Sciencemadness Discussion Board - etn explosive Combination with tnt

etn explosive Combination with tnt

valmaramine - 10-2-2014 at 06:24

Hi, Is it etn be combined with tnt (melted together 50-50) for the booster?

Zyklon-A - 10-2-2014 at 06:56

Please try to reword your sentence in a way that makes sense, and use proper capitalization of acronyms.
Also give more information, and try to do the stoichiometry yourself, to make the ETN-TNT mixture oxygen balanced. (Which is what I think you are talking about.)
If you can't be bothered to do a little research, I can't be bothered to help you.

(No insult implied.)

[Edited on 10-2-2014 by Zyklonb]

hissingnoise - 10-2-2014 at 10:25

Quote:

Hi, Is it etn be combined with tnt (melted together 50-50) for the booster?

Heating ETN to its melting point is extremely hazardous and should not be attempted . . .

Zyklon-A - 10-2-2014 at 11:15

DO NOT MELT ETN: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=16612
Learn from other's mistakes.

[Edited on 10-2-2014 by Zyklonb]

flame

valmaramine - 10-2-2014 at 11:16

etn flame is burning or exploding?

Bert - 10-2-2014 at 13:27

It can be exploded by heat or flame, especially when in contact with Aluminum.

A sample enclosed in Aluminum foil left on a hot plate or exposed to a flame so it heats up slowly to the melting point and then past will pretty reliably detonate.

Turner - 10-2-2014 at 19:52

TNT melts at 80C ETN melts at 60C, this would be a useless composition. If you would like to explore cast compositions with much higher power than classical TNT comps. Look into SAFE, affective ways of casting ETN, and then incorporate good explosives into a cast that do not have a melt cartable property by themselves like RDX and HMX, but using ETN as the cast explosive. I predict a cast comp of ETN/RDX (or HMX) could have a density over 1.7g/cm3 depending on other factors, I think this would be incredibly brisant and powerful

Also consider slurries of liquid explosive base like NG or EGDN and add various amounts and form of RDX, HMX, PETN etc.

ETN doesn't automatically explode when it is melted, this is a big misconception, depending on HOW it is heated, I even had an accident in my garage of a small amount of almost residue left over ETN detonating from heatshock on the bottom of a glass beaker. Nitroglycerin does the same thing.

Ral123 - 10-2-2014 at 23:03

I tried it. ETN/DNT/TNT. They don't mix at all and require booster, even when the ETN above 80%.

valmaramine - 11-2-2014 at 06:39

Thank you friends. After making etn no value at all. Standard explosives such as picric acid and tetryl all the better.

valmaramine - 11-2-2014 at 07:12

Friends, what a booster is suitable for blowing up TNT?

bfesser - 11-2-2014 at 07:21

Quote: Originally posted by valmaramine

…for <em>blowing up</em> TNT? [emphasis added]

I won't interfere to moderate in EM, but to me that sounds very unscientific and 'kewlish.'

Zyklon-A - 11-2-2014 at 07:34

I don't think you're going to get any answers, if you continue to ask questions that are similar what you have been asking.

Also, most (all?) of your questions can answered with a simple Google search.

Fantasma4500 - 11-2-2014 at 07:56

i would like to suggest you to somehow stream it online for people to see how brilliantly easy it is to mix liquid TNT with pure white fluffy ETN in a steel container, ofcourse with the camera at distance so you could get a full view of the reaction
but idk.. i usually dont have any good advices laying around..?

valmaramine - 11-2-2014 at 07:57

Anyway, thank you all.

valmaramine - 11-2-2014 at 08:07

Thank you so much, you're curious how to do it، antiswat?

