Hi all, this looks like a very interesting forum but from what I see so far, why the term "amateur?" Have you seen the ignorance that goes
on in what some may call "professional" chemistry? I'd put my money here with some of these minds before I would put it with the
"glamour boy pros" that don't even know where chemicals come from.
What are we going to do in America to preserve our rights in alchemy? Alchemy is what made America what it is you know, garage chemists etc.
Though I can't stand those who have wasted their talent making illegal substances, aside from all the past harrassment and villification of
"real alchemists" by government agencies, the DEA now actually has informal and adjustable laws against alchemy itself. I have some ideas of
what we can do but what are your thoughts.
Amateur
Al Koholic - 29-9-2004 at 17:42
Well why the term amateur? I believe that can be captured by a simple phrase that has been, and will be in the future, said by many a member here:
Because the journey is worth more than the destination.
Thats why we're amateurs. "Professionals" usually dedicate their services to a conglomerate of people interested in company or
corporate profit. How often do you see professional chemists leading the pack in improvisational methods to accomplish something that they have the
utmost power to do with better equipment?
Surely some do. However, this forum, with its wide variety of viewer backgrounds, has an interesting environment. Sure, there are professionals here
who are interested in "makeshifting" methods to do things. Sure there are people here who really just want to bootleg things that are
supposed to be expensive or inaccesible. I am one of them. I love this site more than any other and I'm sure many people here can agree with me
simply because of the amateur nature of the discussions....
Let the DEA or the "name your controlling govt force" catalogue this discussion. Part of being amateur is being able to look at you
possibilities from a different angle. An angle of desparation sometimes. If you are backed into a wall and need to accomplish something, you do so
without the govts knowledge these days. Usually I like the feel of discovering a way of making something completely benign simply b/c it can be done.true_alchemy - 29-9-2004 at 18:31
yes, when I heard that they are actually regulating ammonia (among many other common materials) the thought crossed my mind to say "well what if
they just piss in it-are you going to regulate pissing"
The real terrorists in america are those who have harrassed american science and industry into moving to China. Science and industry is the
material strength of a country.
America is quickly becoming a third world country thanks to these self serving tyrants.Magpie - 29-9-2004 at 18:43
true_alchemy:
I'm going to assume that what you mean by "alchemy" is "home chemistry." You have brought up a very important subject that
has been addressed, more or less, on several threads since I joined this forum about 2 years ago.
Ironically there are more resources (chemicals and equipment) out there for businesses, institutions, and professional educators than ever before.
But the second you want to go off and do something on your own in your own home - OH NO! and HEAVEN FORBID! You can't buy chemicals and
glassware through regular suppliers. You've got some whispering (or joking) going on behind your back. And you're watching your backside
and becoming paranoid.
I found myself in such a situation. I stopped talking about my hobby outside this forum. But if asked about it I now will answer questions directly
and honestly just as if my hobby was say photography or soapmaking. I am agressively acquiring chemicals and supplies just because I'm so
uncertain about their future availability.
I have learned something along the way: 1) although the major suppliers have been cowed by the DEA, etc, there is a very active secondary market, as
well as many "readily available chemicals" that can be bought OTC. (2) My brother lectured me that I had become paranoid and that there
was no basis for it. I took him to heart and now feel much better. Most people just wish you the best, or at worst are just uninterested - unless it
affects them directly. (3) As Hermes Tris. says " 90% of chemistry is legal."
My advice then is don't avertise, stay legal, stay fully engaged with your family, society, and your other pursuits. And then forge ahead with
the wonderful and fun hobby of chemistry!
[Edited on 30-9-2004 by Magpie]neutrino - 29-9-2004 at 19:02
Quote:
Originally posted by Magpie
You can't buy chemicals and glassware through regular suppliers.
Surely, you just mean chemicals. I have bought glassware through more than one supplier and never had any problems.
