Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Starting home lab--need to worry??

NiK - 12-11-2013 at 08:01

So I've been doing a lot of reading on this forum and other sites and it seems to be a pretty common occurrence for the police to show up and investigate why you have glassware/chemicals for your home lab.

I purchased about $165 of equipment/materials from Home Science Tools and then another $45 of primarily materials but a few chemicals such as Lugol's solution and some petroleum ether (only 30ml).

The glassware that I purchased includes a set of Erlenmeyer flasks, a couple boiling flasks, a set of beakers and some test tubes. I also bought a ring stand, alcohol burner, etc. I had previously purchased Robert Bruce Thompson's Illustrated Guide to Home Chemistry Experiements; so everything I bought is listed in the book as needed to carry out the high school-level labs.

On the slightly sketchier side I have some ~12M HCl that I obtained from a wholesaler of plumbing supplier that I work for (well as a management trainee for the corporation who owns them) as well as some NaOH that I honestly can't even remember why I bought it, it's just 1lb of Lye drain cleaner...I think I just wanted a strong base to react, but maybe if I don't have a good reason I should get rid of it (I'm recently retaking up chemistry and reading a textbook to become more knowledgeable, I've always had an interest in it; did great in high school chem and took chem 101 in college).

I plan on storing all my chemicals properly (probably in an unused mini fridge) and keeping MSDS on-hand in a binder for all of the chemicals I have.

My question is whether or not I have anything to worry about? Among the other materials I bought are simple things like filter paper, chromatography strips, crucibles/tongs and other small harmless things like that. Do I need to worry about the drug squad knockin' on my door asking what I'm up to? I honestly don't have anything to hide so it would be an interesting experience to say the least, but I would had to have my equipment confiscated. If it helps, I live in Washington state, east of the mountains where it is a little more conservative. My thinking is that I have perfectly sound explanations for why I have everything I have (except the HCl) and am going to be doing my experiments on a small scale, I think the largest flask I bought was 500mL.

If anyone has any comments or advice on my situation I'd love to hear it. Also, I live in an apartment complex do you think there would be an issue with me doing small scale separation and solubility experiments there? The further chapters get into reactions and acid/base chemistry...would those be an issue in an apartment?


-NiK

Magpie - 12-11-2013 at 09:46

Quote: Originally posted by NiK  
So I've been doing a lot of reading on this forum and other sites and it seems to be a pretty common occurrence for the police to show up and investigate why you have glassware/chemicals for your home lab.


I don't agree. I think it is a rare event, and usually based on some provocation or freak accident.

Keep your nose clean, don't do anything illegal, and don't advertise. Chemistry per se is not illegal.

[Edited on 12-11-2013 by Magpie]

MrHomeScientist - 12-11-2013 at 10:30

This has been talked about over and over again in this subforum. Please do some looking around - I think you'll come to the same conclusion as Magpie. The only reason it seems common is because people don't post about it when they don't get raided.

There is nothing sketchy at all about muriatic acid (pool acid, concrete etchant, etc.) and sodium hydroxide (drain cleaner, soap making, etc.), especially if they are still in their original bottles. Don't be so paranoid that you can't do any experiments, but at the same time be considerate of your apartment neighbors. Avoid making copious amounts of noxious gases that could float through an open window and into a baby's crib.

I practiced home chemistry at an apartment for about a year before moving into my house, and never had any incidents. I limited myself to relatively simple and benign experiments while there.

woelen - 12-11-2013 at 13:21

If you find conc. HCl and NaOH sketchy, then you probably have taken the wrong hobby. A decent home lab NEEDS these chemicals and these are really basic chemicals. You soon will find out that you also want H2SO4, and maybe HNO3 if you want to do somewhat more interesting chemistry experiments.