Vikascoder - 11-2-2014 at 08:17

Use PETN instead of ETN because while melting there are90% chances that you ETN detonates and you have your limbs flying away

valmaramine - 11-2-2014 at 08:53

etn explosives is not standard and in my opinion not worth making. Petn not too high even for military applications. I still use a mortar fuze booster petn've never seen it. Rdx and tetryl, but I've seen it plenty.

roXefeller - 12-2-2014 at 04:25

bfesser: It might come across as k3wlish, but it may just be a language barrier, with a lack of experience too. Though I have reservations about his application.

valmaramine: Don't do what Antiswat said. He was being sarcastic, but you had difficulty reading it that way. He is implying that you might get a detonation while people online watch you die/dismember. By the way, what is your native language?
We are worried about spoonfeeding you too much, given the nature of your questions. Search for the things you are questioning about on google, but include site:sciencemadness.org. You are hoping that the experienced people here will give some educated advice, only they've already said it in the past and don't want to repeat it again. Just keep reading the old threads. You'll find what you want plus far more. You'll learn things that you never thought to ask. Remember that for boosters you are looking for something more sensitive than TNT (with power) but with less sensitivity than a primary; midrange.

valmaramine - 12-2-2014 at 06:29

No I do not melt etn. Worry. I listen to your words. I thought he would do it!!!

Ral123 - 12-2-2014 at 10:50

I've had an old ETN sample stay the whole summer on the sun in a black case, being melted everyday for weeks, with the experiment lasting the whole summer. Not only did I keep my window, but it didn't look too bad after all that.
The safety is in your head.

Turner - 12-2-2014 at 12:35

So the ETN did not explode Ral123? I have melted 2g of ETN in a plastic straw using hot water, and plenty of flame tests when the ETN would melt before burning, the only time I have seen it explode is when it's a small amount in contact with something metal or glass that is very hot.

Ral123 - 12-2-2014 at 12:54

The sample didn't look decomposed. It had a smell reminding HNO3, but very little.

Zyklon-A - 12-2-2014 at 12:56

That's cool, I'm planning on doing a test with ETN as soon as I can get some erythritol. Just leave about 2-3 grams outside (in a plastic container) for a long time, and see how long at will last.

Turner - 12-2-2014 at 13:13

What do you mean leave outside?

My biggest question that I cannot answer is this: When ETN is molten in larger amounts, is the risk of detonation higher? Because if it is that same as melting 500mg in a straw in hot water, the risk may not be as high as we have thought. People have casted 20g amounts of ETN before without explosion, just need to be clever and thoughtful with your heating method (hot water with a plastic vessel containing the ETN seems to work well).

Cast ETN is one of the most brisant AND powerful explosives, after we start testing 10-50g casts, then explore cast compositions of ETN and other explosives that by themselves are not castable, but otherwise have high crystal density like RDX and HMX, for example a melt of 35:65 -- ETN:RDX/HMX.

roXefeller - 12-2-2014 at 14:38

The trouble with ETN is it starts acting like a primary when its molten. Not instant detonation, but more sensitive. Would you be willing to stir 20-100 grams of primary? When you get larger amounts you might get more casual/complacent with it (for whatever reason) or not be able to give it the respect you can with 2g, and the negative side of accidental detonation gets worse than lost digits.

Bert - 12-2-2014 at 14:46

There was a person in Alaska? I recall who made several large batches of ETN, then melted them under hot water to produce a LARGE single cast charge. He had pictures of the process, which he posted to roguesci.org along with video of detonating that big block...

He claimed to purify his ETN by melting it in hot water and agitating the mass while adding baking soda to the water in a fashion similar to the way nitroglycerin has been neutralized by some, rather than dissolving in solvent and re-crystallizing. For the quantities he made, the solvent required would have run to many gallons and he didn't think it was worth the cost.

I don't know what became of him. Alaska is big enough so no one may have noticed the crater yet.

Turner - 12-2-2014 at 15:38

Yes melting ETN under water was also a possibility that crossed my mind. You can purify/stabilize TNT by melting it under water w/ some sodium sulfite and agitating it which makes the water turn reddish/brown, this removes unwanted TNT isomers I think.

