Sciencemadness Discussion Board - KMnO₄ Listed as Precursor

KMnO₄ Listed as Precursor

SM2 - 19-12-2013 at 13:19

I had no idea, until reading several threads here, that potassium permanganate was considered such a great threat. I mean it's somewhere on DEA list, but so is pretty much everything else. The only reference I can remember were it's uses perhaps in cocaine production, but the thresholds were in multi-Kg quantities.

Enlighten me, please, if anyone knows why this reagent is (apparently) so demonized. Other than the fact it looks a lot like I2.

[<a href="u2u.php?action=send&username=bfesser">bfesser</a>: changed subject from "KMN04"]

[Edited on 13.2.14 by bfesser]

Pyro - 19-12-2013 at 13:45

it's a strong oxidizer...

bfesser - 19-12-2013 at 13:51

Quote: Originally posted by SM2

I had no idea, until reading several threads here, that potassium permanganate was considered such a great threat.

What threads? I've never been given this impression by anything I read here.

Metacelsus - 19-12-2013 at 14:01

It can be used to make methcathinone from pseudoephedrine. (Again, isn't restricting the pseudoephedrine enough?!?)

SM2 - 19-12-2013 at 14:24

Quote: Originally posted by Cheddite Cheese

It can be used to make methcathinone from pseudoephedrine. (Again, isn't restricting the pseudoephedrine enough?!?)

Are you highly confident that that is the main reason? We never hear of KAT devestating communities, or methcathinone face. I believe it's the method which uses lots of water, and just a tiny amount of oxidizer

Bot0nist - 19-12-2013 at 14:49

It can be employed to make benzaldehyde from a common solvent...

elementcollector1 - 19-12-2013 at 16:12

Probably its use as a common oxidizing agent. I'm guessing the restriction has to do with k3wls who want to use it "for to maek things go BOOM."

Bot0nist - 19-12-2013 at 17:12

True, but I dont think thats why the DEA would list it...

woelen - 20-12-2013 at 00:13

KMnO4 is a strong oxidizer and that makes it more watched than other chemicals. Many oxidizers can be used to make benzaldehyde from toluene or benzyl alcohol, but is that a real problem. Where I live, benzaldehyde is easy to obtain (it has uses in small amounts because of its lovely smell). Only if you buy large quantities things will look fishy.

Nicodem - 20-12-2013 at 05:45

Among the thousands of other uses, potassium permanganate is also used in the processing of the crude coca leaves extract as an oxidant that destroys some unsaturated non-cocaine alkaloids. This treatment allows for the better purity of the final product. For this reason, the USA's drug enforcement agency tries to regulate its international traffic, apparently for reducing the quality of the black market cocaine (I doubt that reducing its purity is going to lower consumption, but this is just my irrelevant opinion). I guess it is just one of the unusual policies the drug enforcement agency has for enforcing drugs.

http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/coca2cocaine...

PS: SM2, note that the empirical chemical formula for potassium permanganate is KMnO₄ - it is not "KMN04" as you seem to believe - Mn as a symbol for manganese, and it O for oxygen (instead of 0).

SM2 - 20-12-2013 at 06:38

Mn - just wasn't paying attention Nicodem. Well, this certainly clears things up. I had known (like A Anhydride) that there were export restrictions, just as there are for MEK, apparently. But the three reasons mentioned, taken together reasonably demonstrate why it is a chemical of concern.

Anyone remember when Remove was Removed? I wonder how that happened. Did Sally just sell out of stock, or did they have to pick it from the shelves.

jock88 - 20-12-2013 at 13:14

Its used for cleaning boilers. You can get it sometimes at a pump shop or boiler shop

Potassium permanganate

PeetPb - 13-2-2014 at 06:21

Hi,
About a year ago I bought a kilo of KMnO4 from a chemical company. After a year they mailed me a form that I had to fill out which included things like what did I use it for who issued the permission (WTF?!) and stuff like that. After a bit of searching I found the regulation they were referring to (here). KMnO4 is listed as a Category II of precursors to drugs. My question is ... is this normal ? I mean KMnO4 is readily available in pharmacies as a disinfectant. Do they have to scare the shit out of people ? And secondly what on Earth is KMnO4 used in drug manufacture for ? .. I seriously question the relevance of this regulation .. mainly because category III includes things like HCl, toluene, MEK and ether .

elementcollector1 - 13-2-2014 at 06:28

It's presumably used as an oxidizing agent - more info than that, I don't care to know.
Are you required to fill out the form?

PeetPb - 13-2-2014 at 06:38

Yes I deduced as much ... I don't plan to use it in preparation of drugs obviously ... I just can't imagine why would one use such an aggressive non-selective reagent as KMnO4 in preparation of substances that are supposed to go INSIDE your body.

I had to fill out the form, however I obviously don't have any permission ... I wrote to them and the lady told me that I bought less than a hundred kilos so it's enough to fill out what for am I going to use it/ used it.

bfesser - 13-2-2014 at 06:40

Answer: "Scientific Research."
No need to give further detail.

Mailinmypocket - 13-2-2014 at 07:51

Quote: Originally posted by PeetPb

I just can't imagine why would one use such an aggressive non-selective reagent as KMnO4 in preparation of substances that are supposed to go INSIDE your body.

