Hey, I've been researching smokeless powder, which is none the less the norm for firearm rounds, so I looked up a video for the disassembly of a small
round and came across this. It shows how to take apart a 22LR round, and get the propellant from it. The deflagration of the powder at the end clearly shows that they
typically contain a smokeless composition. Anyway, my question is what type of smokeless powder do they usually contain? It is clearly nitrocellulose
based, but what else does it contain? Is it like Poudre B? That's the way it looks to me.Motherload - 28-1-2014 at 20:30
It is a single base propellant which primarily consist of nitrocellulose. Some graphite powder, diphenylamine, flame moderators and ID taggants are
added.
What exact composition will vary from manufacturer depending on what it is used for and who makes it etc..
There is hundreds of different powders out there and can be purchased for reloading purposes.
Some are double base ... Contain some nitroglycerin or DNT.
Nitroglycerin content can be as high as 40% and DNT upto 15%
Triple base powders contain Nitroguanidine as well but are not available commercially.
P.S. That guy in the video has no clue of what he is doing.
It's not black powder it's smokeless powder and rimfire cartridges do contain primer
It's not in a seperate cup ..... Just "painted" along the rim where he is holding with pliers.
Buying powder is much cheaper.
[Edited on 29-1-2014 by Motherload]Ral123 - 28-1-2014 at 22:48
I think these powders detonate with quite high velocity, but they need strong caps or boosters.APO - 29-1-2014 at 16:34
So where would I buy powder?Motherload - 29-1-2014 at 17:33
Most gun stores sell reloading supplies.
You have to have some knowledge about reloading in order for them to sell it to you. roXefeller - 29-1-2014 at 18:22
I think the locale dictates whether the local gun store will sell reloading components. Before I moved states a few years back I was in a firearm
friendly state and the local store was excellent. But in this new place, much less is sold locally. Last time I went into a 'gun store', I was only
able to find about three single pound bottles of blackpowder for sale. I wouldn't even call this a reloading supply. Since you are in California it
is going to be hit or miss. You'll need to UTFSE to find out what kind of powder you are needing for your application and then buy it online like
most people are forced to (from component suppliers). As a community we reload ammunition because it is cheaper per round (or for the same quality)
so we tend to buy in bulk and pinch pennies. That's why the mail order companies are the norm, you can buy 8 lbs of powder, 1000 bullets, 5000
primers, and any associated items, all the while leveraging the economics of scale. That way when you fire 300 rounds each day at the target range it
doesn't cost so much.
Search. This forum might have info for pyrotechnic applications (many people source their NC from smokeless powder) and other reloading forums will
have firearm related applications. As Motherload says, you'll need to have some knowledge about what you are buying it for, because there are dozens
of brands and thousands of different powders.
This is all getting too close the the rule against leading people where to source reagents.Bert - 30-1-2014 at 10:12
So much wrongness in one space- The video linked in the OP might implode from the sheer denseness of the author.
As far as what propellants are used in .22 ammo? Every modern brand I know of uses double base (majority of makeup will be nitrocellulose, with some
nitroglycerin and various other additives).
A good clue would be that the grains look like little balls or slightly flattened blobs- All ball powders I know of are at least double based, a few
are triple. Ball powders are made by agitating a "lacquer" of NC and NG and various other addititives dissolved in a low boiling solvent in a water
tank while heating the water to drive off the solvent. The lacquer becomes dispersed into little drops in the water which harden into grains as the
solvent is driven out of them by the hot water. Additional layers of different materials may be coated onto the balls while still suspended in the
water bath to create different burn rate profiles. The balls may be flattened by rollers to modify the burning speed as well. This is the CHEAPEST
technology for powder manufacture. .22LR is mostly cheap ammo... And so often uses such double base ball or flattened ball powders.
Powders looking like flakes, either round or square may be either double or single based, but the majority contain some NG. These are sometimes used
in 22LR, often used in shotgun shells. Some lower velocity cast bullet hand loads for center fire rifle & pistol use fast burning flake powders
too. The "Poudre B" refered to in the OP was a single based flake powder developed in the late 1800's.
The limited size of the .22 rim fire case pretty much requires a high energy per volume from the powder to achieve decent performance. The use of NG
can significantly increase the energy per volume over straight NC.
Most modern straight NC (single base) powders sold in the USA are in the form of short hollow tubes or "sticks", and I've never seen a .22LR loaded
with that grain geometry. In my reloading experience, single base stick powders tend to be used in center fire rifle and pistol rounds. If you MUST
obtain NC from ammunition, all the "IMR" series of powders are single base- But you'd be better off using ping pong balls if you just need a little
bit.
As far as obtaining modern powders, anyone in the USA at least 18 years old who could buy ammunition could buy smokeless powder- Even mail order it,
if it's not to be found locally. It would be far cheaper to obtain it in bulk than scavenge from perfectly good (and recently scarce!) ammunition.
Black powder? In the USA, adults can buy up to 5lb. at a time with no federal paperwork IF it is to be used in antique or reproduction weapons for
"sporting or cultural uses". If you tell the clerk that you want it for any other use, the same powder requires a federal explosives license to
purchase. Some states and municipalities have additional restrictions beyond the federal ones.
[Edited on 30-1-2014 by Bert]APO - 30-1-2014 at 19:05
Ok, no need for the insult there, but thanks anyway.roXefeller - 30-1-2014 at 19:23
He didn't insult you, that was a very well informed reply. Be grateful. I don't want to risk a violation, so read through it a couple times, use
wikipedia for things like rimfire and centerfire, read it more and you should be set.Bert - 31-1-2014 at 08:16
Ok, no need for the insult there, but thanks anyway.
The YouTube comment section is where one should go for polite, reasoned, well informed commentary and technical information of course! EVERYONE knows
that~
[Edited on 31-1-2014 by Bert]APO - 31-1-2014 at 12:19
In what way is referring to me as "dense" not an insult?Bert - 31-1-2014 at 20:27
I refer to the author of the video as "dense". Are you the author of the video?APO - 1-2-2014 at 12:00
Oh, no I'm not. I misread what you wrote.Fantasma4500 - 2-2-2014 at 07:13
Sorbitol Hexa Nitrate
its said that this is often added to gunpowder, although i remember that gunpowder also have a sulfur like smell to it
anyhow smokeless gunpowder is said to be sort of hard to put to full detonation, supposing you would need a decent initiator if this was your goal,
although as its mostly NC and very likely with NG and SHN added it could be quite potent stuff
i actually think if you took the lot and wettened with acetone just before ''use'' it should absorb the shock alot better, as it should now be a sort
of thick paste
it has been up once or a few times on SM whether NC really does get more sensitive to initiation when wettened with simple water, i dont recall any
conclusive answers landing this question? my idea is that the water helps to absorb the shockwave alot better, and thus alot more ease of initiationHennig Brand - 2-2-2014 at 09:02
Regarding wet nitrocellulose, water provides a continuous liquid phase, throughout the explosive mass, which improves shock wave propagation (at least
this is my understanding). It also has the added benefit of increasing safety, by reducing the ignition hazard, while still being sensitive to the
shock from a blasting cap or booster.
Water probably also aids compaction, or it does at least for a lot of other materials and mixtures.
[Edited on 3-2-2014 by Hennig Brand]APO - 12-2-2014 at 22:03
I wasn't going to atempt a detonation, I don't have any proper equipment to make a very safe primary or reasonable booster right now. Additionally, I
don't have anywhere to do something like that since every field where I live is either private property, or is within 1000 feet of a school, and a
"civilian" having a anything classified as a firearm, destructive device, or explosive device within 1000 feet of a school is a felony.