[Edited on 12-2-2014 by Turner]

Turner - 12-2-2014 at 15:46

Quote: Originally posted by roXefeller

The trouble with ETN is it starts acting like a primary when its molten. Not instant detonation, but more sensitive. Would you be willing to stir 20-100 grams of primary? When you get larger amounts you might get more casual/complacent with it (for whatever reason) or not be able to give it the respect you can with 2g, and the negative side of accidental detonation gets worse than lost digits.

ETN acts like a primary when it isn't molten, SA*DS is less impact sensitive (as far as I can tell) than ETN but it is classified as a primary. I have done hammer and friction tests w/ ETN in molten state and noticed nothing interesting as far as change in impact sensitivity, but I should do a few more tests. If you ever heat ETN w/ a soft flame you'll notice it quickly melts, and then some time goes by before it heats enough to burn.

[Edited on 12-2-2014 by Turner]

Zyklon-A - 12-2-2014 at 16:08

Quote:

What do you mean leave outside?

To test the decomposition, my mom wont let me store any explosive in the house (Except maybe TNT, or other very stable material). I have a few places outside where conditions wont cause accidental detonation.

Turner - 12-2-2014 at 16:38

Will not decompose just because it is "left outside" do you mean left in a warm environment? Recrystalized and stabilized/nuetral ETN will not decompose in storage

Zyklon-A - 12-2-2014 at 18:01

I just wanted to try it to see how long it will last. I heard that even good ETN will decompose slowly, maybe a warm environment, it's not warm night now.

I guess it may not be worth the waist, it was just going to be a test.

valmaramine - 13-2-2014 at 02:16

Friends, etn What is your view about the press?(Higher density) ?

Fantasma4500 - 15-3-2014 at 08:28

it seems that people are not just lucky, but actually have been capable of doing even LARGE amounts decently well controlled
i think its sad to see that people keeps having these bias'es but then again... energetics accidents are often quite .. energetic

in fact a person on this forum melted a legit primary: TATP under water to then let it crystallize, im quite sure he used exactly this massive crystal to crush.. it was filmed when he crushed it, and even tho i was quite sure it was gonna blow up, it didnt act much differently than a big sugar crystal

i think Turner might have something to say with that the ETN will usually go bang when in contact with aluminium or glass, could this mean the detonation of this energetic is favored by presence of potential fuels??

i have an actual idea for testing this out...
sugar could be cast into a can of some sort, then have a pen or similar small stick like object inserted into it then let cool

the hole could then be filled up with ETN, which would then when inserted into a fire or similar get the ETN molten, and it would then be in full contact and fully sorrounded with sugar, perhaps they would melt together??
the idea of this is to see whether ETN can and or will undergo detonation if its molten and a potential fuel is present.

note: the hole should not go down to the bottom of the can

i think if this was done, it could give some pretty interesting results, perhaps smaller experiments done later on testing molten ETN with and without fuels present

i know for a fact that ETN powder mixed with P4 has a lower DDT unconfined as it slightly crackles, i did not see any video but i trust my source, not to mention i recall other members discussing ETN used as primary with aluminium powder mixed approx 95 5 ratio by weight to make the chances of it going HE to increase

packetforger - 15-3-2014 at 15:28

Bert: The chap in Alaska had an accident which nearly killed him (I can remember some of the details that I was told, can always elaborate if needed) and took down all his materials. The authorities got involved with the situation, I remember finding a couple of articles online about it. If anyone happened to mirror his videos I would love to get at them.

I recall some melt methods being discussed over at roguesci.org as a possible purification scheme (most memorable was the over-complicated bit of glassware a member designed for it, until recently I had that image on a USB key until I lost it), some of which seemed similar to purification of silicon via melting. The melting in hot water seemed somewhat practical also.

A method I have heard of involves dissolving the ETN in hot basified (i.e. bicarb or similar added to) methanol, and actually using a food processor or similar to mix it. This was done by someone over on roguesci with MHN with a decent degree of success, they were of the belief that the mechanical mixing helped a lot with neutralizing the ester, followed by crashing into cold water to crystallize and another recrystallization to get the desired crystal form you wanted.