Over the months you will collect more chemicals and you will get used to handling chemicals which you now consider sketchy. The really sketchy ones are the precursors for drugs, which have no other applications. E.g. ephedrine, phenylacetic acid, phenylacetone, alpha-phenylacetoacetonitrile I certainly would not want to have in the lab. Unfortunately, where you live, red phosphorus and to a somewhat lesser extent iodine are also frowned upon, although I consider that a really bad thing, because these chemicals have so many other uses than making meth.

Most important is that you do not cause trouble in or around your house with your experiments. The best way to avoid unwanted attention is to assure that you do not have all kinds of nasty smells around your house and that you do not have bad accidents with fire and smoke, or have big flashes of light. If you experiment on a small scale, then you can do amazingly many things. Even making stuff like Br2, Cl2, fuming HNO3 in small quantities and other similarly corrosive things can be done at home if you get a little bit more experienced and have collected some decent apparatus and glassware.

If you want to start a home lab, then this page on my website may be of help for you:

http://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/misc/homelab.html

NiK - 12-11-2013 at 17:42

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
If you find conc. HCl and NaOH sketchy, then you probably have taken the wrong hobby.


The only reason I say sketchy is because when people think of drain cleaner and "hydrochloric acid" and they don't know anything about chemistry or chemicals they react to it. E.g., I purchased the HCl from the supply house at which I work and my coworker wrote my order up under the PO "Breaking Bad"...I think that illustrates my point of ignorance and misconception. I myself do not find them to be sketchy. As for the wrong hobby, no way I've always had a love for chemistry and I'm finally to the age and maturity level where I can do it responsibly and without a desire to do any stupid (I used to be that kid you hear about in the paper, except I got lucky and the worst I ever got were 2nd, almost 3rd, degree burns on my hand).

Anyways, thanks for all the feedback from everyone; I do think I was probably being a bit paranoid. I see this forum being a great source of knowledge in the future! Thanks again everyone :D

bismuthate - 12-11-2013 at 18:01

No need to be scared just never, ever by from an illegitiment dealer and you should be mostly fine. Also there's no problem in being a very young chemist. You should also be hesitant to buy phosphorus or iodine, the D.E.A hates those.

About the ignorance of chemicals: I know some one who thinks that a methoxid is the oxide of meth. Prepare for misiterpretation, I can garuntee that it won't be the last time.

Fenir - 12-11-2013 at 18:49

In AP chemistry, I mentioned the fact I had recently synthesized methyl salicilate. As a result, a girl in front of me turned around and said, "that is not funny, meth is not somthing to joke about." The amazing thing is that AP chemistry supposed to be the best of the best. Chemophobia has already permeated much of society.

elementcollector1 - 12-11-2013 at 18:56

Quote: Originally posted by Fenir  
In AP chemistry, I mentioned the fact I had recently synthesized methyl salicilate. As a result, a girl in front of me turned around and said, "that is not funny, meth is not somthing to joke about." The amazing thing is that AP chemistry supposed to be the best of the best. Chemophobia has already permeated much of society.


"The best of the best"? Hardly. It might be the top tier of high school, but that's not saying much for AP.

Metacelsus - 12-11-2013 at 19:35

I completed AP chemistry before high school, and am now taking organic chemistry at a local university. However, I have observed the AP class at my school, just to see what it was like, and, sadly, students only very rarely do anything in the lab, and when they do, the teacher is paranoid about safety, even though the class only works with dilute aqueous solutions. 0.1 M HCl is SO dangerous! ;)

In other words, it's no surprise that AP chemistry doesn't dispel chemophobia. It's almost all theory.

WGTR - 12-11-2013 at 20:45

The AP classes that I was in consisted of piles and piles of homework, and the thought that you were "special". As far as I was
concerned, it meant less time available to spend in my workshop after school. Most of the kids that I was in class with were just
naturally good at taking tests, and that was in spite of the fact that they were stoned half the time. I was so glad to get out of high
school.

bismuthate, the first line in your post really got my attention when I first scanned through it. :) I had to read the whole
post carefully to gain the proper context.

