Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Does anyone know how to make Ozone generator???

Does anyone know how to make Ozone generator???

wish i had a kraken!!! - 11-3-2014 at 01:37

I recently became aware of existence of a physical phenomenon which is called "silent discharge" -Thanks to a dear friend ,Woelen! - It seems Ozone can be generated this way!
I already made an attempt but it was not a good one

hissingnoise - 11-3-2014 at 05:27

In an O₃ generator, the electrodes are separated by a dielectric material (glass or other suitable insulator).
A straight wire through the tube centre with the other electrode being alu-foil or similar affixed to the tube's outer surface will suffice . .
Being oxidising, O₃ readily degrades rubber!

Zyklon-A - 11-3-2014 at 06:44

Looks good, except for that rubber, Also have one electrode on the outside of the tube. A good read on ozone production:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=8343

wish i had a kraken!!! - 11-3-2014 at 08:17

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise

In an O₃ generator, the electrodes are separated by a dielectric material (glass or other suitable insulator).
A straight wire through the tube centre with the other electrode being alu-foil or similar affixed to the tube's outer surface will suffice . .
Being oxidising, O₃ readily degrades rubber!

Thanks I didn't know it would degrades rubber!!!

wish i had a kraken!!! - 11-3-2014 at 08:29

And guys do u know ozone indicators??? for example I heard urea would be decomposed in exposure of ozone
Do u think it is possible to indicate ozone this way???

hissingnoise - 11-3-2014 at 08:33

Ground glass is the ideal solution, but wrapping the rubber bungs with teflon tape can eliminate damage if done carefully enough . . .
And starch-iodide papers are good indicators for ozone!

wish i had a kraken!!! - 11-3-2014 at 09:11

What are starch-iodide papers u mean I just add iodine to starch??? then i think it would become purple but I don't know how it would indicate ozone could u describe more???

Zyklon-A - 11-3-2014 at 09:50

Smell it, at very low PPM it will smell like a copy machine, (they produce small amounts of ozone.) At higher PPM the smell is hard to explain: It smells kind of like bleach, (chlorine), HV source, ect.

Tsjerk - 11-3-2014 at 10:06

What do you want to do with the ozone created? It is a fairly dangerous compound of not handled with care, potentially very deadly, and it doesn't seem to me you are very knowledgeable. Not to offend you though, just wanting to help.

benzene triozonide, http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=1181, you wouldn't be the first to blow up a complete lab and some people with you... I can't find the person doing it, but iirc the person in question blew up himself and people on the floors above and below him, with just a liter or something.

Not only dangerous with benzene, but with about every organic compound and maybe inorganic compounds.

Edit: To help you on the way though; iodide, something else than iodine, is oxidized by ozone, therefor you can use starch as an indicator. If you don't get it after this hint, you really shouldn't be playing around with ozone.

[Edited on 11-3-2014 by Tsjerk]

[Edited on 11-3-2014 by Tsjerk]

hissingnoise - 11-3-2014 at 10:26

Quote:

It is a fairly dangerous compound of not handled with care, potentially very deadly, and it doesn't seem to me you are very knowledgeable. Not to offend you though, just wanting to help.

The few percent conversion of O₂ in a homemade plasma-tube is more an irritant than a danger, but voltages used can be lethal!

Scr0t - 11-3-2014 at 11:56

" Ozone by Electrolysis. When 20% H₂SO₄ is electrolyzed it is possible, by employing a water-cooled platinum anode and current density of ~80Acm^-2, to obtain oxygen that contains as much as 28g O₃ per m³ or ~7g O₃ per KWH [1].
If an alternating current is superimposed upon the direct current employed the yield of O₃ is increased [2]."

Modern chemistry pure and applied - Arthur J. Hale.

[1] Zeitsch. anorg. Chem., 1907, 52, 202.
[2] Zeitsch. Elektrochem., 1911, 17, 812.

Tsjerk - 11-3-2014 at 15:59

Quote:

The few percent conversion of O2 in a homemade plasma-tube is more an irritant than a danger, but voltages used can be lethal!

I don't know the mechanism by which ozone and benzene bind, but if it is anything more than dissolving, cumulatively it wouldn't matter what your conversion rate is.