It has been a long time since I as much as touched an energetic material, but IIRC methanol produced easier handled crystals than acetone when recrystallizing MHN. Acetone would produce a powdery mess that was almost impossible to load easily, wheras methanol produced a more free flowing crystals with a "feel" similar to granulated sugar.

Probably entirely off topic, I apologise...

ETN, proposal of procedure

zeroberts - 24-10-2015 at 09:26

Before proposing this process:
I apologize if I am posting flagrantly by some etiquettes, I have searched and found nothing specifically relating to this proposal and it's hard for me to tell (being new to contributing) how to tastefully amend my thoughts to existing topics. So. Here we are.

Much of my short work with ETN has mostly been in-lab versus a "synthesize, blow something up, repeat" approach. By dating my only other topic you know my tenure here and the relative brevity of my handling experience, but it has assuredly been quite involved. Based on my experiments with re crystallization I come seeking input on a process.

The objective of this process is to derive a highly purified product which is reliably very stable; existing in a clean form that is easy to handle and store, as well as convenient to work with.

The other night I had a dream... Only joking. I won't do that dream crap haha. Based on actual activities In the lab, the proposed process is as follows:

Rinse the filtered off crude ETN-- alternating between a solution of sodium bicarbonate in distilled water, then distilled water only. This is done thoroughly,and repeatedly until all foaming has apparently stopped; then once more with a long final rinse with distilled water.

The filter paper is laid out on paper towels and a second filter paper placed over the product. Another layer of paper towels is placed on top and the product is gently pressed to drive out excess moisture.

A hot water bath is prepared. The cake of crude ETN is gently broken up by hand and stirred into alcohol, deliberately over saturating the solution so as to have undissolved ETN swirling around as stirred. A vessel is prepared, containing very cold water (no ice), the volume of which is to be any excess of 10x the total volume of the ETN/alcohol mixture.

The beaker containing this mixture is then clamped and placed in the hot water bath and very gently stirred. The milky appearance of the mixture will give way to clarity as the temperature increases, at which point (proportionally dependent quantity of) sodium bicarbonate is added and stirred in. When the temperature has reached 61c the mixture is removed from the hot water bath and gently poured into the previously prepared cold water. The vessel is then refrigerated.

Due to the alcohol, the temperature is able to fall below 0 without freezing which (by my understanding anyway) will make any unprecipitated ETN less readily soluble. But even above 0 a white disk forms at the bottom of the vessel. This disk is comprised of small hard beads and the disk itself is rigid enough to be retrieved whole from the liquid.

A hot water bath is prepared again and the disk is dried gently by hand (it is mild in composition and will break or crumble if handled too aggressively) then broken up gently by hand. The pieces are placed in a beaker then melted via hot water bath.

The molten ETN is poured out on a sheet and allowed to cool. Residual moisture from the disk will separate readily from the molten ETN and therefore remain beaded up on the cooled sheet of ETN, and can be gently dabbed away with a paper towel.

The solidified sheet of ETN has an ivory color in my experience, and is patterned with overlapping starburst shapes comprised of long needles (apparently the natural crystal structure of ETN). The sheet is then gently broken up by hand into small "rocks"' which seems an appropriate term as at this point it certainly resembles crack. the rocks are laid out on paper until the slight alcohol smell is gone.

Thus concluding the proposed process

This rock form is most suitable for my needs. They store easily and are very convenient to work with. I've done a lot of hammer testing of the rocks vs crude product and the difference in sensitivity and potency (though admittedly difficult to quantify through just hitting things with hammers) is surprisingly stark. The rock form requires a much more rigid back surface and notably more force to set off by striking it, and can be nearly deafening in even minuscule quantities.

Thank you to anybody who has made it this far and please any notes or chemical insights are most welcome in refining technique.