One thing that I've learned in my short, rather non-illustrious life, is not to let people back you into a corner. If you show up at the
checkout register with a bottle of sulfamic acid, and the clerk asks what you are going to use that for...don't start getting
shifty-eyed, and looking like you're about to make a nuclear bomb. Because she will think that you are about to make a nuclear
bomb. What people think of you matters a lot in this kind of a hobby. If you can clearly communicate your thoughts on a level
that other people can understand, without exuding a lot of false guilt, then they may actually respect you.

I went to a pool supply store once and asked specifically for a particular product, because it contained pure NaBr. Because
people find it odd when you specify things by chemical name, I was asked what I needed it for. I explained that I was interested
in alternative energy, and was trying to synthesize my own fuel from scratch. This guy was really interested in this, so I was then
able to explain the different chemical pathways that I was thinking of exploring using this product. I think he said something like
"Have fun!" when I left. What I said was actually true, but if I had answered the question with "Well, I want to make
bromoform"...that sounds like "chloroform", and it would have left me in an awkward situation of trying to defend myself.

If you can explain your hobby in the context of some social issue that everyone understands, then that's a major step in
lessening people's fear of you.

Magpie - 12-11-2013 at 21:35

me: placed 1 lb container of Rooto lye (sodium hydroxide) on counter at check-out of hardware store.

clerk: "Clogged drain or making soap?"

me: "Drain. It really works well to break up grease clogs."

hypothetical wrong response: "I use it as a general purpose reagent in my home laboratory."

clerk: "Yes, it is strong. It dissolved my steel drain grate. But I can't figure out why it doesn't dissolve PVC pipe?"

me: no response. Takes purchase and leaves store.

bismuthate - 13-11-2013 at 04:10

me: goes to counter with NaOH, Cu(II)SO4 and H2SO4
clerk stares at me in shock

Magpie: Your clerk reminds me of when I thought that acid could dissolve anything.... I was six.

We should have a thread for this type of thing.
EDIT: corrected epic chemical formula fail. (I wrote H2SOH facepalm) Sorry I was tired.
[Edited on 13-11-2013 by bismuthate]

[Edited on 13-11-2013 by bismuthate]

woelen - 13-11-2013 at 04:17

Quote: Originally posted by bismuthate  
Cu(SO4)2 and H2SOH
With these two chemicals I also would be shocked and probably I would run for my life :o

Pyro - 13-11-2013 at 10:46

I got a hard time in the paint store about Al2O3, he thought it was pyrotechnics stuff :D

[Edited on 13-11-2013 by Pyro]

CO2AtmosphereGuy - 13-11-2013 at 13:18

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
Quote: Originally posted by bismuthate  
Cu(SO4)2 and H2SOH
With these two chemicals I also would be shocked and probably I would run for my life :o


For the chemically naive such as myself, why would somebody buying Cu(SO4)2 and H2SOH make you run for your life? Are they explosive when mixed or something?

Edit: To tell you have naive I am, I'm not even sure what those chemical symbols are. I think the first was in copper(II) sulfate, but that's only one SO4 molecule, not two. Sulfate is the closest thing I could find to the second molecule, and that's obviously not it. What should I plug into Wikipedia to find those two molecules?

Edit 2: Never mind, after reading his edit he meant copper(II) sulfate and sulfuric acid. I'm still not sure why the chemicals corrosponding to the origional two symbols (Cu(SO4)2 and H2SOH) are scary, though.

[Edited on 13-11-2013 by CO2AtmosphereGuy]

[Edited on 13-11-2013 by CO2AtmosphereGuy]

Random - 13-11-2013 at 13:20

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
Quote: Originally posted by bismuthate  
Cu(SO4)2 and H2SOH
With these two chemicals I also would be shocked and probably I would run for my life :o


Acidic sulphur hydroxide can't be a good thing. :P

MichiganMadScientist - 13-11-2013 at 13:21

My number one advice for new amateur chemists is: "Don't talk openly about it." Don't be trying to impress your friends by talking about what you do. Don't try and make illegal crap just for the hell of it.