[Edited on 12-3-2014 by Tsjerk]

[Edited on 12-3-2014 by Tsjerk]

Metacelsus - 11-3-2014 at 17:05

It forms benzene triozonide (the ozone adds to the pi bonds). According to

http://chem-guide.blogspot.com/2010/04/chemical-properties-o...

it might be an interesting way of preparing glyoxal

wish i had a kraken!!! - 12-3-2014 at 01:07

I made changes !!!
but I faced a new problem!!! It seems silent discharge produces a lot of heat on the electrode connected to the ground!!!
so,I fear if I run my device it will cause in the breaking of the glass tube (I choose a Pyrex glass) or burning of the electrode(I think oxygen or Ozone might react with the electrode)!!!soon!!!

And does anyone know the exact mechanism of producing Ozone by silent discharge??? If u have noticed there is a blue light emitting from the electrodes once I heard UV light can produce Ozone from Oxygen ,do u think the blue light might be UV??? and if so, why Ozone is produced by silent discharge???
I mean why electric arc cannot produce it???
[Edited on 12-3-2014 by wish i had a kraken!!!]

[Edited on 12-3-2014 by wish i had a kraken!!!]

wish i had a kraken!!! - 12-3-2014 at 01:25

Quote: Originally posted by Zyklonb

Smell it, at very low PPM it will smell like a copy machine, (they produce small amounts of ozone.) At higher PPM the smell is hard to explain: It smells kind of like bleach, (chlorine), HV source, ect.

why Coppy machines produce Ozone and what is the mechanism???

by the way "I Love The Smell Of Ozone at low ppms!"

once I made a more powerful electeric arc generator and it smelled like "dead fish!" I don't know why ??? is it possible that Ammonia (NH3) is formed??? but how???

wish i had a kraken!!! - 12-3-2014 at 01:42

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk

What do you want to do with the ozone created? It is a fairly dangerous compound of not handled with care, potentially very deadly, and it doesn't seem to me you are very knowledgeable. Not to offend you though, just wanting to help.

benzene triozonide, http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=1181, you wouldn't be the first to blow up a complete lab and some people with you... I can't find the person doing it, but iirc the person in question blew up himself and people on the floors above and below him, with just a liter or something.

Not only dangerous with benzene, but with about every organic compound and maybe inorganic compounds.

Edit: To help you on the way though; iodide, something else than iodine, is oxidized by ozone, therefor you can use starch as an indicator. If you don't get it after this hint, you really shouldn't be playing around with ozone.

[Edited on 11-3-2014 by Tsjerk]

[Edited on 11-3-2014 by Tsjerk]

Thanks for your comment
1.I know Ozone is dangerous!!! and I know it is not a stable compound it will be decomposed soon to Oxygen (30 minutes is its life time)
2.I know iodine is different from iodide(When I was a kid I used Iodine as an indicator of Starch! it turned potatoes in to purple colored as I can barely remember but u know I wanted to know Ozone reacts with Starch??? with Iodine??? or with both??? and also I knew we can dissolve Iodine in alcohol ,if I make a solution and then I bauble Ozone through it what would happen??? the Iodine will vanish??? due to formation of a new compound??? or alcohol will react with Ozone and form a new compound???
what will happen???

[Edited on 12-3-2014 by wish i had a kraken!!!]

Metacelsus - 12-3-2014 at 05:12

The ozone oxidizes iodide to triiodide, which complexes with the starch.

By the way, one question mark per question is sufficient.

wish i had a kraken!!! - 12-3-2014 at 06:41

Quote: Originally posted by Cheddite Cheese

The ozone oxidizes iodide to triiodide, which complexes with the starch.

By the way, one question mark per question is sufficient.

what is the property of triiodide? I mean what is the difference between Iodide and Triiodide which helps to indicate Ozone?

MrHomeScientist - 12-3-2014 at 07:42

Instead of stumbling around back and forth with these unending hints, I'll just tell you. You make a solution of starch and iodide and soak this onto a piece of paper. Coming into contact with an oxidizer (like ozone) oxidizes some of the iodide to iodine, which forms the triiodide ion. This complexes with starch to form the deep blue color. So, you start with a colorless solution absorbed onto white paper, blow air with suspected ozone in it at the paper, and if it turns blue it indicates that oxidizers (in this case ozone) are present.

Be extremely careful with ozone and high voltages.

Zyklon-A - 12-3-2014 at 08:57

Quote:

Why do copy machines produce ozone? And what is the mechanism?

I'm not an expert, but it is made in a similar way that you are trying to make it. It ionizes air O₂ + Hv → 2O. Then O + O₂ → O₃.
Almost all appliance's that use Hv, tend to produce small quantity's of O₃.

