Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Intangible Force Generator

Intangible Force Generator

elementcollector1 - 21-5-2014 at 10:48

This sounds so dumb, but I figured I'd at least make the attempt.

The goal here is to levitate any sort of object (not just magnets), with any sort of force (be it electromagnetic, pressure, etc.), and then launch it forward with a noticeable velocity. Previous ideas involved increasingly complex arrays of electromagnets, railguns and superconductors, and other such ideas that only worked for magnetic objects and were mainly just infuriating to work with.

The most recent idea I had was to use controlled streams of air to do the levitation, with a 'burst' of pressurized air to do the launching. This has a few ups and downs. The pros are that it can theoretically levitate anything to a certain mass, and can launch that same object using nothing but air. The drawbacks are that this is going to be loud and annoying, and the jets of air would have to be precisely controlled (possibly including a powerful vacuum jet overhead).

Given that the drawbacks potentially exceed the benefits, I'm asking you guys: Is there any better solution for this? That being said,
-No, I'm not going to give up
-I'm probably not going to invest huge amounts of money
-Yes, this is exactly what you think it is (to IrC, who's been pretty much schooling me on my earlier attempts).

alexleyenda - 21-5-2014 at 11:41

I was juste wondering, what exactly are you trying to acheive with this? It sounds like you wish to launch an object... why do you absolutely want levitation? Is there a point or ? Btw, it sounds awesome :p

bismuthate - 21-5-2014 at 12:00

Aerogel in a SF6 atmosphere should easily "levitate". Do you want to be able to levitate any material. You could try a very strong and prescise vacuum at the top of a chamber instead of air being pushed in at the bottom. Just a (lame) idea. Hmm would I use an or a there when there is a word in parentheses? (just thinking out loud(or in typing anyway))

MrHomeScientist - 21-5-2014 at 12:15

Quote: Originally posted by bismuthate

Aerogel in a SF6 atmosphere should easily "levitate".

Believe it or not, I just tried this exact experiment last Friday, and it does not work. We filled a fish tank with sulfur hexafluoride which we had already sprinkled some granular aerogel into, and saw zero floating. SF₆ is double the density of my aerogel, yet the gel does not float in the gas. Interesting, eh?

My hypothesis is that because aerogel is such a porous material, it pretty much immediately absorbs the gas which increases its density. Like a sponge soaking up water. I do still want to try filling the container with gas first and then adding the aerogel. Even if that does float, I suspect it would only be for a very short time before it sank.

Edit: typo.

[Edited on 5-21-2014 by MrHomeScientist]

bismuthate - 21-5-2014 at 12:20

Try coating the aerogel with a lacquer or something.

MrHomeScientist - 21-5-2014 at 12:48

Ah but would that increase its density to the point where it was no longer capable of floating? I think it might. Being so porous, I'd think it would absorb into its structure whatever you tried coating it with.

bismuthate - 21-5-2014 at 12:54

Could you coat the aerogel with an airtight solid or saran wrap? This may or may not work depending on the size of the aerogel.

Brain&Force - 21-5-2014 at 13:40

What happens if you drop the aerogel in water? If your hypothesis is correct, the aerogel should absorb the water immediately with the loss of air as bubbles when submerged.

Random - 21-5-2014 at 15:40

Al foil will float on SF6

The Volatile Chemist - 21-5-2014 at 15:53

Quote: Originally posted by Brain&Force

What happens if you drop the aerogel in water? If your hypothesis is correct, the aerogel should absorb the water immediately with the loss of air as bubbles when submerged.

Indeed. If he's correct, then one giant chunk lightly lacquered should still be "un-dense " enough (Sorry, no real word would fit here) to "float".

Back to the initial subject. Maybe if a 'not dense' liquid with a denser ferrofluid were placed in a container, with the object to be launched suspended in-between, a strong magnetic force could pull up the ferrofluid, giving force to the object on top...

Just kidding

That'd require ridiculous magnetic force, besides being inconvenient.

elementcollector1 - 21-5-2014 at 17:00

Yeah... I'd much prefer it if this didn't involve closed containers - I would rather like to carry this around...

Is the word you're looking for "light"?

The problem here is that there is no as of yet known way of creating gravitational force itself without manipulating mass - if I had that, we'd be done here...
So, I must make do with what essentially comes down to magic tricks. Such as ridiculously strong, self-adjusting jetstreams.

Another thing I'd forgotten to mention is that I would also like it to be able to attract objects from a great distance - my initial plan for this was a massive and very strong electromagnet, but you can see above why that was dismissed. This would not work with air jet - type setups, as it would have to somehow be a very 'directed' jet to attract in such a manner.