Note: the liquid from which the disk was retrieved still contains ETN, which can be processed out. Waste not.

[Edited on 24-10-2015 by zeroberts]

OneEyedPyro - 24-10-2015 at 11:41

Allowing an excess of undissolved ETN in the solvent probably isn't the best idea, simply adding the ETN after heating would be safer.

Also, one recrystallization won't remove all impurities so two if not three recrystallizations is best.
I like to do the first one with 91% isopropanol as the solvent then crash into a cold solution of tap water and bicarb followed by a recrystalliztion with methanol then crash in a cold solution of distilled water and 2% urea.
This gives a product with very good storage stability that melts to a clear color.

hissingnoise - 24-10-2015 at 11:41

Quote:

Thank you to anybody who has made it this far and please any notes or chemical insights are most welcome in refining technique.

Stop this Darwin Award-chasing practice of melting ETN for a start ─ if you continue, the explosive will detonate in your face at some point!

zeroberts - 24-10-2015 at 14:16

Quote: Originally posted by OneEyedPyro

Allowing an excess of undissolved ETN in the solvent probably isn't the best idea, simply adding the ETN after heating would be safer.

Also, one recrystallization won't remove all impurities so two if not three recrystallizations is best.

Suggested amendment to process:
"Heat alcohol first then add ETN to the preheated alcohol"?

Also, my own fastidiousness prompts recrystallizing a second time but for the sake of my written procedure I will no longer regard this as a "me" thing but SOP.

Lastly, to hissingnoise:
Please do not interpret the following as cockiness or argument. I am here to learn; and discussion of data and fact cultivates understanding. Additionally, melting ETN is a controversial subject with many schools of thought, but little if any recorded data to provide hardline tolerances. So it is respectfully that I posit these points for review:
•Careful observation of temperature is intended to prevent the exceeding of ETN's melting point. A primary safety measure relying on physical property.
•Strict use of a hot water bath (and only hot water, ever) for heating is intended to be a safer and more gradual means of applying heat while also acting as a safeguard against dangerous temperature ranges, as the entire apparatus operates at temperatures well below the known deflagration temperature of ETN.

While I concede that precaution on principle has merit, there seems to be no definitive data behind an aversion to melting ETN.
Again, not arguing with you. And working with molten ETN feels like the grim reaper is watching me work over my shoulder. But then again my mentor in building fireworks taught me to feel that way when handling anything that burns faster than a wet rag.
Data data data. I kindly appreciate any data leading to a conclusion on the safety of melting ETN

aga - 24-10-2015 at 14:56

I like Bert.

Pretty sure most of the other members do too.

zeroberts would be Bad choice of username IMHO, seeing as it targets a specific member, also a moderator.

Let me guess ... zephrahim roberts ... zenaide roberts, you Wild Dove !

zeroberts - 24-10-2015 at 16:48

Woww At first I was worried I had done something to offend and tried to smooth things over somehow. Then I realized what you meant haha.

My name isn't targeting Bert, it's comparing myself to Bert. I am worth zero berts

And no it's just Zach nothing so... Dovey..?

Bert - 24-10-2015 at 18:04

Quote:

I am worth zero berts

"berts" are not an SI unit. Not yet, anyhow.

This is probably going to get merged with one of the (many) pre existng ETN threads. OP may want to suggest which one...

Hawkguy - 24-10-2015 at 18:06

Add the ETN to water, melt it by heating up the water, and cool it. This forms little rocks of ETN. This might be a more effective route, although usually some water is trapped in the rocks and they have to be broken up.

zeroberts - 24-10-2015 at 19:01

This thread has become. Amazing. I'll give the water process a go.

Also has anybody come to offer any definitive quantifiable data regarding ETNs sensitivities and tolerances in a molten state? This is one I would really like to see put to bed. Some say melt to your hearts content. Some say never melt. I'm starting to see a lot of the Ford-Chevy paradigm.