Quote:

Once I made a more powerful electric arc generator and it smelled like "dead fish!" I don't know why? Is it possible that Ammonia (NH3) is formed??? but how???

No, it would be nitrogen dioxide NO₂. It doesn't really smell like "dead fish" though.

hissingnoise - 12-3-2014 at 09:12

Quote:

It doesn't really smell like "dead fish" though.

Methylamines released by the hot methanal-urea polymer (sockets and plugs) would explain the fish-smell . . .

Zyklon-A - 12-3-2014 at 09:27

Oh, that makes sense.

wish i had a kraken!!! - 12-3-2014 at 12:32

Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist

Instead of stumbling around back and forth with these unending hints, I'll just tell you. You make a solution of starch and iodide and soak this onto a piece of paper. Coming into contact with an oxidizer (like ozone) oxidizes some of the iodide to iodine, which forms the triiodide ion. This complexes with starch to form the deep blue color. So, you start with a colorless solution absorbed onto white paper, blow air with suspected ozone in it at the paper, and if it turns blue it indicates that oxidizers (in this case ozone) are present.

Be extremely careful with ozone and high voltages.

THANKS
By the way can u describe more?
the composition of the solution?
starch(? grams) + (?grams Iodied ) + how many mililiters of water?

[Edited on 12-3-2014 by wish i had a kraken!!!]

wish i had a kraken!!! - 12-3-2014 at 12:34

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise

Quote:

It doesn't really smell like "dead fish" though.

Methylamines released by the hot methanal-urea polymer (sockets and plugs) would explain the fish-smell . . .

THANKS
U ARE SO KEEN!

Metacelsus - 12-3-2014 at 14:24

Quote:

10 g. of pure starch are ground up with a little water and the paste is then poured into a litre of boiling water with good stirring. After cooling, 2 g. potassium iodide are added, and pure filter-paper is soaked in it and allowed to dry in a clean atmosphere.

http://chestofbooks.com/science/chemistry/Processes-Dye-Chem...

This is a larger scale preparation. You should probably scale it down.

Please read here and here.

wish i had a kraken!!! - 13-3-2014 at 00:20

Thanks

NOV:5 - 12-10-2014 at 20:16

I didn't make mine, but I do have a large (5800 mg/hr CO3) commercial CD O3 generator running continuously scrubbing my TC lab. If I understand this thread correctly I should not let the output from my fume hood (still under construction) mix with the output from my O3 system? The hood has a 14"x 39" (RC-48) carbon filter in the top..

I hadn't really thought about it so I'm glad I saw this thread. I can run the discharge separately if needed.

IrC - 12-10-2014 at 21:38

Quote: Originally posted by wish i had a kraken!!!

I made changes !!!

I mean why electric arc cannot produce it???

Foil around the outside is counterproductive as now your O3 is in the air you breathe not confined only to the outlet of the device where it can be run into a reaction. You want coaxial electrodes separated by dielectric confined inside the tube to keep all ozone contained where you can direct it to where you want it to go, rather than up your nostrils.

An arc will produce some ozone but due to heat mostly NOx will be formed which is not what you want. There are so many sources already online about all of this. Stop asking questions for spoon fed answers in lieu of spending time in search and study. This is how most of us learned these things.

CuReUS - 13-10-2014 at 04:04

just buy an ozone generator ,they are used for disinfecting water ,food and also as air purifiers in rooms,cars and closets
http://www.ozonesolutions.com/products/Commercial-Ozone-Gene...

but the thing that i have observed is that for most of these machines ,the outlet for ozone is big and square shaped,so leading the ozone from the machine to the reaction mixture(if you are planning to use it for that ,say for a reaction like reductive ozonolysis on styrene to make benzaldehyde) is going to be a problem as ozone attacks most materials,so i dont think you can use plastic or rubber pipes or hoses

[Edited on 13-10-2014 by CuReUS]

Dr.Bob - 15-10-2014 at 09:57

Tygon seems to hold up to Ozone pretty well. The tubing on our 1970's ozone generator is Tygon and has held up fine. Rubber tubing would not last long, however. I can say from experience, that even with gloves on, your hands will smell like ozone if you get them near the output of it. Kinda like a thunderstorm or over-chlorinated pool.

I have had very mixed luck with ozone, for some reactions, it is the cleanest, easiest way to convert an double bond to the aldehyde (with DMS quench), other reactions it has chewed up some other part of the molecule or the double bond is hindered enough to not react. But there is only one way to know which will happen, a test reaction. And if your molecule is colored, it is much harder to see when the blue color when it is done.