Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Failing to detonate ?

Failing to detonate ?

underground - 13-10-2013 at 04:01

A while ago i was trying to detonate 100gr of ANFO were it was a small tightly ball, placed into a small plastic bag for keeping it dry, But unfortunately i fail, and i ask some help as i am a new to this hobby.

The cap was the following:
I took a firecracker and i cut it at the middle, i remove the flash-powder from inside and i use the lower section for filling the primary-booster and the upper section for a time-fuse.

For booster, i put inside some nitrocellulose (were i took it from a shop for filling hunting bullets) and i place it at the bottom of the firecracker with some acetone to make it denser

Then i fill the rest space of the lower section with moist (with acetone) TATP and i let it dry for an hour.

After that i put together the two parts of the firecracker and i place next to the bottom of it one small dense ball of nitrocellulose with tape for booster also.

On top of it i place the small ball of ANFO hopping that the reaction to the follow...

fire of the firecracker -->detonation of TATP --> detonation of NC at the bottom of the firecracker, -->detonation the small ball of NC --> detonation of 100gr of ANFO

I lit the firecracker and i run away from there. Suddenly a small sharp boom it comes and i saw the small ball of ANFO "fly" about 1/2 meter from the earth.
I go there ti see what happens, and i saw a small hole to the small plastic ball of ANFO, the small ball of NC about 1 meter away, and the bottom of the firecracker with the NC inside like some big granules.

So what was happened there ? Is it possible that the TATP never detonates and only deflagrates ?

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 13-10-2013 at 05:21

Quote: Originally posted by underground

Is it possible that the TATP never detonates and only deflagrates ?

Nah, I dont think so. TATP is too sensitive for deflagration, but in an moisturized or dissolved form, im not really sure if it is possible for deflagration.

probably TATP failed to initiate ? TATP is not that powerful, and that you moisturized it, making it even less powerful.

underground - 13-10-2013 at 05:25

I let it dry... it was looking try enough

VladimirLem - 13-10-2013 at 06:39

Quote: Originally posted by underground

fire of the firecracker -->detonation of TATP --> detonation of NC at the bottom of the firecracker, -->detonation the small ball of NC --> detonation of 100gr of ANFO

I wouldnt go for NC (especially not NC alone) - because of its low density its hard to detonate !

Without it, you had much better chances, BUT....ANFO is some of the savest explosives out there (save enough that i used to take 2kg of it as a improved pillow

)...it needs very much initialpower (booster) AND some container like a cardboard roll (please no metal), so that it hasnt the chance to just blow away...

And make sure your initialexplosive is -completely- dry, make sure your annmoium nitrate is very fine powdered (coffee mill) and dry

if you have (fine) alluminium powder, add 1-3% to it and use less motor oil (3-4%) - AL is a really good AN sensitizer. With it, you could improvise a booster (80 AN, 15 AL, 5 Flour)

Ral123 - 13-10-2013 at 07:34

Quote: Originally posted by underground

A while ago i was trying to detonate 100gr of ANFO were it was a small tightly ball, placed into a small plastic bag for keeping it dry, But unfortunately i fail, and i ask some help as i am a new to this hobby.

The cap was the following:
I took a firecracker and i cut it at the middle, i remove the flash-powder from inside and i use the lower section for filling the primary-booster and the upper section for a time-fuse.

For booster, i put inside some nitrocellulose (were i took it from a shop for filling hunting bullets) and i place it at the bottom of the firecracker with some acetone to make it denser

Then i fill the rest space of the lower section with moist (with acetone) TATP and i let it dry for an hour.

After that i put together the two parts of the firecracker and i place next to the bottom of it one small dense ball of nitrocellulose with tape for booster also.

On top of it i place the small ball of ANFO hopping that the reaction to the follow...

fire of the firecracker -->detonation of TATP --> detonation of NC at the bottom of the firecracker, -->detonation the small ball of NC --> detonation of 100gr of ANFO

I lit the firecracker and i run away from there. Suddenly a small sharp boom it comes and i saw the small ball of ANFO "fly" about 1/2 meter from the earth.
I go there ti see what happens, and i saw a small hole to the small plastic ball of ANFO, the small ball of NC about 1 meter away, and the bottom of the firecracker with the NC inside like some big granules.

So what was happened there ? Is it possible that the TATP never detonates and only deflagrates ?

You are like one of those kids who take some cartboard and toy motor and try to make a plane. Then wonder why it wouldn't fly at to well

underground - 13-10-2013 at 07:49

Ok i made some tests to see actually how stable my TATP is and it looks really stable!!!