A well pointed search and diligent reading through these boards turns up plenty of well sourced and cited data that lands on the pro-melt side. I'm not being belligerent here Im just saying raise your hand if you melt this stuff and keep your hand up if you would still melt it once somebody ponied up the data to show that the physical properties were not conducive to doing so *safely*

Hawkguy - 24-10-2015 at 19:25

It depends how pure your ETN is I guess, otherwise it might decompose on heating.

NeonPulse - 25-10-2015 at 15:37

Zeroberts, why exactly is the molten rock form more convenient? A nicely Recrystallized ETN batch can produce a dense compact free flowing crystal powder which in my opinion would be more user friendly as wel as being easier to fire. Another point is the nitration media, if mixed acid is used the results will be a more pure product than using a nitrate salt which leaves a sulfate salt as an impurity.
Individual crystals show decomposition more readily too.
is always the possibility it may fire when molten in contact with aluminium especially,but otherwise I have melted it in amounts no more than 15g and remotely just in case, except for the time I made a 22g melt casting in combination with PETN as outlined in a post by Mr anonymous found in the last 2 or 3 pages of this board. That was a nerve wracking procedure with very good results. These days though if I want a meltable explosive is make TNT and use it as pentolite or with RDX.
The risk is always present with ANY energetic material and if provoked they may bite back - hard.

OneEyedPyro - 25-10-2015 at 16:27

All the accidents involving ETN I've ever heard of are full of bad procedure or just plain stupidity, I alway see people bring up that guy who foolishly heated ETN in a test tube over an open flame which then detonated as if to imply it's proof that melting ETN is a bad idea...

As long as your ETN is acid free and you use a setup where the ETN can't get too hot I don't see the issue. Many here have a deep rooted superstitious fear of casting ETN but there comes a time when you need to seperate the overly catious bullshit and speculation from the reality of the matter.

My testing shows ETN at 65C to be noticably less impact sensitive than NG, I used to vigorously shake NG with water in a sep funnel to help purify it and I still have all my fingers

[Edited on 26-10-2015 by OneEyedPyro]

Aurium - 25-10-2015 at 17:46

Quote:

As long as your ETN is acid free and you use a setup where the ETN can't get too hot I don't see the issue. Many here have a deep rooted superstitious fear of casting ETN but there comes a time when you need to seperate the overly catious bullshit and speculation from the reality of the matter.

That's true. Many times I am overzealous with ETN, maybe with no reason, due to the stories of accidents when melting it.
The thing with ETN is the novelty lack of knowledge about its behavior.

Also something that gets on my nerves is, when I finish my synthesis and go to wash everything at the sink, some leftover ETN gets carried away by the water into the sink's water exit.
I have the fear of enough ETN accumulating in the pipes and exploding for no reason.
I don't know if there a better way to wash my glassware, or if I should even be concerned.

Tsjerk - 26-10-2015 at 05:49

500mg of ETN molten in a plastic vail using a water bath... OK, I could see that happening using a long stick and a big enough water bath so you don't blow it up (still you have the problem of boiling water flying everywhere).

But 50 grams? That sounds like asking for a surgeon looking for shrapnel in places you don't want shrapnel to be in the first place or just plain suicide.

OneEyedPyro - 26-10-2015 at 09:11

Tsjerk, what makes you so sure melting ETN carries any risk of detonation? It still takes a firm whack with a hammer to set off molten ETN.
Many on here won't touch a gram of molten ETN with a long pole but they have no issues with handling NG, it's ironic because NG is significantly more sensitive than molten ETN...

zeroberts - 26-10-2015 at 17:19

Quote: Originally posted by NeonPulse

Zeroberts, why exactly is the molten rock form more convenient?

Call it a long standing habit from building fireworks I guess. Grains > powder, in the fireworkers mindset.

