are tested.

bonelesss - 31-8-2011 at 12:02

First, nice to be here again, it`s been almost 7 years or so!

I have that 2 part epoxy. B part is called hardener and it contains diethylenetriamine. It´s white glue like paste. I wonder if this could work with NM? My NM is 100%.
And i`ve been reading those old pdf-files witch i have and there was mentioned that aqueonous ammonia works too. I`m trying to get that in my hands. I think that is 24.5% or 28% if i get it. But i`ve been trying to find right percentages to sensitized NM. Are those same if you use aniline or ethylenediamine 5-6 %?
Sorry if it sounds stupid but it has been such a long time since i`ve been thinking about those things....

[Edited on 31-8-2011 by bonelesss]

VladimirLem - 1-9-2011 at 09:30

Quote: Originally posted by bonelesss

diethylenetriamine. It´s white glue like paste. I wonder if this could work with NM? My NM is 100%.

hi...

pure diethylenetriamine melts at 8C...take it into a freezer and see what happens...

btw, if you r able to make TNP, you can mix it - the TNP will dissolve into the NM and make it stronger (higher VoD and density)...mixing 30% of (70%)HNO3 into the pure NM will also make a strong LX

bonelesss - 2-9-2011 at 05:57

ok thx i test that freezer thing.

I have lots of NM but HNO3 is so hard to get and very expensive. Therefore i dreamed mix Aqueonous Ammonia to sensitize NM. I try save my HNO3 for making ETN.

Sorry my bad English it`s not my first language

[Edited on 2-9-2011 by bonelesss]

bonelesss - 16-9-2011 at 03:51

Ok I know you can sensitize NM with aqueous ammonia.But i failed to find right ratios. I´ve been search here, old E&W forum
pages,several pdf-files etc.

-some say use every 100ml NM 5-10ml ammonia
-if you have 5% ammonia use 1 litre for 1 litre NM
-niromethane liquid explosive pdf-file says one-half pint aqueous ammonia sensitize one gallon NM but not mention which % ammonia is.

I thought if my aqueous ammonia is 20% is 250ml per 1 liter NM right ratio?
I know you could use various amines such as diethylamine,triethylamine,ethylenediamine,aniline and so on
but i find place to get ammonia without questions or suspicious.

[Edited on 16-9-2011 by bonelesss]

[Edited on 16-9-2011 by bonelesss]

VladimirLem - 16-9-2011 at 06:58

Quote: Originally posted by bonelesss

Ok I now you can sensitize NM with aqueous ammonia.But i failed to find right ratios. I´ve been search here, old E&W forum
pages,several pdf-files etc.

-some say use every 100ml NM 5-10ml ammonia
-if you have 5% ammonia use 1 litre for 1 litre NM
-niromethane liquid explosive pdf-file says one-half pint aqueous ammonia sensitize one gallon NM but not mention which % ammonia is.

I thought if my aqueous ammonia is 20% is 250ml per 1 liter NM right ratio?
I now you could use various amines such as diethylamine,triethylamine,ethylenediamine,aniline and so on
but i find place to get ammonia without questions or suspicious.

oh boy...i wouldnt use ammonia-solution under 70%...

if you use 20% you got soo many h2o/other bullshit in your expensive NM, that the power/VOD will be very weak and it will become hard to ignite...

then, you better use gib a Cap or a booster and go for pure NM !

Dude, get Ammoniumnitrate and make ANNM - ists powerful enough for shaped charges , cheap and easy to handly...

bonelesss - 16-9-2011 at 07:30

I have experience of ANNM and i got AN and lots of NM,that´s why i would like to try test liquid explosives.And yes I know I could use HNO3 to sensitize NM but I need that HNO3 for different experiments.
Here it´s easier to get NM than AN.

[Edited on 16-9-2011 by bonelesss]

KemiRockarFett - 27-11-2011 at 08:28

Hexamethylentetraamine is possible to use as sensitizer, 3 % by volume with nitromethane:

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=Get...

As somebody wrote above that ethylendiamine is an explosive, no its not. Its not possibile to detonate any ordinary amines. They have to have the nitrogen bonded to a hetero like atom to be instable. --> NCl3 is the simplest example.

hissingnoise - 27-11-2011 at 08:59

Quote:

oh boy...i wouldnt use ammonia-solution under 70%...

Oh boy - where would you get ammonia solution with a concentration above 70% - or above 35% for that matter . . . ?