As for saving chemistry in the US, I doubt that this endeavor will work very well. Companies outsource because its cheaper and (I suspect) because
we're just getting dumber and fewer. Acceptable amateur science (chemistry sets and school chem) has gone from making nice stuff like explosive
chemicals, things that fume like hell, eat through stuff, and in general do something interesting to watching universal indicator as it comes into
contact with diluted 'chemicals' like <1M HCl and so forth. The government is cracking down on free thought and practice of chemistry,
labeling us all terrorists or drug dealers and making chemistry a thing of the past, an archaic idea from the '50s, a dangerous practice that
will destroy this country and has no place in civilized society. Few can truly become interested in chemistry as they once used to, and the American
education system is reducing those rare few who do to uneducated slobs.
I think that this thread should be moved to Whimsy, as it has little to do with actual chemistry.true_alchemy - 29-9-2004 at 19:21
I don't know quite how to put this but many long time legitimate and well known chemical organizations across America are being forced out of
business because they do not fit what our leaders think a chemical business should be or they are unable to tolerate their creativity away from what
their feeble minds can understand.
I am not only talking about garage labs but few may be aware but "garage labs" have actually manufactured a good portion of the expensive
research chemicals seen in chemical catalogs for a long time. Have you not noticed the extreme inflation of laboratory and industrial chemicals? Are
you aware that industry and labs just cannot purchase certain common chemicals anymore? No body makes them, they've been run out. For example,
the whole world is looking for crude indene right now because the EPA ran out one coal tar company. Even pure indene is largely unavailable now
because of this. This is just one in thousands of examples. It's bad I tell ya.Magpie - 29-9-2004 at 19:25
neutrino:
Yes, there are "minor suppliers" who have sold me glassware. When I asked Fisher Scientific, however, they would not even sell me glass
beakers! Then they had the gall to say that they would sell me plastic beakers! I have not tried VWR, Cole-Parmer, or other major suppliers. I say
f*ck 'em, I'll buy from the minors and eBay.
I think this subject has everything to do with the practice of chemistry. As a chemical engineer I spent decades being told I couldn't
do "hands on" work (because of union rules). At this point in my life its chemical practice that I want most and that means a home lab for
me. Anything that interferes with that goal is very important in my mind.true_alchemy - 29-9-2004 at 19:28
yeh neutrino, I think you are right on and I also agree that this probably isn't the right category but all people who work in real chemistry
should be aware of whats going on in this.
Engineer
MadHatter - 30-9-2004 at 16:29
My brother-in-law got a masters degree in chemical engineering to advance
in his job for more money. I've tried talking to him but he has no interest in
chemistry otherwise. He must be happy working on paint formulations.
Doesn't seem to give a shit about "other" areas of chemical research.DDTea - 30-9-2004 at 18:00
It's not so much that the Chemistry itself is illegal; quite the contrary, in fact. From what I understand from an encounter with an EPA agent,
it's not that they don't want us to have our fun, they just want us to be safe.
They don't want us generating noxious fumes inside our garages or bathrooms, so that we put our neighbors at risk. They don't want us to
make explosives in our homes either. And it makes sense--no matter how professional our habits, we have accidents. And considering we are amateurs,
we have a lot MORE in a more unforgiving atmosphere--our neighborhood. Suppose we are making Cyanide outside, and by some accident Hydrogen Cyanide
fumes are generated. Now, chances are that most of it would be blown away--but we can't say we didn't put others at risk.
Look at the case of David Hahn, building a breeder reactor and irradiating his whole neighborhood!
Frankly, I think this is reasonable. All they really want us to do is store our chemicals properly, work in a safe environment, not put others at
risk, show respect for our surroundings, and otherwise not show recklessness--we can't be kids running around with loaded guns. Beyond that,
there is just a list of things they don't want you to make--explosives, drugs, and excessively toxic substances.
But if we are just out to further science, most people would, in fact, encourage that! The problem is who iprders the most chemicals and lab
equipment for "home use." The police and chemical companies have more experience with Meth-cooks than with Home Scientists, and they
respond as such.
