Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Methods for detonating insensitive tertiaries

Scientwisted - 4-1-2014 at 10:20

I need some input on how to reliably initiate detonation for insensitive tertiary EM.

I recently have procured a decent amount of AN that I intend to use for synthesis of this and that. Equally as important I want to use the AN as an oxidizer for different mixtures (ie. ANNMAL / ANFO / AN with sugar / AN mixed with other HE.)

At any rate it is difficult to do these experiments when I am even having trouble initiating AN/AL mix. I have tried 0.5 - 1.0 g amounts of HMTD. When I realized that was a bust I used about 0.1g of HMTD to initiate 1-2g of ETN as the cap, but it only blew open the containers (about 800g of ANNMAL mix) and scattered the mix about.

So to reliably initiate these mixes do I use more confinement, more material, or start working with booster? Please help a novice amateur.

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 4-1-2014 at 10:49

Pressed NHN can reach a density of around 1.7... at 1.7 NHN would have a detonation velocity near 8000ms. It might set AN off, however AN is too insensitive.

Its quite easy to prepare, this man seems like he have done it.

https://sites.google.com/site/ecpreparation/nickel-hydrazini...

[Edited on 4-1-2014 by DubaiAmateurRocketry]

Ral123 - 4-1-2014 at 12:11

Quote: Originally posted by DubaiAmateurRocketry  
Pressed NHN can reach a density of around 1.7... at 1.7 NHN would have a detonation velocity near 8000ms. It might set AN off, however AN is too insensitive.

Its quite easy to prepare, this man seems like he have done it.

https://sites.google.com/site/ecpreparation/nickel-hydrazini...

[Edited on 4-1-2014 by DubaiAmateurRocketry]

The man needs boosters, you recommend NHN...
Factors are condition of the components, density, amount, shape, confinement and others. ANAL is the easiest to set off.(assuming you're not just going to mix AN prills with Al turnings :D)

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 4-1-2014 at 12:28

NHN is really not bad, crystal densities of NHN can reach near 2.2, and it already have a vod of 8000 at 1.7... crystalline RDX is alright too.

Ral123 - 4-1-2014 at 12:46

The job of the primary is to initiate the base charge, everything else is unsafe. How can you insist on such dumb idea. ETN and EGDN make good hobby boosters.

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 4-1-2014 at 12:53

I said NHN because it is a very powerful primary at its crystalline density, it can achieve ETN's highest density VoD by simply pressing to 1.7g/cm^3 . Its crystalline density (2.2g/cm^3) might be over 9000 to 10,000ms. He can also try 5-nitrimino-tetrazole. It has Impact sensitivity 2J, VoD around 9500, and can be easily made from >98% HNO3 and 5-Amino-tetrazole, both of which are very easy to find. If you make it, preferably add a desiccant or use anhydrous HNO3, if the acid concentration is not enough and contain too much water, 5-Amino-tetrazolium Nitrate will form instead.


[Edited on 4-1-2014 by DubaiAmateurRocketry]

Scientwisted - 4-1-2014 at 13:17

That is interesting and thanks for the feedback so far. My problem lies that so far I only have components to make ETN and HMTD. So should I use ETN as a booster and if so how much and what confinement type?

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 4-1-2014 at 13:34

I've not played with ETN, but it have caused few accidents in the forum. to initiate AN you might want the most dense ETN, pressing or hammering might be dangerous. ETN dissolves in acetone, maybe you can re-try to crystallize ETN from that, the crystallized ones are far more dense than normal powdered form.

Scientwisted - 4-1-2014 at 14:49

I recrystallized my washed and neutralized ETN in anhydrous lab grade methanol which yielded large needle like crystals. I really don't think crystal density is the problem (as far as ETN goes)
I will try pressing more ETN into a slightly larger container like you mentioned dubi. I am trying this tomorrow with AN mixed with nitromethane and methanol. I will post the results.

If I wanted to use that primary/secondary you spoke of NHN how difficult is that to make and do you need specialized equipment? Also I heard hydrazine or hydrazoic acid should be avoided.

