Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Energetic Materials Forum

Energetic Materials Forum

subsecret - 17-8-2013 at 09:01

This might be a slightly controversial thing to post...and I will probably receive a lot of flack for this topic...

I think that the Energetic Materials subforum should be removed from Sciencemadness.

Pretty shocking, right?

I understand that some people enjoy the preparation of energetic materials, but I think it's just too edgy to be placed on a forum where many chemists want to practice much less edgy chemistry. We all know that explosives are not the most socially accepted hobby. Because of this, we should try to segregate the people who prepare explosives from the people who don't. The Energetic Materials forum subforum might give Sciencemadness a bad rap - by being associated with explosives - and that's not why we're here. Many of us (Including me) don't practice the synthesis of energetic materials, and we don't want to be associated with people who do.

Sorry for the controversiality, but I think it needs to happen.

papaya - 17-8-2013 at 09:51

I'm not an EM fan, but to answer short - commit a suicide please!

[Edited on 17-8-2013 by papaya]

plante1999 - 17-8-2013 at 09:58

Papaya, I do think your post will be deleted, asking someone to do suicide is not well seen...

Anyhow, I'm not a fan too, but mostly due to the type of work/experimentation done.

papaya - 17-8-2013 at 10:02

NO, please let him see it, I'm only expressing things metaphorically, not more, I just gave him know that His opinion is very esteemed

subsecret - 17-8-2013 at 10:09

You should also understand that explosives are too edgy for some of us. We simply don't want to be associated with people who are into that. There are other forums specifically for fireworks/explosives, so don't bring your kewlishness here. Not saying that there's no actual chemistry/stoichiometry involved, I'm just saying that blowing things up should not be related to a forum for chemists who wish to practice their hobby without taking it too far.

[Edited on 17-8-2013 by Awesomeness]

plante1999 - 17-8-2013 at 10:11

Ha, Ha, my kewlishness, sounds about right. You certainly don't know me well enough.

Most of SM amateur energetic maker are Kewl, but not all of them.

subsecret - 17-8-2013 at 10:13

Sorry plante, wasn't referring to you as a kewl. I've seen some of your posts, they seem pretty... non-kewlish...for lack of better words..

confused - 17-8-2013 at 10:19

well, i can see where you're coming from, but most of the regular posters in the EM section do really interesting work at that section, so long as they follow all forum rules, no one gets seriously injured and nothing all that bad happens, i dont see why it should be removed

[Edited on 17-8-2013 by confused]

papaya - 17-8-2013 at 10:20

Your claims are inconsistent awesome that I even didn't want to answer. YOU don't want to be associated with something "wrong" in your opinion and that's why this is OTHERS' problem?

Perfect!
I hope the older and much respected/experienced members will not omit this thread and make it clear that they disagree with you a little.

subsecret - 17-8-2013 at 10:24

I hope that I am also speaking for others. I think the EM section is further "tarnishing" the reputation of the amateur chemist. Showing that the hobby is involved with the production of explosives certainly isn't good. I think that we should follow the most stringent regulations proposed by members...you should also understand that there are other places on the internet pertaining to energetic materials. Instead of drawing suspicion and dirtying our reputation, I think that the most edgy subforum should migrate elsewhere.

Confused, I completely see where you are coming from. They do follow safety precautions and keep themselves safe. The problem of legality and suspicion arises...they might be able to keep it legal, but it doesn't really look right. If we want to keep this hobby alive, we need a little bit of separation so we don't look like that sort of chemist.

[Edited on 17-8-2013 by Awesomeness]

papaya - 17-8-2013 at 10:30

How old are you, Boss?

confused - 17-8-2013 at 10:34

well, i feel that obscuring the fact that chemistry is used for the production of explosives is not the way to go, how can we expect people to trust us if we dont acknowledge the fact that chemistry (as with any technology or science) can be used both for good and evil.
I feel that the right way to do so is to educate the public on chemical education and both the risks and benefits of it

subsecret - 17-8-2013 at 10:41

I absolutely agree, but that's not how the common person will see it. That's definitely one way to improve the appearance of the hobby, but as far as I know, that hasn't happened yet. People are uninformed, and until people see that we're not trying to hurt people, it's risky.

How old am I? I'm not even going to bother to answer. You shouldn't base your argument on one'sage, should you? Might I ask...why you referred to me as "boss?" I'm not trying to be the boss of anything, I'm just showing an opinion. You're fuming over the fact that I'm defending my opinions. I don't see why you're so hostile to an idea that doesn't necessarily involve you

confused - 17-8-2013 at 10:52

well, there are people reaching out to educate the public about chemistry
one such example would be (http://www.youtube.com/user/periodicvideos?hl=en-GB&gl=)

The thing is, most of the education efforts are aimed at children and teenagers.
We need to be more open about our hobby to our friends/neighbours even though they may reject it at first, you need to convince them that at the very least, it is safe and will pose no hazzard to them. (When's the last time you had a proper chat with your neighbours anyway

)

Marvin - 17-8-2013 at 10:52

It's a pretty common "my shit doesn't stink" reaction. You want to be as far divorced from the less popular element as possible so that what you do seems more acceptable to the wider public.

