Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Will firestarter hexamine work?

TheAlchemistPirate - 25-3-2014 at 19:16

So I was planning on making RDX with nitric acid and hexamine(also known as methenamine, or Hexamethylenetetramine)and I saw on ebay where it is sold as fire starter.Will this work or is it not the right chemical?

NeonPulse - 25-3-2014 at 19:32

That will work but you should ensure that there is no wax binder added.dissolve the hex in water filter out the crap if any and evaporate the water, you should be left with a relatively pure product. Turn it into HDN for better yields though. Plenty of information on this in other threads here.

TheAlchemistPirate - 25-3-2014 at 19:55

Quote: Originally posted by NeonPulse  
That will work but you should ensure that there is no wax binder added.dissolve the hex in water filter out the crap if any and evaporate the water, you should be left with a relatively pure product. Turn it into HDN for better yields though. Plenty of information on this in other threads here.
I know this sounds dumb but what is HDN? I cant seem to find the definition on the forums and google says its a disease.Sorry this is my first time posting.

Turner - 25-3-2014 at 19:57

Hexamine di-nitrate

TheAlchemistPirate - 25-3-2014 at 20:08

So I could use the same process as the one below but with hexamine di-nitrate? (copy and pasted)
Slowly ad 25gr methenamine to the HNO3, which went quite easy keeping the temperature under 30degr C
After that put the solution in a water bath of 60 degrees C, letting the temperature of the solution rise to 55 degr C Keep it at this temperature for 12 minutes.
Then cool it down in a ice bath to 20 degrees C
During this phase some rdx becomes visible in the solution.
Let it stand for 10 min.
Then add to the solution 400 ml of ice water
A lot more of rdx will precipitated out of the solution.
Let this solution stand for 5 minutes
After filtering neutralised the rdx with 400 ml 5% sodium bicarbonate solution.

The yield after completely drying was 29.7 grams which is if I am right is about 74%



[Edited on 26-3-2014 by TheAlchemistPirate]

NeonPulse - 25-3-2014 at 21:37

Looking back at some old notes I have it seems that If I am correct you can use up to 25g of hexamine di-nitrate to 50ml of nitric acid. Ihaven't actually made this amount before but using the straight hexamine I have tried small amounts. The yields were pretty poor so I chose to use my acid on other things that don't require so much conc HNO3.
What strength is your nitric?
Keep in mind you need at least 97%+ for a decent outcome.

Bert - 26-3-2014 at 08:09

Welcome to the wonderful world of energetic chemistry.
Quote: Originally posted by TheAlchemistPirate  
Will this work or is it not the right chemical?


There are sections of sciencemadness.org forum JUST for asking questions like this:

Reagents and apparatus acquisition

There are more than a few existing threads devoted to making hexamine dinitrate (HDN), RDX and over the counter resources for such:

Look, UTFSE first from now on, OK? The acronym "UTFSE" stands for "use the f****** search engine" and is likely to be the first reply to a commonly posed question. ESPECIALLY if opening a new thread needlessly to ask it.

Here are some site policies you might want to look at:

So, this is it, welcome and happy quality posting

Remember:

It is ALLWAYS better to post in an existing thread than to open a new one!.

[Edited on 26-3-2014 by Bert]

TheAlchemistPirate - 26-3-2014 at 08:31

Sorry I didn't know about the acquisition of reagents thread,and I think my nitric is 80%.

Bert - 26-3-2014 at 09:18

Think?

KNOW.

By doing an acid/base titration, perhaps.

Or if you've got a good scale and an accurate graduated cylinder-

You could determine % from density at a known temperature.

I am now going to shut up until someone posts in a way that makes it obvious they are really trying to think before they leap.

Browsing the stuff in "beginnings" might help.

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/forumdisplay.php?fid=12

And the Library is ALLWAYS a good place too.

http://library.sciencemadness.org/library/index.html

TheAlchemistPirate - 26-3-2014 at 11:41

Yeah I actually haven't made the nitric acid yet. I am going to this weekend, and the procedure I saw on youtube isn't clear about the concentration. Thank for the weight chart though, I was going to use one of those and I couldn't find one anywhere on the internet. I am going to start off with making the simpler syntheses like making nitrocellulose( I prefer the explosive side of chemistry) and I was just asking this for future reference. Thanks for helping though.