I saw in you-tube a video that it detonates from the heat of a match when it is no more lit but mine only deflagrats, also i tried then to light it with a nichrome wire, (but unfortunately the battery was no full of voltage) and when i touch it with the hot nichrome wire, it first become liquid and then starts to evaporate!! no burn to detonation...
Also the damage were made tot he small ball of ANFO was very little, i guess if it would be detonated, the hole bag should be crushed!
I only bring it to detonation (a small amount only) with a good hit of hammer on top of my vice, and it was really strong!!!

I prepare it with 10ml of acetone, 10ml of 35% h202 and 10 drops of 32% HCL into a Plastic film canister

Quote: Originally posted by Ral123

You are like one of those kids who take some cartboard and toy motor and try to make a plane. Then wonder why it wouldn't fly at to well

[Edited on 13-10-2013 by underground]

Gargamel - 13-10-2013 at 10:28

I don't mean to be rude or something, but I don't think it's a good idea to help this guy endangering himself.

There's a lot more cool stuff to mess with when you start with this hobby, does it have to be HE charges now?

underground - 13-10-2013 at 13:58

Quote: Originally posted by Gargamel

I don't mean to be rude or something, but I don't think it's a good idea to help this guy endangering himself.

There's a lot more cool stuff to mess with when you start with this hobby, does it have to be HE charges now?

Do not worry, that is ok, i have 6 years experience in rocketry and a little bit in pyrotechnics and the last 3 in High Power Rocketry, so chemicals are a little bit familiar to me...

[Edited on 14-10-2013 by underground]

underground - 13-10-2013 at 22:49

As i saw to this pdf file,

http://www.google.gr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&am...

the material of the blasting cap it really plays an important parameter, so i was thinking to try a copper or aluminum blasting cap... i guess the firecracker blasting cap made out of paper was not very efficient... what do you think guys ?

snooby - 13-10-2013 at 22:54

@underground:

Stop playing around with aceton-peroixde and NC. First of all I dont think you will ever manage to set off 100 gram of ANFO, secondly: never with AP and NC...

If you are familiar with chemicals, try to make some silveracetylide and some PETN or ETN. Then try to detonate 100g ANNM with it instead of ANFO..

After some time playing with AP you will probably/hopefully see that it's to dangerous to play with.. So be wise and stop playing with it directly and spent your time in making a somewhat safer primary.

underground - 13-10-2013 at 23:21

What about HMTD... ? Unfortunately i do not have any source of NM
I have to my mind to use MEKP for primary in the future, but unfortunately i do not have yet MEK, I believe MEKP is one of the best primary for many reasons

I have also now order some erythritol, but unfortunately i do not have any available acids, but i will try to use battery acid and concentrate it with boiling, and use it with some AN or Kno3 for making ETN

[Edited on 14-10-2013 by underground]

snooby - 13-10-2013 at 23:39

MEKP is a liquid and not easy to place in a detonator. However I think MEKP is less sensitive then AP and HMTD. Just totaly STOP thinking about HMTD and AP, those are really, really dangerous and known as fingerkillers. I managed to set off HMTD with only a little teaspoon.. It's nothing, just a devil primary explosive wich I am now very scared of.

Don't hurry with making a big bang.. maybe you can search for some concentrated sulfcuric acid. You can search on the internet on draincleaner, or just go to some hardware stores and find this acid. Then get familiar with ETN (wich is also quite sensitive!).

I think the only way you can make a big bang at this moment, is with peroxides right? Be smart, take your bike and go get some chemicals.. (think this is one of the most fun stuff to do within this hobby).

Ral123 - 14-10-2013 at 00:27

Quote: Originally posted by snooby

@underground:

First of all I dont think you will ever manage to set off 100 gram of ANFO, secondly: never with AP and NC...

Don't be too quick to judge people, when you aren't too familiar with what are you talking about. It's done here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbJYkJjmXkw

snooby - 14-10-2013 at 00:40

I am familiar with ANFO, but not with little quantities like 100 grams.
@underground: just ment to say there are explosives far more easy to detonate then ANFO. Especially charges of 100 grams are really hard to detonate if you dont have a really powerfull booster.

Ral123 - 14-10-2013 at 02:10

The booster is the same, no matter how much is the anfo. Just little charges may need confinement.