I wonder if anyone (except IrC)'s caught on to what exactly I'm trying to imitate yet...?

bismuthate - 21-5-2014 at 17:12

My vast psionic abilities?

The Volatile Chemist - 21-5-2014 at 17:37

Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1

Yeah... I'd much prefer it if this didn't involve closed containers - I would rather like to carry this around...

Is the word you're looking for "light"?

Nope, haven't caught on. This doesn't exactly seem chemistry -like though.
You could always manipulate volume instead of mass to stimulate gravitational force

This post is totally gonna get detritus soon...

how about plasma?

quantumchromodynamics - 21-5-2014 at 17:58

How about levitating and projecting plasma?

thesmug - 21-5-2014 at 18:12

Quote: Originally posted by quantumchromodynamics

How about levitating and projecting plasma?

That'd be really loud and annoying (anyone who's used a plasma cutter would know). Plus I fail to understand what you're describing. Mind elaborating?

elementcollector1 - 21-5-2014 at 18:13

Not sure why it'd get Detritus'd - after all, this is Miscellaneous, and it is still technically science.
Here, let me give you the answer in the most obvious way possible.

I suppose manipulating volume would essentially be working with pressure, which is pretty much the "air-jet" approach...

EDIT: I have looked into "plasma railguns" to give me the effects I need, but the power supply is ludicrous and the things are, in fact, very loud. Also, high voltage plasma arcs = not fun.

[Edited on 5-22-2014 by elementcollector1]

Metacelsus - 21-5-2014 at 18:33

Acoustic levitation!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_levitation
Use ultrasound to be inaudible.

elementcollector1 - 21-5-2014 at 19:13

Ooh, that sounds good. Maximum weight capacity of a few kilograms is still something I can get behind.
So I guess that covers levitation - what about attraction and launch?

thesmug - 21-5-2014 at 20:13

Quote: Originally posted by Cheddite Cheese

Acoustic levitation!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_levitation
Use ultrasound to be inaudible.

Wouldn't there be issues with the sound disintegrating the object?

essbee - 21-5-2014 at 20:56

Having read the title of this post, I thought you might be going to delve into a 'mystery' I vaguely remember from literally my childhood......an article in the Daily Express ( UK newspaper) around 1970 which described the invention of a 'Mad Scientist' who configured a set of magnets and a flywheel ( made of ??) into a strange machine which he then attached to a mains powered electric motor ( very vague.....)
On firing it up, the 'thing' levitated and then with some violence, took off, ripped the power cord from the mains and.....continued to rise at some speed and disappeared upwards never to be seen again.
I have been unable to find this article in any record, it was not in the April 1st issue, and myself can see absolutely no reason why it would display any anti-gravity properties.
Then again, how many inventions have been discovered accidentally by bumbling amateurs...............

Is it possible he found a way of producing gravitons?? Or more likely some sort of gravity shielding allowing the 'thing' to escape??

All very Sci-fi, but perhaps in 200 years time when a proper scientist stumbles on whatever the mad one did, we will know the answer.

MrHomeScientist - 22-5-2014 at 05:55

Quote: Originally posted by Brain&Force

What happens if you drop the aerogel in water? If your hypothesis is correct, the aerogel should absorb the water immediately with the loss of air as bubbles when submerged.

Good question, I'll have to try this under more controlled conditions. I washed out the fish tank with lots of water but didn't get a chance to observe anything. Afterwards, the aerogel seems to turn back into a regular gel.

@Random: We tried floating Al foil boats on it and came pretty close, but could never quite get it to work. This was for a stage show, so we didn't want to be fumbling with making rafts for 30 minutes and scrapped that idea fairly quickly. I've seen it done, though. There's some delicate balance of size, weight, displacement, and making sure the gas is settled as much as possible.

air vs water, filling pores

jwpa17 - 22-5-2014 at 16:12

Be careful here. The surface tension, cohesiveness, adhesiveness (amongst other properties) of these two are sufficiently different that you shouldn't assume that water will fill pores that air does. For example, we have filters made of Teflon with 0.45 um pores. I can such air through them easily. But unless I pre-wet them with an organic solvent, water takes a fair amount of pressure to get forced into the pores. Or activated carbon - you have to boil it under a vacuum to get aqueous solutions to displace the air in the pores, at least for some types of carbon.

IrC - 23-5-2014 at 14:57

elementcollector1 "I wonder if anyone (except IrC)'s caught on to what exactly I'm trying to imitate yet...?"

