Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Insensitive/Practical Recreational Explosives

Insensitive/Practical Recreational Explosives

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Armistice19 - 1-6-2013 at 18:19

As we all know Independence Day is just over a month away, and some of us can hear the fireworks in our neighborhoods already. Every year around this time I usually get out my AL, KCLO4 and Static Guard and make some FP for the occasion, but after 4 years of BP and FP I feel it may be time to step it up. We have a large remote area to work with, and safety is always our first concern. That means if we are going to make bigger batches we need to think of something more stable/insensitive than FP, yet more powerful than BP. I am currently a Lab Tech at a refractories research center, and I have been making basic explosive/incendiary mixes at home for 7 years now. Perhaps I would consider making a decent blasting cap for something like ANFO, but It's currently in the upper 80's-90's here in Western PA, and this would be my first time making a blasting cap. To sum it up, I need suggestions for some simple, easily manufactured, practical, and insensitive explosives.

[Edited on 2-6-2013 by Armistice19]

caterpillar - 1-6-2013 at 20:11

Simple in preparation? Picric acid, nitrourea. TATP as initiator. Or lead salt of aforementioned picric acid.

chemcam - 1-6-2013 at 20:48

If he has never performed a nitration before I don't think picric acid should be the first..but that's just me. I would say silver acetylide or mercury fulminate for primary and ETN for secondary if inexperienced with HEs.

Finnnicus - 1-6-2013 at 22:20

Nitrourea with a fulminated primary, IMO that would be good for you (or me).

caterpillar - 1-6-2013 at 23:49

Well, I forget about silver acetylide. It is good for beginners too, but according to my own experience and all of what I've read TATP is not as dangerous as many people think. All relatively save primaries are not for beginners. If you wanna play this game, some risk is inescapable. 1 gr of sensitive explosive may evaporate your finger. That's all. You may be killed only when you insert detonator into main charge. Do it and run away. Use electric ignition system, it can be easily prepared. Fuse is a more dangerous thing- many people was killed, thinking that it stopped to burn.

Ral123 - 2-6-2013 at 00:05

There are ways to be 100% safe with AP, but I'm lazy and prefer the 99.5%. We wont take decisions about your safety, so make your own research.

Armistice19 - 2-6-2013 at 04:23

If it is in fact true that there are ways to be 100% safe with AP then I might consider synthesis, but only if I made an extremely small amount first, and then work my way up. I will do some research. As I said, it is 80-90 degrees over here, and I do not want to loose a finger or worse. As far as picric acid goes, I'm just not comfortable with it. If I were to perform my first nitration I would like to start with something safer like nitrocellulose. Let me be clear that I do not have any professional lab equipment at home, and would be doing this in an improvised fashion. (which reminds me I need to buy a new scale)

It also appears that HMTD may be a good option if synthesized somewhere cooler with air conditioning perhaps?

[Edited on 2-6-2013 by Armistice19]

[Edited on 2-6-2013 by Armistice19]

Ral123 - 2-6-2013 at 05:54

The 100% safety comes when you're ready for it's auto detonation, if the detonator inserts itself in the main, after the fuze is like, 50% burned or something. Yes NC is a decent secondary. I have one, it's almost year old. Only washed with tap water. I'm storing it in a black film can under the sun and it still hasn't autoignited at over 60C every day for a few hours. It hasn't lost power.

gnitseretni - 2-6-2013 at 06:14

http://www.intheredexplodingtargets.com/

No blasting cap neccesary. Just shoot it with a high caliber rifle. Fun, safe AND legal!

EDIT: Forgot discount code "gy6vids"
I believe you'll get 15% off.

[Edited on 6-2-2013 by gnitseretni]

Armistice19 - 2-6-2013 at 14:46

Yes tannerite is cool, never shot it yet but I've heard alot about it. However I'm really more trying to test myself with actually making something at this point. I love to create, and watch my creations go boom. I would like to feel proud this year, and go big or go home. In other words, store bought explosives are out of the question in my mind. Synthesis in and of itself is a joyful experience. Ease of manufacture is important only because I have a month to obtain materials and begin production. Really, I am much more concerned about how safe the material is to make, and how stable/insensitive it is after it is complete. I know I am just a beginner, but I would rather try to make something and fail multiple times, than succeed and blow my hands off.