When a community splinters it makes it much easier for everyone to be squashed. What we do has hard edges set by law and we need to defend those edges from creep. Abandoning ground never works in the long run. Not in war, civil rights, or what is socially acceptable. Divide and be conquered.

[Edited on 17-8-2013 by Marvin]

Fantasma4500 - 17-8-2013 at 10:53

i understand that you see explosives as being dangerous, as people without knowledge or any idea on what the hell theyre doing DO make them from time to time, but hey natural selection isnt a completely new thing, everything you hear on the mass medias today are made up to be more and more dangerous, even argon ive seen considered as ''toxic'' on the news, and it still hurts to just think about it to this day.

requesting that the people who knows right from wrong to be cut off to what they like to do, and what they know about is downright trying to dictate, look at the new rules for writing texts in schools, few of the words that are to be excluded from what theyre allowed to write are such as ''computer'' or ''birthday''
because some people SOMEHOW managed to get slightly offended by birthday?

energetics is a part of chemistry, and it should never be seen as not being part of chemistry
again i mention, natural selection is not new, and has occurred from the very first moment man faced fire, and decided that it was a bad idea to hold his hand in twice

papaya - 17-8-2013 at 10:57

Quote: Originally posted by Awesomeness

I don't see why you're so hostile to an idea that doesn't necessarily involve you

I also don't see why you're ... you got it.

subsecret - 17-8-2013 at 11:01

I certainly agree . . . I understand that the chemists interested in the synthesis of energetic materials know what they're doing, and they do it safely. I didn't start this discussion due to problems regarding safety, but rather due to how it might make the hobby look. I'm all for having energetic materials involved...the problem is that it might look sketchy. It certainly is a part of chemistry, as I outlined earlier. I also agree with your opinion that this world has become paranoid about chemists..nobody understands that we're good people. I'm afraid that there's no way to satisfy people's ideals at the moment.

Additionally, I admit that I regret saying that the EM subforum should be removed, but I continue to hold the opinion that it's not as well understood as the "fundamental" sections. I hold the opinion that explosives are too edgy for the modern society, so I will keep myself out of explosives synthesis.

Thank you, and a sincere apology.

BromicAcid - 17-8-2013 at 11:05

Pthhhh... next thing you know you'll be telling me I shouldn't be distilling anhydrous perchloric acid or that I'm crazy for wanting to make a fluorine cell. If there was not a dedicated sub-forum then it would just be mixed with organic chemistry no doubt. Read some of the more famous chemistry memoirs, the majority of them start out with making things that go bang in the night. I would be tempted to say that energetics are the single most common thing to get people interested in chemistry outside of academia, perhaps even illicit drugs.

Besides, the forum itself is I think one of the more advanced sections of sciencemadness. We don't get daily threads on acetone peroxide, nitrocellulose, or nitroglycerine. Far from it, our energetics forum here is full of thinkers and tinkerers and I am glad to read the majority of the posts that find their way there in spite of the fact that I will not be making any of those compounds myself.

The_Davster - 17-8-2013 at 11:13

So you are saying it should be segregated away, and relegated to "back of the bus" status so you do not have to deal with "their kind"?

Sciencemadness only discriminates based on whether the pursuit is for academic interest vs practical use. Considering chemistry at home as a "hobby" is already considered edgy in the eyes of the public, hiding certain elements in the shadows is not the way to gain acceptance.

It is also regularly followed by academics in the explosives field. Ideas from there have literally been published in academic literature months or years later.

If you want super-tame chemistry where you are discouraged from using anything more dangerous than dilute acids because it could be dangerous, chemicalforums may be more your style. But good luck getting part of the "madness" out of "sciencemadness"

papaya - 17-8-2013 at 11:13

Quote: Originally posted by Awesomeness

I'm all for having energetic materials involved...the problem is that it might look sketchy.

Thinking that one can change the world or the social opinion is naive, unless really possessing enough resources for influence. Fear and stupidity just are not going ever to disappear. Don't facilitate ignorance by ignorance!

subsecret - 17-8-2013 at 11:35

My god, did I not say that I'm not concerned about personal danger, but danger in the eyes of the public? I work with hydrochloric acid all the time, and occasionally go without gloves. Read some posts so you understand what's going on, and don't just jump to the bottom and repeat something...

woelen - 17-8-2013 at 11:54

I think that the energetics section adds something to sciencemadness and that it should not be removed, censored, put behind a password or whatever. Energetics is part of chemistry and has its place.

Energetic materials is something different than "making explosives" or "making fireworks". I myself do not do pyrotechnics, but I sometimes do some experiments with energetic materials (e.g. making peroxo compounds of chromium metal and vanadium metal, making guanidine perchlorate salt, making chlorine azide gas). These things I do not consider anything practical and certainly will not find any use in a practical bomb, but it is quite special and sometimes also spectacular chemistry. I like to do things beyond the common (e.g. making compounds with very special oxidation states, such as copper in oxidation state +3, nickel in oxidiation state +1, chromium in oxidation state +5, and silver in oxidiation state +3) and sometimes these endeavors bring me into the realm of energetic compounds. It would be a sad thing if this forum would not allow posting about such compounds.