Fantasma4500 - 14-10-2013 at 02:17

i think you should go for sugar dynamon instead..
95 5 AN Sugar (powdered both) is much easier to initiate

infact, keeping metal out of this whole thing is a good idea, ALTHOUGH it does increase performance slightly
if you can get acids for nitrating you can skip a part of the explosive train, but i think if you just use ANSU you dont need anything stronger than AP, of what i recall 0.5g tetra AP was used for... 1.5kg ANSU???

i dont see why people keep using ANFO when you can use ANSU instead? perhaps its because nobody knows about it?

underground - 14-10-2013 at 02:23

Quote: Originally posted by snooby

I am familiar with ANFO, but not with little quantities like 100 grams.
@underground: just ment to say there are explosives far more easy to detonate then ANFO. Especially charges of 100 grams are really hard to detonate if you dont have a really powerfull booster.

I will try to manufacture some ETN as it is easy to detonate compare with ANFO, i have also some hexamine What about tannerite, it is easier to detonate than ANFO i believe...

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat

i think you should go for sugar dynamon instead..
95 5 AN Sugar (powdered both) is much easier to initiate

infact, keeping metal out of this whole thing is a good idea, ALTHOUGH it does increase performance slightly
if you can get acids for nitrating you can skip a part of the explosive train, but i think if you just use ANSU you dont need anything stronger than AP, of what i recall 0.5g tetra AP was used for... 1.5kg ANSU???

i dont see why people keep using ANFO when you can use ANSU instead? perhaps its because nobody knows about it?

ANSU it sounds interesting, i will try it but i just want to detonate small quantities at first, for safety reasons.
From the pdf were i posted before, it looks like a metallic blasting cap greatly increase the performance and VoD of the primary explosive. In fact i would like to try to detonate some NC with TATP and a metallic blasting cup.
But the think that impressed me is that the NC does not detonate so easy!!

[Edited on 14-10-2013 by underground]

snooby - 14-10-2013 at 06:07

Like mentioned earlier, try to detonate annm or ANAl first. A straw filled with 0.5gram of ETN and 100 mg of acetonperoxide should be plenty

underground - 14-10-2013 at 06:58

Quote: Originally posted by snooby

Like mentioned earlier, try to detonate annm or ANAl first. A straw filled with 0.5gram of ETN and 100 mg of acetonperoxide should be plenty

Ok i will try that one then i have the erythritol into my hands.
I will use erythritol tetranitrate as a booster and some amounts of AN/AL as a main charge and we will see what is going to happen.
snooby, can you tell me the percentages of AN/AL ?

P.S. I saw that threa there and i was very interesting...

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=24032

Is that mixture more sensitive than AN/AL ? if yes i will try that one.

[Edited on 14-10-2013 by underground]

snooby - 14-10-2013 at 09:06

http://williestop.tripod.com/Highexplosivespictorials/anmixe...

95 AN/ 5 AL

Or you can use for example: Ammoniumnitrate / nitromethane ratio 5:1.

These types of explosives are excellent boosters for ANFO.

VladimirLem - 14-10-2013 at 09:32

Quote: Originally posted by underground

the material of the blasting cap it really plays an important parameter, so i was thinking to try a copper or aluminum blasting cap... i guess the firecracker blasting cap made out of paper was not very efficient... what do you think guys ?

rule #1: do NOT use metals at your device if you dont have to - and when, dont watch the detonation (cover) and make sure that there are no peoples/animals in a distance from MINIMUM 100 yards! my take on this, explosives are massivle overrated at danger (expect vom initialexplosives) the main danger are fragments (of metals/glas/plastic)

you dont have to use metals (especially not if you are using peroxides! they react with metals) at your DetonatorCap...peroxides detonate even within drinking straws and getting enough power to initialte AN-carbon mixtures...i bet, it was the NC, that made your Test unsucessfully

Quote:

I don't mean to be rude or something, but I don't think it's a good idea to help this guy endangering himself.

well...i started the same way, so...i have to help...
i remember my first detonation - it was like a childhood dream came true

i started at zero (160g GRG1

), then after a time, got a destillery, made strong stuff (PETN, RDX and so on), made armourpiercing devices and now i am more at theoretcial stuff...i love explosives...so i do my best, that he can (!as save as possible!) go the same way if he want to

underground - 14-10-2013 at 11:29

Quote: Originally posted by VladimirLem

well...i started the same way, so...i have to help...
i remember my first detonation - it was like a childhood dream came true

...so i do my best, that he can (!as save as possible!) go the same way if he want to

i started at zero (160g GRG1

You are just awesome!!!