VladimirLem - 27-11-2011 at 12:36

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise

Quote:

oh boy...i wouldnt use ammonia-solution under 70%...

Oh boy - where would you get ammonia solution with a concentration above 70% - or above 35% for that matter . . . ?

oh snap

Uncle Hammer - 24-12-2011 at 09:40

I do hope that this is the right thread to inquire to. I used to have an account here but it was quite a few years ago and I have long since forgotten which email i used.

I wonder if i may get a little help relation to the subject above with two criteria in mind. Firstly, safety and secondly initiation sensitivity.

I recently met a fellow engineer who i would like to help. My expertise is Materials but back in the day when i was a young whipper snapper, energetic materials were a keen interest. Favorites mainly included one's that didn't give me a heart attack particularly TNP, but i also have some experience with organic peroxides HMTD, and HNM. A little too unforgiving tbh but i was young. I decided after attending a conference For the European federation for Explosive Engineers years back that it was a little too narrow for my liking, and my gala dinner table was comprised of coarse hillbilly halfwits . Disappointing, as it wasn't a reflection of rest of the people there many of which were lovely. Anyway this is getting long...

I said I would at least look into possibilities for his tree stump removal problems. He asked my opinion of how to use standard ANFO, to which i replied that he may have a little trouble with INITIATION. I have been attempting to recall some of my past interest. I thought firstly of guncottons, but i didn't like the idea of a non chemist, messing around with aqua fortis and the like. Then i thought of an old invention of a SSE by MERL, If i remember correctly. It was a site sensitized binary, very safe, half decent Det. Vel and totally safe until mixed, and of course cap sensitive. The formula was not for disclosure but i thought i bet it's it's a nitroparaffin based one.

I was thinking about how i might be able to safely suggest some possible comps for him. He has quite a bit of experience on his massive estate/farm with NG Dynamites, that he used to be able to buy (at silly cheap prices) but i wonder if any of my ideas could be analysed by some of you pro's?

I'm going to look into glass microballoons, gelatinizing agents (to stop them floating around NC lacquer???) and possible the use of primary, secondary or tertiary amines as sensitizers, possibly in the form of epoxy curing agents. Possible addition of AN. I'm not going to start fooling around unless I'm certain things are safe, the biggest problem i think will be insensitivity, I'm not sure what initiation systems he can get hold of . I'm not asking for spoon feeding I'm actually quite enjoying all the reading, but any SAFETY pointers would be great.

Please don't bark, and please don't say forget it, it's just patronizing. I'm not at all stupid, but it has been quite a while since my energetic mat days. A very Merry Christmas to you all and thanks in advance. xx

[Edited on 24-12-2011 by Uncle Hammer]

Bot0nist - 24-12-2011 at 10:34

Small scale tests are the best way to start, and a well made compound cap, containing a sensitive secondary like PETN or ETN will solve many insensitivity issues. There are a lot of threads here, and online information regarding amateur and industrial safety in the explosives field. The search engine is your friend. If your hell-bent on using cellulose nitrate as a bursting charge, a highly brisant booster may be needed. TNP would be a suitable choice. IIRC guncotton and even DBSP can be tricky to initiate properly without a large booster.

freedompyro - 24-12-2011 at 13:41

Some types of DBSP that contain 35% or higher Nitroglycerin can be initiated high order with as low as 250mg HMTD.

In fact, if you reload your ammo incorrectly with the wrong amount of or type of DBSP powder it's a well documented fact you can accidentally get it to detonate and ruin your gun.

[Edited on 24-12-2011 by freedompyro]

Uncle Hammer - 24-12-2011 at 15:08

Many thanks for the above posts. I think PETN and other nitric esters are a little too much work for him. I could do that myself to help him but really the essence of my post was optimization of a binary of sorts as i think the holding of explosives of the above calibre, let alone any synthesis defies the safety and ease of use goal i'm trying to help him with.

Any personal experience with the use of microballoons and/or amine bases as sensitizers or any other suggestions would be really helpful. In the mean time i shall use the search engine to draw on peeps with the air of explosive authority.

Axt, any pearls of wisdom?

NeonPulse - 6-7-2013 at 18:47

Quote: Originally posted by VladimirLem

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise

Quote:

oh boy...i wouldnt use ammonia-solution under 70%...

Oh boy - where would you get ammonia solution with a concentration above 70% - or above 35% for that matter . . . ?

oh snap

Perhaps smelling salts may be a viable source of strong ammonia. i think they contain ammonium hydroxide which could be usefull for this purpose.

