Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Hydrazine Picrate Synthesis?

APO - 14-6-2013 at 10:43

I heard on another thread that Hydrazine Picrate is possible. If so could it be synthesized from Hydrazine Sulfate and not Pure Hydrazine?

I really have no idea.

AndersHoveland - 16-6-2013 at 08:17

Seems to me this compound is rather useless. I am not even sure it is any less sensitive or more powerful than plain picric acid.
Ammonium Picrate might be useful for sensitizing NH4NO3, or possibly some fusion between picric and hydrazinium nitrate. Hydrazinium nitrate (the mono-nitrate) has a melting point around 63 °C. A small amount of picric acid would probably dissolve into such a melt, then it could be allowed to cool to form a solid mix. This would likely be very hazardous, of course. If you do try it, be sure to use a hot water bath to melt it, NOT direct heating.

caterpillar - 16-6-2013 at 08:58

Why do you always think about exotic shit, which hardly can be prepared? It is typical childish behavior. Make picric acid and its salts- ammonium and kalium ones. There is no way to leap over simple things directly to complicate procedures. Time to grow up.

Ral123 - 16-6-2013 at 09:12

Quote: Originally posted by caterpillar  
Why do you always think about exotic shit, which hardly can be prepared? It is typical childish behavior. Make picric acid and its salts- ammonium and kalium ones. There is no way to leap over simple things directly to complicate procedures. Time to grow up.

Exactly. We hardly have any idea what happens in our reactions really. We have no idea what isomers of the TNP are given and how much lower nitrates are made. How does the product behave in storage. What happens in contact with copper and aluminium. How can the acidity interact with other compounds like RDX or AP. It would be great to have a maximum density melt of 20% TNP 80% RDX wouldn't it? Like overpowered composition B. I'm currently making tests on the storage under extreme conditions on some compounds.

APO - 16-6-2013 at 19:57

If you're not interested with exotics, then don't click on threads that are specifically titled with them.

Finnnicus - 16-6-2013 at 20:13

Title it "Hydrazine Picrate - Exotic EM" or something to that effect. Then you should avoid the hate, otherwise, they're in the wrong.

Ral123 - 16-6-2013 at 20:17

It would be great if somebody makes an exotic and posts video of tests and reports stability and possible issues.

Finnnicus - 16-6-2013 at 20:30

Any volunteers? "Ahem APO Ahem*

APO - 16-6-2013 at 22:14

Give me something, and I'll try with the reagents I have.

Finnnicus - 16-6-2013 at 22:26

Well hydrazine picrate. Here there, but with picric acid instead of sulfuric. Somebody confirm this?

APO - 16-6-2013 at 22:39

So pretty much that makes Hydrazine in situ before being neutralized with Sulfuric Acid?

Hockeydemon - 17-6-2013 at 00:14

Quote: Originally posted by APO  
Give me something, and I'll try with the reagents I have.


Gah, you live in an apartment! You worry the fuck out of me kid.

Finnnicus - 17-6-2013 at 00:20

Quote: Originally posted by Hockeydemon  

Gah, you live in an apartment! You worry the fuck out of me kid.


Oh shit sorry! Dont do what I told you to. I was very wrong. Hydrazine in any form in an apartment is probably a bad idea.

APO - 17-6-2013 at 09:20

Awwww.

Finnnicus - 17-6-2013 at 09:27

Maybe if you can find a better place? TNP is not so bad, but HNO3 in an apartment is an accident waiting to happen.

AndersHoveland - 18-6-2013 at 04:55

Quote: Originally posted by caterpillar  
Why do you always think about exotic shit, which hardly can be prepared?

I do not see how that would be any more difficult to prepare than hydrazine picrate. Preparing hydrazinium nitrate from a hydrazine salt would not be any more difficult than making hydrazine picrate. And either way, you need picric acid.

Why do you say it would be "exotic" ?


Ever heard of freebasing?

Another route might be to try calcium picrate with hydrazine sulfate, though that might not be very successful since hydrazine sulfate has a rather low solubility, a repeated fractional crystallization may not be very practical. (CaSO4 is insoluble, so precipitates out of the solution, if you did not know that you should not be messing with hydrazine)

[Edited on 18-6-2013 by AndersHoveland]

caterpillar - 18-6-2013 at 12:04

Quote: Originally posted by AndersHoveland  


Why do you say it would be "exotic" ?

[Edited on 18-6-2013 by AndersHoveland]


Exotic here means, that this compound is useless and has no advantages, compared with simple ammonium picrate.

APO - 18-6-2013 at 15:03

I didn't even thing of calcium picrate, thankyou Anders.

Finnnicus - 18-6-2013 at 17:35

Above, I meant hydrazine.

Fantasma4500 - 19-6-2013 at 05:55

Quote: Originally posted by Finnnicus  
but HNO3 in an apartment is an accident waiting to happen.


how so..? as in actual HNO3 spill or NOx fumes?

APO - 19-6-2013 at 14:07

I think he meant N2H4, not HNO3.

Finnnicus - 19-6-2013 at 21:05

Sorry for being so vague, here:
Quote:
...but HNO3 in an apartment is an accident waiting to happen.

I meant N2H4. With a mistake it could cause poisoning of everybody! Hydrazine poisoning is not very nice... and easy to come by from the vapor.

caterpillar - 21-6-2013 at 01:51

BTW, once I made small amount of calcium picrate. I do not sure, that this compound is soluble in water, so it hardly could be used for synthesis of another salts. I'm not sure, because I made all salts (except lead one), mixing slurry of picric acid with small amount of water and corresponding carbonate (natrium, kalium, ammonium and so on). Small excess of carbonate is useful, because it guarantees neutral reaction. Free acid usually is not welcome. Well, I burned calcium salt and did not found something really remarkable compared with kalium one.

APO - 22-6-2013 at 11:20

What do mean "I do not sure, that this compound is soluble in water" ?

caterpillar - 22-6-2013 at 14:18

Just what I said. I had a slurry of picric acid and some water. I added CaCO3 in small portions, mixing it with a plastic spoon. When evolution of CO2 has stopped, I dried obtained product. As you may see, I had no way to get to know if calcium picrate is soluble. I do not see, why there are recommendations to dissolve picric acid in water and neutralize it with ammonia (or another base). BS. Small amount of water, added to aforementioned acid, makes it able to react with carbonates (dry acid does not react or reacts very slowly). Evolution of CO2 indicates if free acid presents or already not.

[Edited on 22-6-2013 by caterpillar]