I don't think anyone here should be as paranoid as you are. I say, flaunt your successes! Impress your peers with your accomplishments, you
will find life so much more enjoyable that way.true_alchemy - 30-9-2004 at 19:57
What can I say? I do not know the specific person you talked to etc. but I have never seen the acts of a government agent upon a chemical business or
home lab that was not based upon lie after lie. Most often these acts also include deliberate and ruthless damage and expense. I have followed
incidents involving "raids" on labs and businesses for some time. Usually the EPA, but the DEA , state hazmat and others also. Let's
face it! These guys love to have fun bullying and they must lie to justify it (if they can't find illegal activity). I wish I could give specific
examples of things they have done which brings me to another point. I also know of continual and extreme measures they often take to shut someone up.
I'm not talking about physical harm necessarily. I am talking about their political power and how many lies they can sneak through to the right
people in all facets and execute even more action before you can take the first step in truthful defense or especially in a law suit. To put it
another way, their actions are often blatently illegal or criminal and often very easy to prove but you never get a chance because they don't
stop untill you have no money or energy left to defend or sue.Magpie - 30-9-2004 at 20:33
Samosa I want to believe you are right as I feel I am a careful person who is not doing anything illegal. But, like true_alchemy has stated there
have been some real sobering cases reported in the media. In my own locale a family was busted in the middle of the night and forced out of their
home while the DEA & FBI confiscated their files and prevented them from hiring legal defense. That should just not be possible to happen to a
US citizen no matter what he is accused of! I don't know if this is the Patriot Act in action or what. They are accused of burying a large
amount of drug money on their property. This kind of incident is what makes me paranoid (and angry).true_alchemy - 30-9-2004 at 21:15
Yes magpie, but they also typically take business computers, all legal paperwork, correpondance with lawyers and you name it and I'm talking
about evidence that you actually have on them and this is actually the whole reason for the raid quite often.
I have to admit that this isn't along the lines of what I was thinking with the original question I made so I'll be more specific. Yes,
the patriot act is a killer but my most recent find is the DEA's "suspicious order criteria" for chemical suppliers. Have any of you
read this crap? It basically says "if you sell chemicals to anyone whos style is not like a 'good brainwashed little puppet chemist' we
are going to cause you trouble." They are quickly running small and legitimate chemical business out or businesses who deal in reality not
glamour.vulture - 1-10-2004 at 04:18
Quote:
we can't be kids running around with loaded guns.
In this statement lies the flawed judgement and hypocrisy of state, media and sheeple in general.
Guns were made to kill. It's safe to own a gun to protect yourself. Owning assault weapons (defense??) is now allowed again in the US.
And kids ARE running around with loaded guns. Columbine?
If a student would poison 10 fellow students with something he got out of a chemistry set all chemistry sets would be banned IMMEDIATLY and everybody
would be screaming bloody murder.
Did guns got banned after columbine? No.
I rest my case.
Hats of to someone who can pull this idiotic situation back into the right direction.true_alchemy - 1-10-2004 at 06:33
Ok, I,m not talking about "official government banning."
Let me be more specific. The top chemical distributors and laboratory suppliers "have been forced," in their own words, to cut off
customers, long time customers and new inquirers who meet the criteria contained in the DEA's "suspicious order criteria."
Some of the exact quotes from that regulation include :
" Customers who don't seem to know industry practice or who fail to provide reasons for an order at variance with accepted legitimate
industry practice.
Customer whose communications are not prepared or conducted in a professional business manner.*
Customer who has difficulty pronouncing chemical names.
Customer who is vague or will not furnish references for credit purposes.*
Customer who prefers to pay by cashiers check, postal money order, etc.
An established customer who deviates from previous orders or ordering methods.
Customer who requests unusual methods of delivery or routes of shipment
Customer who provides unusual shipping, labeling, or packaging instructions.
Customers who don't want to tell you what area they will resell into.
Customers who don't want to tell you in what volumes they will resell.
Customers who refuse to tell you who their customers are.
Customers who don't have limits on resales.
Customers who push to buy more than your sales limit.
Customers who repeatedly buy your sales limit at the shortest interval you set.