Quote: Originally posted by VladimirLem

Today i tried to do a blasting cap from a straw with TATP, the straw was a normal soda straw at about 3.5 cm long. I fill lt with moist TATP out of acetone, and i pressed it with a head match, i let it try at about 2 to 3 hours (drying 2nd time) and then i ignite it with a homemade kno3/sulfur/paper fuse, it just only deflagrates, no detonation at all.
I guess it was a little bit moist because, before i moist it with acetone, i dry it because i store my TATP into canister film cap with distilled water (first trying time), so i guess the water does not evaporate completely, now i have some outside to try and i will live it all day to completely dry, then i will repeat the same processes with the straw cap and we will see what happens, if it will detonate then, the problem should be the moisture, so i must let it more to dry.
Also for a booster, i was thinking a mixture of TATP or HMTD with NC (50/50 or 60/40), i guess 2 grams of it as a booster would be ok...

[Edited on 14-10-2013 by underground]

underground - 14-10-2013 at 22:02

Ok i have just tried the up one straw detonator, and it detonates, but not at all the way throw. The soda straw was about 5cm long, and it detonates first and then a small quantity deflagrates, at about 2.5 cm at the end of the straw deflagrates, so what it may happened ?? i guess that maybe at the end of the straw there were i little bit moist that is way that happens (note that the end of the straw was sealed with some tape), what do you think guys ? Is there a possibility that the detonation stops because the straw was a little bit long ?
Almost the same was happens and when i tried to detonate a100gr of ANFO but the detonation there it stops also at the end, at the point of NC.

[Edited on 15-10-2013 by underground]

snooby - 15-10-2013 at 00:36

The AP clearly is NOT dry.

underground - 15-10-2013 at 01:03

Also i would like to ask something else, does it plays any role the main expletive's shape ?
For example if it would be like a ball or like a stick ?

underground - 15-10-2013 at 05:27

It looks like the caps from a straw does not work very well for me, and caps from paper work better.
I guess that this is because the paper absorbs the moisture from the primary explosive, but the straw can not do that...

[Edited on 15-10-2013 by underground]

snooby - 15-10-2013 at 06:50

The fact that the paper tube works well and the straw does not can indeed confirm that the AP was moist. AP does not dry very well when it is in a straw! Just let the AP dry, in quantities like 1 gram!!!. Like mentioned earlier. 100 mg of AP is plenty to set of ETN

. Just make a few 'minidets' with AP.

Do this as following: fill a straw with some (dry..) primary (in this case AP) and place a fuse. Then take the other part of your detonator (in this case like 500 mg of ETN) and put it into the real detonator (paper tube). Finally, put your minidetonator upon to the det and inset the det into the main charge.

doktor x - 15-10-2013 at 07:45

i have sucsesful try to detonate anfo with boster from amonium nitrate ,acetone peroxide ,PUPROM OXIDE,and firecracer flashpouder

underground - 15-10-2013 at 07:55

I have also some HMTD, i will try some straw detonators with it to see how it is going to work.
I have done already the following, i have already prepare a 400gr of AN/AL and i have add some copper oxide as a catalyst (hopefully will do the detonation easier, it also turns the mixture into a light blue color) but it really has do a hight density because i cast it at it his liquid form into a plastic container into some cold water, and i have inside a hole for the detonator, i hope that it will work, i am planning to detonate it with some TATP as a primary and some TATP/NC mixture as a booster (i thing a 60/40 comp of TATP/NC)

woelen - 4-11-2013 at 11:27

Quote: Originally posted by doktor x

i have sucsesful try to detonate anfo with boster from amonium nitrate ,acetone peroxide ,PUPROM OXIDE,and firecracer flashpouder

We are getting closer to Dec. 31 again. Prime time for k3wls and ret4rDz.

PUPRUM OXIDE????
flash pouder??? from fire crackers???

Not capable of writing a normal sentence???

This is a warning. Change your posting habits, otherwise I need to suspend your account for some time.

My Soapbox is getting Tired of Holding Me Up

Praxichys - 4-11-2013 at 12:17

When I read this, all I can think of is a cherry-red plastic straw held delicately between a pair of big, juicy, fleshy fingers. There is a beautiful glint of light shining from the snow-white crystals dampened with acetone, its fruity odor hanging in the air with the unmistakably spicy component of the acetone peroxide, allegoric to the wonderful amount of potential energy locked loosely into millions of awe-inspiring structures! And then, the soft crunchy noise of pressing the crystals with the head of a match by a bespectacled young man with a wonderful albeit misguided passion for science, whistling a merry tune in anticipation of the completion of his remarkable device! Oh, the wonder and glory of science!

And the shock one must recieve upon being blinded by bone fragments from one's own thumb.

♫ All I want for Christmas is the ability to use my hand again ♫

Fantasma4500 - 8-11-2013 at 08:22

i feel its worth mentioning that 82 18 AN Al would theoretically be more powerful as its near perfect OB, also it should be more sensitive to initiation

but damn, above post is just worth saving.. happy christmas all you play-hard k3wl's
good job Praxichys