Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Ammonium TRI-nitrate --- The old, new oxidizer

Ammonium TRI-nitrate --- The old, new oxidizer

VladimirLem - 12-10-2013 at 05:16

Hi there again*

Ammonium trinitrate - NH4NO3*2HNO3

This compound seems to be very interesting as an oxidizer - the only negative point seems to be, that it's caustic, but has an interesting meltingpoint (27-29C) and seems to be +46.6% at Oxygen*

US1997927
US3306789
Preview of an PDF (no freeware)

I think mixing around 10-20% of it into RDX (or other explosives with negative oxygen balance) could be very awsome :cool:

Especially because it seems that you can make cast-like explosive-blocks when mixing the liquid ATN with warmed up "normal" explosives and then cool them down (US3306789)

Anyone has more informations about this compound? I used 3 searchengines but there are rarely informations (no density, VoD, leadblock-test, frictiontest)

What do you guys think of this oxidizer?

*i used the HE calculator 1.0
*damn im so pissed of this board, i wrote nearly a dissertation about this compound and when i came to the sources-links i made a wrong mouse-klick and ended up with a blank window....god damn :mad:

Boffis - 12-10-2013 at 05:39

@Vlad

I think that this compound would make for highly unstable mixtures with most organic compound including RDX. It is likely to be at least partly disassociated at room temperature and the free acid would tend to both hydrolysis many compounds and oxide them too. However, it may be a useful substitute for absolute nitric acid where near anhydrous conditions are required for nitration, particularly as it may be more stable when stored alone. I suspect that it will be somewhat hydroscopic though.

Interesting stuff never the less and I have not come across it before.

Fantasma4500 - 12-10-2013 at 06:10

i'd say the acid might be problematic as it might make other compounds very unstable.. quite interesting stuff tho

about its properties.. i dont get how it can be caustic? typo? (:

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 12-10-2013 at 07:16

Wow !! only if the melting point was just a bit higher !!!

Can i say it is a nitric acid hydrate of the salt AN ? Well, is it possible to make monohydrate ? or the Di-nitrate of ammonium ?

Ral123 - 12-10-2013 at 07:36

Quote: Originally posted by VladimirLem

Hi there again*
*damn im so pissed of this board, i wrote nearly a dissertation about this compound and when i came to the sources-links i made a wrong mouse-klick and ended up with a blank window....god damn :mad:

Sorry pal. I always ctl+c my stuff from time to time.
I guess that thing can be used where HNO3 is. For example if it can dissolve some stable negative OB material may be TNB?
NO2-physically unstable/freezes and evaporates very easy
HNO3-chemically unstable/corrodes things and decomposes
ATN-kinda best of both? May be comparable to nitroform of TNM?

VladimirLem - 12-10-2013 at 08:20

Quote: Originally posted by DubaiAmateurRocketry

Can i say it is a nitric acid hydrate of the salt AN ? Well, is it possible to make monohydrate ? or the Di-nitrate of ammonium ?

i havent much chemical skills but it seems to compare this with coppersulphate pentahydrate (CuSO4*5H2O to NH4NO3*2HNO3)...it SEEMS not to be a "trinitrate" the way we know "trinitrates" normally.

I have been searching for the Di-Nitrate too, espechially because of the caustic propertie, but i couldnt find serious sources...most sources wrote abour "-Trinitrate" and shown the structure with nitrogroups - so they probable thought ADN (ammonium dinitramide)

Quote:

about its properties.. i dont get how it can be caustic? typo? (:

well....i think i read about it , but dont know where.
But isnt even NH4NO3 slighty caustic - bechause its a salt of the damn nitric acid....so how on earth (c/w)ouldnt the Trinitrate not be caustic/agressive to other materials...dont know...maybe i'm wrong at this point

i would really wish it where not, because the other properties of ATN are awsome

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 12-10-2013 at 08:47

Quote: Originally posted by VladimirLem

the other properties of ATN are awsome

Well true for an smoke-less oxdizier, but i find Nitro-carbons better, for some reason. It have around +50% oxygen.

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=26665

VladimirLem - 12-10-2013 at 10:05

Quote: Originally posted by DubaiAmateurRocketry

Quote: Originally posted by VladimirLem

the other properties of ATN are awsome

Well true for an smoke-less oxdizier, but i find Nitro-carbons better, for some reason. It have around +50% oxygen.

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=26665

well...no doubt, this stuff (nitrocarbons) is strong as hell, BUT im searching for cheap/easy-to-get-and-make stuff...
really strong explosives are most times too expensive or theres a need for too exotic chemicals...
im pretty sure, even if i had the skill/knowledge, i would need some high end laboratory to make this stuff...

franklyn - 12-10-2013 at 10:46

Two words , strongly hygroscopic and strongly acidic

Not much good outside of Antartica.

.

woelen - 12-10-2013 at 11:32

Sounds like an unstable compound to me, which for most practical purposes can be considered like a 1 : 2 molar ratio mix of ammonium nitrate and nitric acid. It apparently can be made by dissolving 1 mole of dry ammonium nitrate in just over 2 moles of white fuming nitric acid at a temperature of well over 30 C and then cooling down the solution. It solidifies, the mix has stoichiometry NH4NO3.2HNO3 and is somewhat humid due to adhering free HNO3.

I expect this to be a nasty fuming and very corrosive wet solid, nothing you want to play with in pyrotechnic applications. A lab-curiousity, nothing more.

underground - 19-12-2013 at 11:28

What about the dinitrate salt ? Any info ?

DraconicAcid - 19-12-2013 at 11:40

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat

about its properties.. i dont get how it can be caustic? typo?

"Caustic" means that it will burn or corrode organic tissue- it does not necessarily mean that it's strongly basic. Nitric acid *is* pretty corrosive, you know.