Microtek - 27-10-2015 at 06:25

I think the practise of breaking up a cast block of ETN (by hand) is a little iffy. If I was to do something similar, I would heat a beaker of water to ca. 70-80 C with fast magnetic stirring, add the moist, purified ETN directly into the water, adjust the stirring speed until a suitable droplet size had been attained and then cool the mix with continued stirring. This would likely result in ETN prills of the desired size, without any grinding, and without melting the ETN dry.
Additionally, the dispersion of the molten ETN droplets probably reduces the sensitivity markedly. NG agitated in water in this manner reportedly cannot be initiated with a number 8 detonator.

[Edited on 27-10-2015 by Microtek]

zeroberts - 6-11-2015 at 07:22

Return and report, deriving prills from cooling molten ETN stirred in water:

This method appears fairly effective. While the hot water/molten ETN were being stirred distinct round droplets of ETN could be observed swirling in the beaker. High speeds whipped it into a frenzy of tiny droplets while slow speeds were unable to adequately agitate it so some tuning was needed.
I attempted cool the water while it was stirring by slowly adding room temperature water with a wash bottle, but I was too aggressive; resulting in several globular masses.
Another process was attempted, cooling again with water added from a wash bottle but at a more gradual pace; results coming closer to the desired prills, though still globular and varied in size.

Tonight I will allow the water to cool naturally to observe the results more patiently.

Aside from rate of cooling and its effect on resulting form; the crystal pieces are much harder than when ETN is simply melted and poured. Which means they will be even cleaner to handle. Which is a large motivator in this process.

Bert - 6-11-2015 at 08:18

Perhaps an ultrasonic transducer on the water filled beaker combined with rapid stirring could get you REALLY fine prills?

zeroberts - 6-11-2015 at 14:11

Im shooting for larger than that would give me for sure haha. That would be.. Thoroughly prilled.
Also for my own reference: is ETN typically odorless? Or should I be concerned by the slight.. I guess.. "mulchy" smell I'm detecting

Aurium - 6-11-2015 at 15:07

I'v had true recrystalized ETN and "fake" recrystalized ETN, as in dissolved in acetone, then letting the acetone evaporate.
The good white recrystlized ETN had no smell, however the faked one did smell quite a bit. I can't really describe the smell thou xD.

Since this thread turned out to be about making ETN, has anybody here ever used some other method of neutralizing the ETN other than with Sodium Bicarb?
This because Sodium Bicarb. causes the ETN to inflate leaving me with a foam impossible to handle, making a huge huge mess.
I'd guess one can use ammonia but the only method I have of measuring pH is those pool indicators, a liquid test to mix with the water, or a solid test strip that changes color.
Hey, if anyone has experience with this method please do comment.

zeroberts - 6-11-2015 at 15:37

I'm not saying it stinks up the place you really have to get down on it to smell it at all. Most mysterious given that it is properly recrystallized, twice; this isn't some back yard shake and bake ETN here.

And maybe it's just me; but for me, the foamy mess you mention is manageable if you are using a filter of appropriate size for the quantity you are producing. Thorough rinsing with a wash bottle tends to abate the issue.

Update on the prilling method:
I have this process dialed in to get consistent results of very desirable quality. Nuanced but generally simple. Now to filter my notes into a procedure. This is exactly perfect and thank you to those contributing to a practical means to my end.

[Edited on 7-11-2015 by zeroberts]

OneEyedPyro - 6-11-2015 at 18:59

ETN should be completely odorless so I'm not really sure what you've got going on there but it's obviously not pure ETN.

Giving the ETN a few good rinses with water before hitting it with the bicarb solution will help keep the foaming down.

[Edited on 7-11-2015 by OneEyedPyro]

zeroberts - 7-11-2015 at 00:40

Whatever the smell was its gone now after processing the ETN into prills. Which I figured I'd toss up a picture in case there was any interest in the outcome of that venture. I guess you could say I'm pretty satisfied with the results.

OneEyedPyro - 7-11-2015 at 01:48

That looks quite nice and uniform, good job. I would also be satisfied

It should make for a powerful, quick to set up and very cap sensitive booster material.