I do agree that energetics can be abused and there may be some crap posting like "how can I blow up ....". The k3wl stuff definitely should not find a place on sciencemadness, and sometimes I think that the section on energetic materials could have a somewhat better quality, but this is of a total different matter than feeling that this section should be removed.

And yes, it is the energetics that triggers the interest of young people for chemistry. My first real chemistry demo at high school was the violent reaction between KClO3 and powdered sulphur and after seeing that demo I was hooked. Chemistry from that moment was my favorite subject on high school and I started doing experiments at home. I soon learnt that chemistry is much more than energetics and nowadays I have no interest in pyrotechnics as such, but sometimes I do some fun fire and smoke experiments (at a small scale, 1 gram or less) with other persons, just to raise their interest and make them enthusiastic.

bfesser - 17-8-2013 at 15:39

Awesomeness, you can take offense to this if you like, but I mean none by it; your suggestion to remove the Energetic Materials (EM) forum was stupid. It's been a part of this community from the beginning, and this forum has the most legitimate EM culture I've seen online. Personally, I don't care for it and have no interest in being involved with it, but I certainly don't think we need to get rid of it. Besides, we have plenty of top-notch moderators patrolling that section (obviously I'm not one of them) and fending off the k3wls and maintaining a minimum level of professionalism—as amateurs, that's an oxymoron, I know.

[Edited on 17.8.13 by bfesser]

subsecret - 17-8-2013 at 18:35

That's absolutely fantastic (no sarcasm). I'm certainly glad to hear that we've got people preventing recklessness.

One thing that all of you seemed to miss is that I'm not concerned for the safety of members, I was only concerned about how the hobby is thought of. I'd previously noticed that EM was full of things such as syntheses for explosives (which I personally have no problem having there), not the "other" energetic compounds that were mentioned in this thread.

sonogashira - 18-8-2013 at 01:20

I agree. Delete it and ban all the members who have ever posted there! Ban them all. Every last one of them! Good idea.

Rosco Bodine - 18-8-2013 at 03:54

To the OP and like minds

The proposal being made is like suggesting at an automobile forum that it would be a breach of decorum to discuss the internal combustion engine.

What an excessive narcissist who would care more about what comrade narcissists may think that could present some kind of "image problem" where the "optic" presented to kindred narcissist "watchers" would be deemed a weightier matter than the thousands of man hours at research and experimental work of persons doing REAL SCIENCE which is proposed should be simply discarded, for allegedly lacking the quality "awesomeness" of the stupid narcissist who would be the book burning censor. There are no polite words to respond to such shallow people.

Rock and Roll is here to stay. IMO, fuck off and take your "awesomeness" and PC with you. You are just too awesomely superior for us non-stupid narcissist types.

As for my "authorization" to do science ....well I got a note from my mommy if I really ever needed it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13tn8nq_sGw

<iframe sandbox width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/13tn8nq_sGw?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

please leave the embed because it circumvents and preempts the ad content for the link

[Edited on 18-8-2013 by Rosco Bodine]

subsecret - 18-8-2013 at 09:18

Looks like the people here have absolutely no understanding that things change. Instead of ignoring comments posted by me saying that I understand your point now that you've repeated it many times, you seem to keep trying to pound it into my head. Instead of observing that I see your point (and even agree with it), more people join the thread and start screaming. This isn't necessary. Hopefully you see that many others before you have stated what you are about to say, please refrain from posting more posts with an increasingly vitriolic attitude. You should see that you've made a point, and also see that I'm no longer against the EM forum.

Someone will probably join to fray and continue to keep screaming about something that has been settled. As for narcissism, I was only trying to preserve the hobby for myself and others. I admit, however, that I was taking the wrong approach toward this goal.

Additionally, remarks about my narcissistic username have come from people who would like to make this argument personal. If you'd like, we can make the argument personal. Usernames, quite commonly, do not reflect the personality of the people behind them. I recall a member who chose the username of Pyro...he even said that it doesn't necessarily represent him.

[Edited on 18-8-2013 by Awesomeness]

sonogashira - 18-8-2013 at 10:23

Quote: Originally posted by Awesomeness

I'm no longer against the EM forum.

I put my neck on the line for you!!! Traitor, coward, 5th column traitor coward spineless traitor! I thought you were a man of conviction!

subsecret - 18-8-2013 at 10:44

We can also tell jokes if you'd like. Someone has to change their opinions if the argument ends, correct? I'm not into EM's, but I have withdrawn my opinion to remove the EM forum.

sonogashira - 18-8-2013 at 11:38

Yeah. Best joke was this:

Quote: Originally posted by Awesomeness

I think that the Energetic Materials subforum should be removed from Sciencemadness.

Pretty shocking, right?

I was pretty shocked, make no mistake.

subsecret - 18-8-2013 at 16:25

If you want to continue this further, it's your loss :cool:

froot - 18-8-2013 at 22:08

Quote:

I have withdrawn my opinion to remove the EM forum.

Great, detritus this topic then shall we.