Any customer who asks for large bottle sizes, 60 count or higher.
Don't think that lab and chemical suppliers also don't ad lib on this. In fact that's what they are supposed to do according to the
DEA because these are just examples. Of those few I listed, all are commonly broken by legitimate and known chemical companies. I would add that
unless you want your procedures stolen you do not provide proprietary information. I have had many procedures stolen from large chemical companies
that I'm sure you are all famililiar with.
Another common characteristic of alchemists, according even to the history channel, is that they don't tell their secrets. It becomes obvious
why if you have been doing legitimate synthesis for a while. People steal your ideas and product lines!!
If you have not yet noticed the drastic affect taking place by this and other tyranny against the chemical industry you soon will.
Patriot Act
MadHatter - 1-10-2004 at 08:33
Recently there was a court ruling against a section of the Patriot Act. It
involved the FBI wanting records of customers from airlines, casinos, ISPs.
The judge in Nevada ruled against the U.S. government in the case on
the issue of privacy. John Ashcroft said he intends to appeal the ruling.
Even Bob Barr, a conservative politican from Georgia, hailed the ruling as a
victory for privacy. As a fellow conservative, I can truly say that this is 1 of
those few occasions when a liberal was needed to stand in the way of a
truly unconstitutional law. Without this some of my fellow conservatives
would run over our rights with a bulldozer ! With any luck, more rulings
like this will be on their way. Personally, I would like to see the entire
Patriot Act declared unconstitutional by the U.S. Supreme Court. Leave
us alone you wankers ! We're no threat to you !
Patriot Act
true_alchemy - 1-10-2004 at 09:08
Regarding the patriot act, I think that any American who cares about America should about puke if they read the patriot act. So few have actually
read it but unfortunately most "sheeple," as one here put it, would not even notice what it's really saying. It's strange to me
how so many are so mesmerized by an image they have of something that they can't even see what that image is really saying. So my guess is that
the people of America would largely accept anything their leaders just say is good as long as it's said with a smile. lol
I also believe, if history is any indication, that it will be kept largely silent for a while and then when it's time and they begin
enforcement of the patriot act on a large scale that the attitude will be "well it's been on the books for some time now, where have you
been? hey, it's american."
As far as instances of what appears to be "justice" against the patriot act, regardless if the individuals involved are really caring, it
all ends up just being part of "the show."vulture - 1-10-2004 at 10:56
What's even more shameful is that a large part of congressmen didn't even read the law before voting for it! They were too busy cashing the
lobbyist money I suppose...Hermes_Trismegistus - 1-10-2004 at 11:15
Quote:
Originally posted by true_alchemy
Hi all, this looks like a very interesting forum but from what I see so far, why the term "amateur?" Have you seen the ignorance that goes
on in what some may call "professional" chemistry?
Amateur was once a term of pride and a mark of privelege.
Many of the scientists of the 18 and 19th centuries were "Gentleman Scientists" who sought knowledge for it's own sake and for the
enlightenment of humanity. (and also for social standing)
Doing something for money was considered "crass" and "vulgar" and "lowbrow"
Whereas doing it for the love was NOBLE an PURE.
-----------------------------------------
Only recently has "amateur" become a synonym for "crappy"
----------------------------------------
One holdover from that era, is the olympics, in which professionals are strictly forbidden from competing.
--------------------------vulture - 1-10-2004 at 11:26
Amateur originates from French and could be translated as "enjoyer". The original meaning was in no way related to the quality of a persons
work because the word was simply used to indicate someone practiced something because they liked doing so.
Remember that all scientists in the 17th-19th century were in fact "amateurs".true_alchemy - 1-10-2004 at 12:12
Oh great guys, I remember when I thought the term alchemy or bench chemist was degrading until I found out that's what I really was. Now I am
going to have to call myself amateur because I enjoy it? hehe
No, actually you caught me. I was unthinkingly using the term incorrectly as most do I suppose. Thanks, truth is a good thing!
I do make money at what I do (legal synthesis) and I need help bad but I really enjoy it big time. 36years and I love it.