These days, you can be perfectly legal about what you are doing, and still end up getting wrapped up into a witch-hunt investigation. Keeping a low profile is paramount.

[Edited on 13-11-2013 by MichiganMadScientist]

zenosx - 19-11-2013 at 17:17

I agree with MMS, I am very careful about who goes into my lab, and those that are made aware are explicitly told to not talk to others, and they know why as you'll read.

On the other hand, my in laws (where I live in an apt upstairs, the lab is about 1/4 of the full basement) have brought everyone from ADT security to plumbers, phone repairmen, AC repairmen etc. into the lab, hard not to do since it's most of one side of the basement.

Note also that I live in the #1 state in the US for meth production (at least lately), that is TN. No one thought anything about the lab. My FiL always told whoever that I was a chem major etc, and no one ever asked questions other than basic stuff. I suppose that my extensive chemicals and glassware selection doesn't look like any meth lab they see in the papers so they move on without a thought.

Just keep it down-low, never make anything illegal and you should be fine. I have been building my lab for almost 4 years now and never had any issues. I have ordered lots from elemental scientific, TONS from ebay, a couple things from nuclear scientific years ago etc...

I also agree with the smells thing,, the #1 thing that busts meth labs in my state are people complaining of a "chemical odor" from next door.

APO - 28-11-2013 at 16:48


I totally agree with controling "chemical odor", back when I still had my lab, I used bubblers all the time, even inline or in series sometimes. Also lots of fans and good ventilation to prevent build up of odor helps a lot too. Just make sure no one outside can see what you're doing.

I also agree with what MichigainMadScienist said, from personal experience, talking openly about this specific hobby is asking for trouble. I used to be very open and detailed about this stuff with people, but I've found it's in your best interest to be careful who you talk to at all about this stuff. But if you do, be very discreet, and most importantly be very clear that you DO NOT produce any illicit substances. Also like Zenosx said, be HIGHLY cautious of who you allow in your lab.

However, here are some good things to keep in mind to pipe down any "uninvited" guests, if ya know what I mean...

The main arguement that I got from the authorities that confiscated my lab was that even though the heavy door on my room was always locked and you needed key to get in, they specifically mentioned that all reagents and possibly dangerous equipment should be locked away when not in use. Additionally, keep your lab prestine, or else anyone who sees it that is unfamiliar with amatuer chemistry will immediately become much more suspicious than usual. Finally try not to use "getto" setups, as that further contributes to propagation of suspicion.

nanobot-dnp - 2-12-2013 at 12:47

No you should be more concerned with gang members and drug fiends.

Mr_Magnesium - 2-12-2013 at 14:33

The Police know about my lab and they haven't harassed me since, ordered more glassware and they don't really mind (i hope)

If you have a nice tidy lab that is well kept and doesn't have certain precursors in it, you SHOULD be fine.

Atom ! - 2-3-2014 at 11:07

Hello All .....

Does anyone have any experiance ordering chemicals from asia ? The supplier is aranged but how do i go about doing everything correctly of corse .

Plese tell me how can i check to make sure certain items are not listed as hazardous or restricted in my country or not sutable for home delivery .

I have serched for the list of restricted items here in the UK but this only gives catergorys of such knives porn fake tabbaco and others .

It does not specificaly list any items such as chemicals or at least i have not found that list ...

Such chemicals i need 1.0/1.5kg of each nitrobenzene aluminium oxide propiophenone dichloromethane chlorobenzene allyl bromide hexanoic acid ...

Can anyone see them being a problem or even would alarm bells ring ?





woelen - 2-3-2014 at 11:26

If you are in the UK, then why order from Asia? The UK has many superb suppliers with many chemicals for the amateur chemist. Your set of chemicals you mention is not the list of chemicals which I would expect for a starting amateur chemist and I can imagine that some of the chemicals on your wishlist may raise eyebrows. Especially propiophenone is suspicious, it is a precursor to certain drugs (among others ephedrine, phenmetrazine).