Don't ask me I'm having great difficulty getting this Lime to fit through that hole I bored in a Coconut. After 42 years I still don't know what the hell that song means.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LxC3M-Yngs&feature=kp

smaerd - 23-5-2014 at 18:34

I think experimenting with acoustics would be the most interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=669AcEBpdsY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odJxJRAxdFU

Not exactly 'portable' but, way cool. Still in the range of amateur science though,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy1w6rTpC2g

edit - I experimented with some really basic magnetic levitation in the classic bismuth plate experiments. Was a lot harder to set up then I had anticipated.

[Edited on 24-5-2014 by smaerd]

elementcollector1 - 23-5-2014 at 21:37

Quote: Originally posted by smaerd

I think experimenting with acoustics would be the most interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=669AcEBpdsY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odJxJRAxdFU

Not exactly 'portable' but, way cool. Still in the range of amateur science though,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy1w6rTpC2g

edit - I experimented with some really basic magnetic levitation in the classic bismuth plate experiments. Was a lot harder to set up then I had anticipated.

[Edited on 24-5-2014 by smaerd]

These, but with a very fixed and stable focal point. Nice videos! Although judging from the third video, I once again don't like the power requirements... And the size of the things involved. What's more foreboding is that I'm hoping to accomplish this using 2 sound emitters at 60 degree angles from the target object... And have the target object have a substantial mass.

Any ideas on nonmagnetic attraction?

Metacelsus - 24-5-2014 at 06:10

Acoustic levitation can move stuff around as well (this was only recently developed, and is more complex).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odJxJRAxdFU

smaerd - 24-5-2014 at 19:53

I really think acoustic's are your best bet. You could levitate something, then have another ultrasonic horn/transducer/whatever perpendicular to the levitation source(s) and hammer the object away through the air. Granted it would have to be incredibly low in mass for a table top demonstration.

Ohh waiiit, are you going to be one of those youtube con-artists elementcollector1? If so I regret offering much advice.

the plasma thing

quantumchromodynamics - 25-5-2014 at 01:53

It does not have to be extremely annoying. How about start with an alcohol flame and charge it with an abundance of electrons, say using an electrostatic technique, then surround such charged blue flame with a coil of of copper wire. Pulse the coil with a stiff current, and see if you can shoot little blue plasma balls through the coil, or just see if the plasma can be made to vibrate into interesting shapes. This is an armchair project I have always wanted to work on. Some of the sound vibration ideas in this thread are very interesting also.

elementcollector1 - 25-5-2014 at 09:17

Quote: Originally posted by smaerd

Ohh waiiit, are you going to be one of those youtube con-artists elementcollector1? If so I regret offering much advice.

But of course. Would you like to purchase some kitchens?
Anyway, acoustic sounds good. What if I used air pressure for the launching mechanism, similar to those potato cannon setups?

Also, for the attraction, I saw once that a 10 T magnetic field could be used to suspend a frog in midair, due to the diamagnetic water inside the frog. Could this be used to attract objects? Of course, with any ferrous metal, the resulting attraction would probably be strong enough to break the entire device...

smaerd - 25-5-2014 at 15:04

Depends, can I have them delivered via helicoptor? Else-wise no thanks

. Oh yea I generate 10T magnetic fields all the time

. Electromagnet/superconductor design on the level is just out of the question for at home or portability.

Air pressure sounds more reasonable for the launching mechanism. It's quite easy to get pressurized gases of some kind and have them instantaneously expand. First thought is a CO2 cartridge for paint-ball. Rather then cease the flow politely ask it to dump the entire canister in a 'controlled' manner. Controlled as in not causing harm.

elementcollector1 - 28-5-2014 at 20:53

That's a thought, but this thing is supposed to be basically autonomous - perhaps an onboard air compressor?
@quantumchromodynamics: Somehow, I don't think that would work for what I have in mind, although it would indeed be cool.

So, with levitation and repulsion solved, any ideas for attraction? Frankly, I can't think of any type of force that would work in a roughly linear fashion, exerting a force at whatever it was pointing at... Oh, and work on all types of materials.

I wonder how small you can make the acoustic levitation setups?

IrC - 18-6-2014 at 10:07

Has anyone looked at this patent?

Acceleration of large projectiles with electrostatic forces

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2006/0027085.html

Praxichys - 18-6-2014 at 10:15

Please don't tell me you're trying to replicate the gravity gun from Half-Life 2.

elementcollector1 - 18-6-2014 at 10:50

Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys

Please don't tell me you're trying to replicate the gravity gun from Half-Life 2.

Hehehehehe.
Hehehehehehe.
HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE.

Texium - 18-6-2014 at 10:56

Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys

Please don't tell me you're trying to replicate the gravity gun from Half-Life 2.

I think that's probably what he was going for!
Edit: EC1, your last post wasn't there for me when I posted

[Edited on 6-18-2014 by zts16]