Ral123 - 4-1-2014 at 15:33

You may want to add sensitizer or about 50g cast ETN booster.

roXefeller - 4-1-2014 at 18:59

Its not dubi, its Dubai.

As far as his comment on getting a denser crystal, you can pack the ETN as hard as you want, his point is pressing fines won't give the packing density that pressing large needles will give. You'll want the best density you can. Can you measure the average bulk density of your ETN after packing to give us a clue? You're making ETN, any chance of making NG? It would make a stronger booster. And what mesh of AL are you using? Would a ETN/AL blend work better for the booster?

Scientwisted - 4-1-2014 at 22:36

My apologies "Dubai"

Good point roXefeller, I will try pressing the needles (which are rather large IMO) into the modified cap with booster setup I am going to try. The plastic tube I am using for the ETN booster is graduated so with that and my scale I should be able to roughly calculate a density. I also think that the Al is a good idea being that the ETN has a positive oxygen balance, a small amount should improve the performance. I use pyro grade German Dark 600 mesh for all my aluminum needs. As far as the NG goes it sounds like an interesting synthesis to be honest though I am a little scared probably has something to do with the stigma as it's portrayed on TV and the movies. I do have most of the lab-ware except a seporatory funnel which I may or may not need? And I am a lab tech so I am familiar with most of the equipment, general safety, and overall good technique so I feel comfortable I could do a little more research and give it the "old college try".

Is it really difficult to detonate this stuff or am I just being stupid. I doesn't seem like others have this much trouble with AN mixes, what's up with that!? Further more is there anything else I could do to increase my chances? Like what about different types of confinement? Roughly how much material would be needed to approach critical mass? Is there anything else like pressing my booster in such a fashion that it would have a conical void in the bottom is produce something like the munroe effect to increase the power of the detonation wave. Feed back and CONSTRUCTIVE crititsim (being I'm a sensitive man) is always appreciated.

underground - 5-1-2014 at 00:19

Yes, this is a good idea, maybe a small shaped charge made out of some gramms of booster like ETN/NG would increase the possibility to detonate insensitive explosives like AN based explosives.

nux vomica - 5-1-2014 at 01:06

What ratios are you useing in your annmal, i have never had a misfire useing a cap with .75g etn, .25g mf , you sure its nm. nux

Scientwisted - 5-1-2014 at 06:00

That is a great question. And no it is not pure nm, it is a type of hobby race car fuel w/ 25% nm and the rest is comprised of methanol and light lubrication oils. My logic was that since it is all hydrocarbons in the remaining 75% of the fuel should work, I have been known to be wrong before. I have tried making this 3 times, 2 of the times I used ANNMAL in slightly different proportions and the other time was just ANNM. If anyone know some ratio that has worked well for them please share.
I am leaving now to try the ANNM again with a larger booster and slightly larger quantity on the ANNM mix. Results to follow.



[Edited on 5-1-2014 by Scientwisted]

nux vomica - 5-1-2014 at 15:07

Sciencetwisted i bought my NM from a hobby shop its 100% NM and i use the ratio of 70% AN, 23%NM,7%AL by weight, your NM is to dilute and it might only detonate only with a booster not a no 8 cap. cheers Nuxy

[Edited on 5-1-2014 by nux vomica]

Turner - 5-1-2014 at 15:13

I highly doubt that your 25%NM RC fuel would detonate by itself, but yes it could probably be used similar to a fuel oil as in ANFO and the NM would probably add to the affect.


Video your explosion and post it even if it doesn't work.

[Edited on 5-1-2014 by Turner]

[Edited on 5-1-2014 by Turner]

Scientwisted - 5-1-2014 at 17:34

Well I'm back and the setup and the explosion were interesting to say the least.