Ral123 - 6-7-2013 at 23:10

Let's put a list of NM sensitizers:
I know WFNA works, also H2SO4, I've heard of hexamine. What's the problem of using plain NM? Isn't 40g TNP going to wake it up?

NeonPulse - 7-7-2013 at 17:37

EDA, aniline, also the part B of epoxy resin glue, Titan Bond or araldite super strength is satisfactory i have heard,and hexamine too - pretty much any amine. but they need a booster to have a decent result, why waste perfectly good nitric when there are so many other options. recently i tried a patent which uses aniline hydrochloride dissolved in minimal solvent and then into the nitromethane, it worked pretty well with etn booster itwas very brisant and made a pretty sharp kind of boom. i want to put some in a shaped charge and see how it goes.

Ral123 - 7-7-2013 at 22:19

I suspect NM/NA will generate about 10 times more pressure then NM with inert sensitizer and add 2000m/s.

NeonPulse - 8-7-2013 at 01:22

Quote: Originally posted by Ral123

I suspect NM/NA will generate about 10 times more pressure then NM with inert sensitizer and add 2000m/s.

any idea what the Vod of NM-NAthat is 70%NM-30%NA would be? How much higher than the plx mixtures?

gnitseretni - 8-7-2013 at 03:18

The 70/30 ratio of NM/NA is when you use 70% HNO3. How much would you use when using 90%+ concentrated HNO3?

SURT Tech. - 8-7-2013 at 03:45

Around 60/40.

Nitromethane Sensitizers

bb911gt4 - 10-1-2014 at 18:20

Hey guys,
I'm looking for ways to sensitize nitromethane. I'm aware of the amines and amine salts, but those are hazardous and hard to get ahold of. I'm also aware of aluminum powder and resin balloons.

Is there anything else I should look into. Citing references is appreciated.
Thanks

NeonPulse - 10-1-2014 at 19:41

Nitric acid has proved useful here a 70%nm 30%HNO3 mix is good, Giving a mixture about as sensitive as NG. there actually are a couple of other threads on this topic already,just search the site and you will likely come up with the answers you want. Any answers given here would just be going over what is detailed in the other threads. There's a lot of sensitisers out there some better than others.

Ral123 - 11-1-2014 at 02:04

If you're really desperate, H2SO4 sensitizes NM or ANNM.

Dany - 11-1-2014 at 02:51

ammonia is a good sensitizer for NM. the addition of 5-6% ammonia to NM transform NM to a cap sensitive explosive. a good review on nitrometane (application in shaped charge, discussion of sensitizers) can be foud here:

http://www.wydawnictwa.ipo.waw.pl/cejem/vol-9-1-2012/Shekhar...

Dany.

Ral123 - 11-1-2014 at 04:28

Speaking of witch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU3TIpoMQN4
So you can dissolve dry ammonia in NM? I've also heard of some dangerous addition of alkali basis to NM. If they can sensitize NM with ammonia, can I do it hydrazine hydrate?

gnitseretni - 11-1-2014 at 08:21

Thanks for that PDF Dany!

NeonPulse - 11-1-2014 at 15:40

Or there's one of mine that worked. In YouTube search for nitromethane/HNO3 shaped charge 115mls, that was a good application of NM in a shaped charge setup. And went well into the sledgehammer head that was the target. More sc videos are coming soon.

bb911gt4 - 12-1-2014 at 07:26

Thanks guys, does anyone know how stable the ammonia/nitromethane mixture is? Does it break down after a certain period of time?

dangerous amateur - 12-1-2014 at 09:07

The fastest Velocity in this decument mentions 5300m/s.
Not bad, but I rather save mine for ANNM.

I wonder if the advantage of the more even filling of the SC is worth the worse performance in general.

I wonder what "polyox" is supposed to be, Polyethylene glycole?

NM

Laboratory of Liptakov - 27-9-2014 at 12:21

Tested composition. Simple composition. No ammonium nitrate. Only Glass microballoons + aluminum (flakes leaves) + nitromethane + nitrocellulose:
nitromethane .......... 67
Al ............................... 20............ (10-25)
NC2 (12,4N) .............10..............(6 -12).......(or 13,1%N and more)
microballoons.............3..............(1 - 4)
No.8 cap sensitive. The composition works in a wide range of ratios.
LL

This makes # 2500 of my posts

franklyn - 27-9-2014 at 21:28

Strong bases that can induce Nitronate tautomerism such as organic Amines and anhydrous Alkali , because hydrated forms promote dissociation. Anything that will produce an ionic solution. Alkali and Alkaline hydrides and acetylides. Typically ~ 5 % ( 1 part in twenty ) of the whole charge as with PLX is sufficient. Soluble inorganic oxidizers , Sodium Nitrite should work well ( I think ). 6.1 parts by weight CH3NO2 to 6.9 parts NaNO2 is stoichiometric.
2 CH3NO2 + 2 NaNO2 => Na2O + 2 CO2 + 3 H2O + 2 N2

.