I wonder what the density is. I may have to try this myself just for the easy/mess free handling.

PHILOU Zrealone - 16-11-2015 at 15:43

The following links are related:
entolite 1

entolite 2

nitro-genes - 16-11-2015 at 16:51

Cool to see this actually works

A very small amount of detergent may also help to reduce droplet size, it will likely further add a hydrophilic layer around the droplets that prevents fusion into larger prills upon collision.

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=10575&...

Be sure to do this remote though as desribed above, molten ETN at 80 degrees C may be as much as 10 times (or even more) more sensitive than ETN at normal temperatures, it may be similar to going crazy on NG with a stirrer bar.

[Edited on 17-11-2015 by nitro-genes]

Microtek - 18-11-2015 at 03:09

I don't think you have to be overly concerned about sensitivity as long as you add the ETN to already agitated water. As I mentioned in my other post, NG is less sensitive to initiation than pressed TNT when it is suspended as droplets in agitated water (from Urbanski, IIRC). Dumping the energetic into hot water and THEN beginning agitation could very well be dangerous.

I think the greatest benefit from doing this would be as a way of making mixtures such as ETN/TNT, ETN/PETN or ETN/RDX (or HMX) without running too great a risk.

As nitrogenes suggests, you could play with surfactants and other additives (stabilizers perhaps) to the aqueous phase.

[Edited on 18-11-2015 by Microtek]

Bert - 18-11-2015 at 06:14

Close up photo of prills on graph paper or with other appropriate scale?

What is crush strength like on these...

From what I can see on a tiny screen, these grains are agglomerated "chunks" comprising a couple to a dozen or so of the small spherical prills?

nitro-genes - 18-11-2015 at 16:19

Adding powdered ETN (with a little detergent) slowly to the hot water and waiting for the amount to melt before making a new addition may be safest indeed. Thanks for posting that info on the sensitivity of NG/water mixtures. In my memories however, NG makes these fine dispersion mixtures with water pretty easily with very small resulting droplet sizes. One would think that the size of the droplets may be an important factor determining sensitivity. Like Bert suggests, it may be loosely bound aggregates, but if not, surfactants may still increase safety here, as well as improve product.

zeroberts - 22-11-2015 at 08:31

In my case; as the water broke about 70 degrees it was removed from heat and the ETN was added.
Allow it to melt and sit on the bottom of the beaker. No stirring was applied while melting, only gentle tipping to allow the droplets to combine into one mass.
As the temperature is approaching 61, begin stirring at a slow speed. The stir bar will kick up globs of the molten mass at slow speeds, so the specific speed needed to be "dialed up to" gradually. I stopped adjusting once the desired size of droplets could be observed spinning around. By this time the temperature is under 60.
I found that 57 degrees was a good time to pour cold tap water in as quickly as possible without disrupting the stirring.
Accelerated stirring immediately following addition of cold water prevents droplets from sticking together as they solidify. You can hear the difference when the ETN becomes solid.
Filter, dry, enjoy on toast or with your favorite muffin etc...
I'm not at home with my notes or procedures so I apologize I couldn't be more informative about this process at the moment. When I do get home I'll post a photo to provide more scale.
As for the prill composition: some are an aggregate of smaller particles but many are quite solid and rather hard. In fact, the hardness of each prill is notably more than poured-then-cooled ETN I have worked with.

Microtek - 24-11-2015 at 01:23

Quote:

No stirring was applied while melting, only gentle tipping to allow the droplets to combine into one mass.

I think that this may be quite dangerous. As nitrogenes said, the desensitizing effect of agitating in water most probably stems from the small droplet size which makes both initiation and propagation difficult. Allowing the ETN to agglomerate on the bottom, removes these safety measures and is probably no safer than melting it dry. It should melt while suspended so that the globule size is kept small. Whether heat is applied before or after the ETN is added is probably not very important.