Btw: Can I delete this thread so it wont clutter up the forums?

roXefeller - 26-3-2014 at 13:39

Is it legal to assist the OP in thread suicide? RDX synthesis has some very subtle nuances that will require alot of reading on these threads. If you aren't willing to put in for this reading first you should hold off on RDX since you'll be wasting nitric acid that could be better spent on other projects. Unfortunately the lure of easily available hexamine is about the simplest aspect. Once it goes into nitration its a darwin's grabbag of nitramines floating around, this is why the low yields was mentioned earlier. The nitric distillation alone has its own nuances to get up to high purity. Low acid % is just a nonstarter completely, but you'll read about that on the threads. Bert is spot on, and here's another search hint, use the domain function with google (or whatever) site:sciencemadness.org, add it to your search term, because things like HDN are all over, and often with this abbreviation.

Bert - 26-3-2014 at 13:46

Maybe you should spend the weekend reading and taking notes?

Do you know which common glove material tends to catch fire from a high % nitric acid spill?

TheAlchemistPirate - 26-3-2014 at 14:35

I was planning on using butyl rubber gloves, as far as I know they don't catch fire when touching nitric acid. I know they dissolve faster than neoprene but I don't plan on keeping them on if I have a spill... I know all the dangers and safety procedures, Im only making a small amount of nitrocellulose.

Turner - 26-3-2014 at 15:13

Your signature is probably not the right idea to have coming in here.


Other than that, you'll be fine with butyl gloves. I have gotten kind of careless before with the handling of nitric acid and even spilled anhydrous nitric acid on my skin a few times, it was not painful, probably because it was just my finger, but did stain my skin yellow, just how silver nitrate stains skin black.

Nitrile gloves catch on fire after a few seconds when nitric acid is splashed on

Nitrocellulous would be a good choice for a start, I've never made it though myself, even the direct nitrolysis of hex amine might be good practice to RDX, you need nitric acid at least 95%, this means distillation from nitrate salt and slight excess of sulfuric acid for full dehydration.

Don't worry about yellow nitric acid, or contamination with NO2, you can still get RDX from this nitric acid. Find a reputable procedure from a scientific paper to find what temperature you want for the reaction and other details



[Edited on 26-3-2014 by Turner]

TheAlchemistPirate - 26-3-2014 at 19:14

I am making nitric acid by distilling 98% sulfuric acid and potassium nitrate at around 100 degrees Celsius. Im a newbie so sorry for the useless thread.

Bert - 26-3-2014 at 20:50

Once more: your time spent reading & planning before will increase productivity & reduce lifelong scars and/or death from NOx inhalation. Skin grafts and trashed lungs are bad things.

So research:

Nitrogen oxide (NOx) inhalation hazards (like death...)

Bumping (leads to boiling acid showers)

Boiling chips (might reduce bumping. Maybe.)

Oil bath

Vacuum distillation

Nitric acid without distilling from Barium, Calcium or Magnesium nitrates & Sulfuric acid.

Nitric acid distilled from (cheap!) concrete etching solutions of Nitric acid & Phosphoric acid

Concentrating azeotropic nitric acid with sulfuric acid- Or anhydrous solid chemicals, like Calcium oxide- Or methylene chloride- Or Phosphorous pentoxide (ha, like you've got that).

Nitrocellulose or nitroglycerin from Sulfuric acid and a nitrate, with no nitric acid preparation required.

If you ignore all the advice and just GO DO IT RIGHT NOW!!!, please have a friend at a distance with a video camera, have him post any "interesting" video here for the next guy who is in a hurry to watch.

TheAlchemistPirate - 27-3-2014 at 13:19

What makes you think I haven't researched those things? This method of getting nitric acid is one of the most efficient ones I found anywhere on the internet, and I have been studying these methods for over a month. I did find 68% nitric acid for a very good price on a website, but I don't want to attract any attention not to mention I have already ordered these chemicals before I even made this thread. I know perfectly well what Im doing and all the dangers of the acids/acid fumes and the explosives I plan on making with them. I am not using a vacuum distillation setup as those are a bit advanced for me atm and I am a beginner in chemistry. That doesn't mean im some nine year old who doesn't know how dangerous nitrations and other processes using acids are. Thanks for warning me about it but it really wasn't necessary. I will try other ways of making nitric acid in the future, but don't think im dumb enough to try to make RDX with nitric acid below 91% concentration. I know what im doing and have actually talked about it to my uncle (who is a chemical engineer). I honestly don't know why you are insulting my intelligence and not some other amateur chemists on these forums. Don't confuse me for an idiot who doesn't listen to others when doing these kind of things. I am asking on a science forum, after all.