I will begin by explaining that I was a little rushed to meet a time frame at a specific location to do this. As a result I was not methodical and did not take exact measurement when I should have... sorry. I started off with 800g of dense prilled AN (got it from a reactive target supplier) and mixed it with 200g of the hobby race car fuel I posted previously in a plastic zip-lock bag and let it sit.
I work in a lab I got these neat graduated plastic vials with screw on caps. I used one of these tubes and a small metal rod to pack down the ETN after every addition and lightly tapped with a hammer. As dense as I could get it, I filled it up to the 5mL line and topped it of with some HMTD. I then screwed on the cap which had the fuse in. After that I just filled an empty plastic bottle with the AN/fuel mix. I reserved about 200 mL of the AN mix and added a couple grams of ETN mixed that together and topped the mix off with that. (real scientific right?) My thinking was the ETN would help propagate the shock wave. I the gently pressed the primary/booster in the top and lit the fuse.

I know what you all are thinking. What was the density of the ETN pressed how much HMTD so on and so forth. Again I was in a hurry I'm sorry. My friend whose property I did this on wanted me to dispatch a couple of pumpkins as well.

I will upload the vid tomorrow which is a nifty explosion with a lot of orange mist, but from what I can tell it was only a partial detonation.

underground - 5-1-2014 at 18:46

Try that one, also it looks the most powerful AN mixture you can ever make

Ral123 - 5-1-2014 at 23:17

You've cheaped out on the booster, the aluminium and the math about the correct ratios.

Scientwisted - 6-1-2014 at 17:34

Yes well, cheap as it was I didn't have enough Al mesh to make ANNMAL 70:23:7 respectively.
I also thought about what Nux and Turner said about the quality of my NM and I feel they are right. So I ordered more AL 600 mesh and pure NM off line. Didn't forget about the vid just don't have time today.

Do you fellas think I should be activating the AN or doesn't it matter?

Turner - 6-1-2014 at 18:18

If you did activate the AN, it would be slightly easier to detonate and get a full detonation because you are lowering the density overall.

I have dense AN prills and if I ever detonate an AN composition with what I have, I will use a booster.

Scientwisted - 7-1-2014 at 08:16

Thank you for the input so far. Lets get theoretical here, Ral123 mention something about sensetizers, what are those and are different ones better for different setups?
What are some other contributing factors to complete and thorough det? Some on mentioned something about a 50g cast ETN booster. I don't know about you guys but I typically don't even make 50g in one synth I would hate to use it all in one trial. Especially since the NOX gases are nasty. Is there any way to improve the performance of the booster with out acually massively increasing bulk? or is bigger always better when dealing w/ tertiaries? Any thoughts?

Scientwisted - 16-1-2014 at 17:39

Sorry to double dip but I need to know if anyone can shed some light on a question. I was under the impression (incorrectly obviously) that If even a small amount of AN mixes were detonated the amount next to that would get enough energy to detonate and it would just propagate all the way through the container. So why did it appear that only half of the AN mix detonated and the rest didn't? Do I really need to overdrive the f*#k out of the detonation? As always input is greatly apreciated.

Turner - 16-1-2014 at 19:30

In industry, there is a reason they use 2 lb cast boosters, they could be cheap about it and just use 2 lbs of TNT, but they use 2 lbs of pentolite (that is half PETN in the TNT) to increase detonation pressure, brisance and reliable initiation. 2 lb of cast explosive is 900 grams. Or about the volume of a can of soup.

If you have two separate barrels/containers of ANFO, if one detonates, the other will as long as they are touching or very close, but insensitive, secondary/tertiary explosives aren't usually initiated by placing the igniting charge next to the main charge. Ideally, the explosive starts in the center and goes out in all directions through the material.


Don't cast ETN unless you know exactly what you are doing, can be extremely dangerous. Pressed or even PBX boosters do the job.

Ral123 - 16-1-2014 at 23:45

Quote: Originally posted by Scientwisted  
I was under the impression (incorrectly obviously) that If even a small amount of AN mixes were detonated the amount next to that would get enough energy to detonate and it would just propagate all the way through the container.

Exactly, but the small amount is about 400g or more for non ideal anfo.

underground - 17-1-2014 at 01:44

Just add some NM into your AN mixtures, try to have a zero OB and you will be ok