[Edited on 28-9-2014 by franklyn]

specialactivitieSK - 21-10-2014 at 10:44

Nitromethane detonator with 100 mg of Lead azide :

8,5 g Nitromethane
1,5 g hydrazine
or
1,0 g Hydrazine with 0,5 g Diethylenetriamine
____________________________________

Question :

How detonation velocity may have a mixture of composition :

Nitromethane with Picric acid and Morpholine as a sensitiser
( 51/44/6 )

Picric acid is highly soluble ( 87,5 % ) by weight at room temperature, in nitromethane.

Patent number : 5,140,908
Liquid Explosive With Initiator
http://www.google.com/patents/US5140908

[Edited on 21-10-2014 by specialactivitieSK]

[Edited on 21-10-2014 by specialactivitieSK]

forgotpassword - 21-10-2014 at 11:17

Here's a video in which he mixes Nitric Acid and Nitromethane.
http://vimeo.com/98873406

specialactivitieSK - 21-10-2014 at 12:11

100ml PLX
Main Charge: 100ml PLX Nitromethane/Diethylenetriamine
Detonator: 0.20g Lead Azide / 2.5g Smokeless Gunpowder

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=br-f1Ls9hZ0&list=UUJmTt3c...

[Edited on 21-10-2014 by specialactivitieSK]

PHILOU Zrealone - 23-10-2014 at 15:33

Quote: Originally posted by forgotpassword

Here's a video in which he mixes Nitric Acid and Nitromethane.
http://vimeo.com/98873406

If you read correctly the text inside the video, it is actually nitrobenzene and Red Fuming Nitric Acid (RFNA) (28/72 mix by weight a Sprengel's explosive called Hellhoffite).
There are many such mixes: All are relatively unstable and non storage advisable
NM/HNO3
Acetonitrile/HNO3
benzene/HNO3
Nitrobenzene/HNO3
MNT or DNT/HNO3
...

Sensitizers for NM...
Hydrazine
hydroxylamine
Ethylene diamine
Nitroglycerine
N2O4
concentrated H2O2

forgotpassword - 24-10-2014 at 13:04

Sorry man, just glanced over the text, at least I provided something remotely relevant.

You forgot liquid O2, I heard that sensitizes Nitrobenzene.

Melmoth - 31-10-2014 at 04:19

Has anyone got acces to the paper "Non-Solid Explosives for Shaped Charges. Part II" as mentioned in the document Dany posted?

Bert - 31-10-2014 at 07:27

Let's collect and merge a few redundant threads on NM sensitizers to reduce clutter-

specialactivitieSK - 2-11-2014 at 00:41

Triethylamine is applicable.
______

Triethylamine is prepared by the alkylation of ammonia with ethanol: NH3 + 3 C2H5OH → N(C2H5)3 + 3 H2O
______

Ethylamine is produced on a large scale by two processes. Most commonly ethanol and ammonia are combined in the presence of an oxide catalyst:
In this reaction, ethylamine is coproduced together with diethylamine and triethylamine.
CH3CH2OH + NH3 → CH3CH2NH2 + H2O

[Edited on 2-11-2014 by specialactivitieSK]

kratomiter - 6-10-2017 at 04:09

Quote: Originally posted by franklyn

Strong bases that can induce Nitronate tautomerism such as organic Amines and anhydrous Alkali , because hydrated forms promote dissociation. Anything that will produce an ionic solution. Alkali and Alkaline hydrides and acetylides. Typically ~ 5 % ( 1 part in twenty ) of the whole charge as with PLX is sufficient. Soluble inorganic oxidizers , Sodium Nitrite should work well ( I think ). 6.1 parts by weight CH3NO2 to 6.9 parts NaNO2 is stoichiometric.
2 CH3NO2 + 2 NaNO2 => Na2O + 2 CO2 + 3 H2O + 2 N2

.