What kind of chemistry do you want to do? Not all kinds of chemistry are appreciated.

[Edited on 2-3-14 by woelen]

Atom ! - 2-3-2014 at 11:38

Hi

[Edited on 2-3-2014 by Atom !]

Chemosynthesis - 2-3-2014 at 17:04

I've ordered all sorts of equipment from China, but no chemicals that I am aware of. I know this doesn't help most in the forum that I can tell, but I would recommend hanging a relevant degree of one type or another near your lab. That should assist in assuaging any irrational fears from passersby on your property.

Sigerson - 5-3-2014 at 12:43

I am among those living under the rule of dark age Texas. I know Texas gets a bad wrap so first I think its only fair to say that Austin is a blue island in a see of red. That said, the police are the police are the police. I haven't done anything, purchased anything or given any reason for any trouble and on the advice of everyone here, I will keep it that way. My one and only goal in studying chemistry is knowledge for knowledge sake. I just purchased a 20 gallon, plastic bin, with clamps, holes for pad locks and a foam seal all the way around the lid. Fits under my desk and is equipped to handle just about any type of spill so hopefully, should a nosey neighbor want to raise hell for me, this will only lend me credence.

I have purchased from a few suppliers both in and out of texas. One was more than willing to sell me whatever I needed but I kept it short, simple and legal. I mentioned in my previous post that I had the good fortunate of being able to speak to my friends husband who works for the narcotics division here in TX. he told her to tell me after looking into it, that the only time we would face any difficulties is if they first have good reason to come and inspect and in doing so, only if they find drug residue on restricted glassware.

Gives me some solace. What gives me even more solace and solidarity is all of you, so before I forget, thank you each and everyone one of you for paving the way and for those of you that took the time to reach out with some encouraging words and advice such as chemosynthesis. Has been greatly appreciated.

Oh and Nik, I did reach out to ya via U2U. SO much of what we're both experiencing is running parallel and I figured we could benefit from each others knowledge. Feel free to hit me up whenever you feel like

[Edited on 5-3-2014 by Sigerson]

Texium - 9-3-2014 at 16:12

I am also an Austinite. I've ordered a large amount of glassware and other equipment, and also bought several chemicals at hardware stores, such as NaOH, Cu(II)SO4, NaCO3, KNO3, and HCl, but I have not been bothered by any law enforcement.
Also, I have to do all of my work outside in my back yard, so when I'm doing anything that produces noxious gases such as H2S, I try to find a time at which my neighbors aren't home.

splooge - 10-3-2014 at 12:23

The only trouble I would expect is having to explain why you have a lab in the first place. What I personally did to protect my butthole and equipment from pillaging is I got a FEL.

This is good because not only do I have a reason and legal storage for energetic materials, but I have constant transparency of said chemicals with the fire department, as they are the "jurisdiction having authority". It gives you a legitimate use for red phosphorus (armstrong's mix is a HE is it not?)

I've also talked to the state fire marshal about any possible restrictions concerning manufacturing/storage and zoning laws. So unless I'm clearly breaking the law I have absolutely nothing to worry about, all in all it set me back 500$ but was worth every penny because I don't have to justify why I have a lab.

As far as being as discrete as humanly possible I"m not sure I entirely agree with that. I agree you shouldn't announce what you're doing to the world that you have evil scary chemicals in your basement is probably a good thing. But keeping in touch with your fire department isn't a bad thing either. Do you really want them to draw their own conclusions if you have a lab accident and they need to respond? They actually WILL start investigating when they come across your lab.

In summary, as long as you can explain why you have a lab you shouldn't worry about cops kicking in your door and raiding the place.

Edit: It's also easier to buy certain chems.


[Edited on 10-3-2014 by splooge]

Texium - 10-3-2014 at 21:20

To add to that, one good idea is to make sure that your neighbors (unless they've got something serious against chemistry for some reason) are halfway aware of what you're doing instead of being all secretive about it. It makes it much less likely to get reported by them if they understand that you aren't doing anything illegal.