(Also please no tertiary suggestions at this point, I know I already said ANFO but tertiaries seem a bit too complex at this point)

[Edited on 2-6-2013 by Armistice19]

[Edited on 2-6-2013 by Armistice19]

Hennig Brand - 2-6-2013 at 15:40

Picric acid is pretty safe, except for the poisonous fumes produced during the synthesis. It can be quite challenging to make properly, if a challenge is what you are looking for. It doesn't require a lot of actual lab equipment, but some helps. A glass coffee pot and a hot plate can be made to work with a little effort (manual swirling or stirring). A hotplate stirrer makes the synthesis much easier.

Really despite all the foolishness in the media, picric acid is one of the safer explosives most hobbyist experiment with. Of course if you just want a bang there are far easier things to produce.

chemcam - 2-6-2013 at 15:45

The reason I say picric acid is not for beginners is because of the synthesis itself, you need to be experienced in nitrations to get it to work, runaways are extremely easy to accidently cause with PA. Its extremely poisonous itself along with NO2. When the OP says he wants to practice with nitrocellulose first that screams good idea. Its what I did.

Hennig Brand - 2-6-2013 at 15:55

I just thought he might get bored with NC after a while and want a bit more of a challenge. The OP is completely free to make up his own mind. There is a lot of hype surrounding picric acid and the dangers associated with it. I think you may be right that the difficulty level may not be right for a beginner, but I feel that it is probably one of the safer ones from an accidental explosion perspective. Just use lots of ventilation and common sense as the fumes are poisonous.

golfpro - 2-6-2013 at 16:30

I am wondering if this is a relatively safe procedure. Protective glasses and ear plugs are worn, a 2 inch plastic tube selaed on one end about the diameter of a pencil is placed in a mounted steel vice grip to hold in place. Filled 2/3 full w/ dry HMTD using a small paper funnel and plastic spoon, this is hand pressed with a plastic tee smoothed on the end. Then poke a hole carefully for Visco fuse which is then stuck in, and then a bit of epoxy on the HMTD and around the fuse sealing it.

-Would this work well?
-How long can these be stored
-approx. how much HMTD would fill 2 inches of pen tube?

[Edited on 3-6-2013 by golfpro]

gnitseretni - 2-6-2013 at 18:08

Go big or go home. That means you not only need a HE that's easily made but one that's also easily scaled up. Since you're new to nitrations, that IMO rules out secondary HE's made by nitration since you said you only got a month. Probably best to stick to ANFO or Tannerite for main charge and focus on making reliable/safe blasting caps, because those are definitely not something to put together last minute! I'll leave primary HE recommendations for use in blasting caps to others.

Armistice19 - 2-6-2013 at 18:24

golfpro, I have been known to make the same mistake in the past, but please have a more related, contributional/appropriate mindset when using this resource.

Anyway, NC sounds very much my level. I am also looking at lead azide simply for it's standard use as a primary because of it's relative stability. I understand this may be a bit more difficult to synth than other primaries, and requires a clean environment free of all contaminants, especially copper or zinc. However I am comfortable purchasing SOME lab equipment and chemicals to make the process easier, but after a new car purchase I have a slim budget. Also does anyone have a decent thorough Figure of Insensitivity chart? I would love to take a gander at one!

As far as ANFO goes, I would love too! It's ingredients are readily available, and the slurry is quite easy to make, but I know NOTHING about boosters. Lets not forget that the month I have to work with includes the delivery time for materials and equip. If I have to wait till next year I will, I was just hoping for the best.

[Edited on 3-6-2013 by Armistice19]

[Edited on 3-6-2013 by Armistice19]

golfpro - 2-6-2013 at 18:42

Armistice, look at the HE salute diagram at about 1:05 in this vid, it is something I want to try also. It is heat shock detonated. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ux4SQQjOts

caterpillar - 2-6-2013 at 21:33

Quote: Originally posted by chemcam

The reason I say picric acid is not for beginners is because of the synthesis itself, you need to be experienced in nitrations to get it to work, runaways are extremely easy to accidently cause with PA. Its extremely poisonous itself along with NO2. When the OP says he wants to practice with nitrocellulose first that screams good idea. Its what I did.