[Edited on 27-3-2014 by TheAlchemistPirate]

[Edited on 27-3-2014 by TheAlchemistPirate]

Zyklon-A - 27-3-2014 at 14:20

Loosen-up, Bert , he certainly has done quite a bit of research.
TheAlchemistPirate, I wouldn't buy the 68% nitric acid, either way you'll still have to distill with sulfuric acid to get it to ~98%, so it would be a waist of money, as sulfuric acid and nitrate salts are cheaper.

[Edited on 27-3-2014 by Zyklonb]

Bert - 27-3-2014 at 15:01

Quote: Originally posted by TheAlchemistPirate  
I honestly don't know why you are insulting my intelligence and not some other amateur chemists on these forums. Don't confuse me for an idiot who doesn't listen to others when doing these kind of things. I am asking on a science forum, after all.


Why you?

I was among the last persons to communicate with "phone", aside from his school friends who got splattered with his bloody remains. I sometimes wonder what other thing I could have said instead of what I told him that night, that he would have understood and maybe not died like that?

You reminded me of him. You still do.

You asked for verification of raw materials for RDX.

Didn't know VERY basic information related to that process.

Offered no indication you had studied accurate sources.
Quote:

Phone's post before he killed himself that weekend are definitely on the E&W archive. See "Storing the AP" on the archive and you'll see his post... =========================================== phone February 21st, 2004, 07:08 AM i wonder if in europe there is anyone that uses mehenamine for fire tablets or other things..i found only petrol derivate tablets... Yeah. They´re german, I don´t have the pack right here, but it´s almost pure methanamine (or how you now spell that lame word). You just solve it in aceton and you get it pure (or was it water) I haven´t really memorized it since I am an AP lamer (but I do own a pack with methanamine), HMTD is nutting for me , but hey, first time I did AP I did 80 grams, second 120 grams, third time (yesterday, drying today) something about a kilo or more... I GONNA BLOW MY FRICKING ARMS OFF! And yeah, I don´t treat AP with respect, but well, I got plenty of cold, snow and ice outside so my AP is usually quite resistant against pressure e.tc. Well, right now my brain feels like weird, I gonna have to put up a few lamps e.tc. (it dried overnight, switched the newsspaper it was on) and I think I gonna put up a few lamps to get the bitch dry faster. Well, my moms out of the weekend, that´s why I am sitting here with over 1 kilo AP and lots and lots and lots AN. Well, sure, I spam... but.. hey! Well. Well, almost forgot, I always take all my explosives and just make 1 big fucking bomb of it. 1 kilo AP and a couple of kílos AN coming up. =========================================== .


Quote: Originally posted by rikkitikkitavi  
http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=147&a=236561&am...

A major swedish newspaper reports that a 15 year old boy was killed instantly on the night between sat. and sunday when a homemade bomd exploded .

His three friends at the site where not physically injured but severly chocked.

Police and bomd squad later evacuated the apartment building in which the boy lived, to search the apartment for explosives.


/rickard

Zyklon-A - 27-3-2014 at 15:20

This "Phone" person is clearly a fucking idiot, if someone said :
Quote:

You reminded me of him. You still do.
, I would be quite insulted.
Quote:
Originally posted by Phone
I don´t treat AP with respect[....]
In what way does TheAlchemistPirate remind you of Phone?

The_Davster - 27-3-2014 at 15:32

Quote: Originally posted by TheAlchemistPirate  
What makes you think I haven't researched those things?


Quote: Originally posted by TheAlchemistPirate  
Will this work or is it not the right chemical?


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=hexamine+fuel+tablets+rdx
Quote: Originally posted by TheAlchemistPirate  

I know perfectly well what Im doing


Quote: Originally posted by TheAlchemistPirate  

I am a beginner in chemistry


Don't get all huffy when those who know more about explosives school you on it. You came here to ask the question and got an answer and additional info out of concern about you doing it properly and not blowing your ass off. Best to read around the forum a bit more before experimenting.

closed