[Edited on 28-9-2014 by franklyn]

I tried to detonate a 50/50 mix of NM and sodium nitrite. Of course, sodium nitrite is almost no soluble in NM and remains as a powder al the bottom. It still acts as a base and little amounts results in color change of NM.
Detonation was performed with 50 mg SADS + 50 mg MHN and judging the results it was only a partial detonation (there was some black smoke). Also dealing with nitrous acid is not the best think to do. Also had no success with 2% hexamine.

PHILOU Zrealone - 8-10-2017 at 05:30

Quote: Originally posted by kratomiter

Quote: Originally posted by franklyn

The NaNO2 will only set traces amounts of HNO2 free from the natural acidity of CH3-NO2 in anhydrous system...even if water is present the quantity will be very low...

The following reactions will catch it as it forms:
NaNO2 --water--> Na(+) + NO2(-)
CH3-NO2 <==--> CH2=N(O)-OH --water--> CH2=N(O)-O(-) + H(+)
H(+) + NO2(-) <----> HO-N=O <----> H2O + N2O3
HO-N=O <----> HO(-) + NO(+)
CH2=N(O)-O (-) + NO(+) <--==> CH2(-NO)-NO2
HO(-) + H(+) <----> H2O

CH3-NO2 or NM burns smokeless nitrite eventually with NxOy fumes... no black smoke...
==> The smoke comes from the container, the fuse or the detonator/detonating mix.

kratomiter - 9-10-2017 at 10:49

Thank you for your answer. Yes, the container was made from plastic, so it makes sense. I get a little dissapointed, hoped it could sensitize NM like potassium chlorate.

By the way, the compound CH2(-NO)-NO2 is N-methyl-N-nitrohydroxylamine? Can it be isolated pure or as a salt?

PHILOU Zrealone - 9-10-2017 at 15:45

Nitrosonitromethane is unstable just like dinitromethane (a related molecule (only one O atom of difference on one of its N atom); unstability is caused by the EWG effect (electron withdrawing group) what favorises the conversion/transposition of the nitro group into a nitrito one and this last one is very prone to hydrolysis or decomposition...
EWG-C-NO2 <----> EWG-C-O-N=O
EWG-C-O-N=O <----> EWG-C-O(-) + NO(+)
EWG-C-O-N=O <----> EWG-C(-) + NO2(+)
Edit note:
Some substituants of the C atoms have been left aside for convenience purpose; those can be C or H atoms.

Nitrosonitromethane is in equilibrium with an oximic form or a nitronic form...
O=N-CH=N(O)-OH (nitronic)<----> O=N-CH2-NO2 <----> HO-N=CH-NO2 (oximic)

Theorically...the molecule could be a diacid and should be related to nitrocyanide oxyde (O=N#C-NO2) and to its dimer dinitrofuroxane...
HO-N=CH-NO2 <--> HO-N=C=N(O)-OH <--> (-)O-N=C=N(O)-O(-) + 2H(+)

The salt formation is indeed a way to stabilize a little the molecule...
Such salts are sensitive to friction/heat/shock...

During the formation from bases usually a lot of side reactions happens including condensation, multimerization, additions, eliminations, transposition, rearrangements... also disporportionations (intramolecular or extramolecular oxydoredox reactions)
==> thus a very complex chemistry; hence difficulty to get pure products.

[Edited on 10-10-2017 by PHILOU Zrealone]

DrManhattan - 22-12-2017 at 17:48

What are some good non energetic gelling compounds for nitromethane? Reading the wikipedia page on PLX i came across this quote.

"Trzciński reports that 200 grams of a mixture of NM with PMMA as gelling agent and AlMg (45:55, mean particle size = 63 microns) as fuel, in a ratio of 67.2/2.8/30 by mass, has a peak overpressure of 120 kPa 2 m from the (open air) blast site, a 1.65 TNT equivalency in peak pressure, and a 1.62 equivalency in shockwave impulse."

PMMA referring to Poly(methyl methacrylate) aka acrylic was used in the above mixture. I have tried to use acrylic powder in the past but all i got was a blob of gel suspended in the liquid nitromethane.

Rocinante - 24-12-2017 at 09:03

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/prep.200900041/ab...

Bert - 24-12-2017 at 14:02

Fumed silica has been used with NM

Attachment: Nitromethane and amine explosives gelled with fumed silica.pdf (2MB)
This file has been downloaded 705 times

DrManhattan - 3-3-2018 at 20:08

Fumed silica worked a treat in a ratio of 25% AL, 4% Fumed Silica, 71% PLX.