Have you ever noticed what reagents are used to synthesize some normal and legal medicines? Some are far more evil than potassium permanganate (which you can actually injest in small quantities when it is used to disinfect water) My bag of pretzels lists sodium hydroxide as an ingredient, speaking of harsh chemicals

[Edited on 13-2-2014 by Mailinmypocket]

SM2 - 13-2-2014 at 08:33

The Na0H readily turns into washing soda upon exposure to ambient air (C02, H0H). And the only way to make good NY street vendor pretzels, is by diping them in a vat of lye.

Personally, I think Nicodem is closest in hypothesis when I take into account all the information I am privy too (regarding permanganate controls). It's still somewhat of a queer thing in how certain chemicals are available in certain states/areas of US, whilst others are scarce. Where I live, one can purchase a 5 lb. pail of KMn04 as a de-ruster for ~$7.

I think the whole sham in regards to pseudo ephedrine is one stinking lie. I remember when companies who sold ephedrine sulphate tabs complained that next, DEA would restrict pseudo-ephedrine, and DEA responded that they had no such plans for doing so. The fact is, phenylepherine is NON-EFFICACIOUS. That's right! It just plain does not work as advertised. It does almost nothing. The most viable substitute for pseudo is a simple neti pot. Medicines like those contained in Afrin, build up tolerance very quickly, and after 3 days of use, the reverse tolerance can make your symptoms worse than they started out as.

There is no substitute for pseudo-ephedrine, and I feel like a stupid fool on rare occasion when I need to purchase an over price box of generic pseudo, and sign en triplicate, drivers license and all, because the authorities all know in their sick, Nixon, McCarthy Victorian minds, that anyone who purchases pseudo must be a meth cook. IDIOTS! Make something very comparable to pseudo, or make it freely available again. It's not like the average person will easily obtain iodine, red phosphorus, lithium, ect.

The current price for a 50Kg. bag of pseudoephedrine from India is just over $30USD. $10 of that is probably silly administrative fees, so $20 is probably more reflective of what the commodity price should be. I wonder what the black market price of pseudo is per 50Kg. bag. I'd say at-lease 1 dollar more than the $30 price!

PeetPb - 13-2-2014 at 08:56

Quote: Originally posted by Mailinmypocket

Quote: Originally posted by PeetPb

I just can't imagine why would one use such an aggressive non-selective reagent as KMnO4 in preparation of substances that are supposed to go INSIDE your body.

[Edited on 13-2-2014 by Mailinmypocket]

I was referring to the non-selectivity of KMnO4 rather than it's oxidizing properties. I think that after the oxidation of a complex molecule (such as many drugs are), there will be a lot of side products.

Chemosynthetic - 14-2-2014 at 19:54

I could gripe about some aspects of FDA ANDA guidelines for hours, I'm sure. Who knows, your impurities might healthily put you at hormesis threshold : ).

hydride_shift - 14-2-2014 at 20:23

Lol i just got some from the chemist today, im pretty sure its availible world wide OTC atleast in small amounts.

PeetPb - 15-2-2014 at 03:43

Yeah it's available in pharmacies (at least in Europe) as disinfectant or for water purification, however it is sold in packs of 10g and when I said in the pharmacy that I need about 10 packs the lady looked at me very strangely and started to explain how a tiny crystal is enough to disinfect a lot of water. And above all ... it's very overpriced a kilo in packs comes out around 50 euros or so .. I got the 1kg pack from a chemical company for about 7 euros ...

testimento - 18-2-2014 at 07:04

In my country you can end up in jail for buying certain chemicals from drugstore or chemical dealer, but you can buy them otc in customer products. Dont ask me why, but I got once raided by the state force for asking potassium nitrate from drug store. That was the last time I visited a drug store. Chemicals like ammonium nitrate, ammonium chloride, hexamine, zinc chloride, sodium acetate, sodium carbonate(yes...), sulfuric acid and most others are restricted and the sales must be reported.

[Edited on 18-2-2014 by testimento]

Interesting

HoH - 2-3-2014 at 21:29

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

KMnO4 is a strong oxidizer and that makes it more watched than other chemicals. Many oxidizers can be used to make benzaldehyde from toluene or benzyl alcohol, but is that a real problem.

Interesting. Could 30% H2O2 be used as a oxidizer in this specific reaction scheme as well or does the H2O in the 30% become problematic?

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

Where I live, benzaldehyde is easy to obtain (it has uses in small amounts because of its lovely smell). Only if you buy large quantities things will look fishy.

I think I read benzaldehyde is found rich in essential oils like bitter almond oil, and to a lesser degree, almond oil itself? It has been a while since I researched this topic. I am curious why potassium permanganate is the only mentioned oxidizer.

I don't think potassium permanganate would be a hassle to acquire, it is available. I am sure you are using it for something legit, but buying a lot might attract some attention. A few kg's.. probably no big deal.

[Edited on 3-3-2014 by HoH]

elementcollector1 - 2-3-2014 at 21:42

KMnO₄ is the only one mentioned because it is the most common, both among drug cooks, home chemists and explosives enthusiasts.
It's not at all a hassle, if you know the right suppliers.

prof_genius - 22-4-2014 at 10:07

I was recently able to purchase KMnO4 from a pharmacy in Poland. When I asked for it in the Netherlands, the lady behind the counter just told me I needed a prescription. I also visited a Sigma and Merck reseller in Poland and found it on a nice poster named "List of chemicals that can't be sold to physical people", hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid, and nitric acid made the list too, the list was huge but one that shocked me was bromine. I also know a store in Warsaw that specialises in amateur chemistry and will sell you all these things, but it was closed because of easter when I was in Poland. I am very annoyed now, because I could only get a tiny amount of KMnO4.