I disagree. PA is just for beginners- it does not require special lab glass at all. Here is a tread on this compound. I used 3 liter glass vessel from under cucumbers and simple pot as hot water bath. When I used KNO3 (or NaNO3) + H2SO4, I had no runaway nor problem with NO2. Very small and negligible amount. (but NH4NO3 gave me runway, not very intensive, however). It is interesting compound, and its salts has some useful properties.

froot - 2-6-2013 at 23:15

When you decide on an insensitive formula you will always need more initiator which is always characteristically more sensitive, basically negating the comfortability in the recreation you want to have. Once there is an initiator in or close to any insensitive energetic compound you have a situation that demands the same upmost liquor free respect as would nitroglycerin or any organic peroxide that's been suggested here!
If I were you and you have to step up I'd explore the possibility of getting hold of some primer cord that's been manufactured to a tight spec. and have an expert with you when you do your thing, oh and post a vid!

People lighting short fuses and running from their peroxide jammed homebrew devices makes me shiver.

chemcam - 3-6-2013 at 14:58

Quote: Originally posted by golfpro

I am wondering if this is a relatively safe procedure. Protective glasses and ear plugs are worn, a 2 inch plastic tube sealed on one end about the diameter of a pencil is placed in a mounted steel vice grip to hold in place. Filled 2/3 full w/ dry HMTD using a small paper funnel and plastic spoon, this is hand pressed with a plastic tee smoothed on the end. Then poke a hole carefully for Visco fuse which is then stuck in, and then a bit of epoxy on the HMTD and around the fuse sealing it.
-Would this work well?
-How long can these be stored
-approx. how much HMTD would fill 2 inches of pen tube?

Sorry OP (Armistice19), I feel the need to save this persons fingers so I will answer his post.

That is not safe at all, fuse goes in first, then EM, then cap the end. Basically you shouldn't make it until the day you need it.

-I wouldn't do that, if epoxy is touching the HMTD and a piece gets in it, it will detonate when the epoxy hardens most likely
-Don't store peroxides made up into a det, make them when you are ready to use them. And don't store it loose either in a closed container.
-What? the space it takes up it totally dependent on its density and we have no way of knowing the size of the pen, how much you compact it and so on...

EDIT: Caterpillar, At least the OP is smart, he knows to start with NC and not listen to you.

[Edited on 6-3-2013 by chemcam]

Armistice19 - 3-6-2013 at 20:05

Chemcam, thank you for saving a fellow members fingers. If I had more knowledge of primaries I would have done the same. froot, I will absolutely post a vid! However, I don't really have any experts at my leisure, nor have I met any in my area (though I sincerely wish for that opportunity). Unfortunately it will be my sole responsibility to ensure my own safety this holiday season, just like the others before it. Having said this, I believe I will perform my first nitration as safely as possible, that means NC. I will probably make this a few times and try synthesizing more soluble/insoluble versions. Once I feel comfortable with that I might try doing some semi-sensitive nitrations in on a small scale before I eventually attempt mercury fulminate, and then eventually urea nitrate. Looks like this year is gonna be lots of NC. Can I get a big enough bang with this stuff (craters but no shrapnel)? Any safety suggestions while I continue research on NC synth?

Bert - 3-6-2013 at 21:47

How about this.

Go pro for the 4th.

Every professional display company in the USA will be running maxed out that day, and any of them you ask will most likely have a spot for an interested amateur to get some display crew work.

You want a new explosive related experience for the 4th and safety, that's my best recommendation. I run a company that does display work, contact me if you want to know more.

There's no such thing as a "safe primary explosive". There's no way that your first synthesis will be risk free, or assembly of a device using it will be either.

My primary concern in display work IS safety. Pleasing customers and making money come second-

Many of the kids answering your question here make my skin crawl when I see the things they're doing and posting on YouTube. They think I'm overly cautious. I used to know lots of confident kids like them- Some are dead. Some are maimed. Some learned to think things through, plan for the worst imaginable eventuality and to be prepared with a plan to deal with those eventualities when they come about despite their best effort to avoid them. That's what it takes to make it long term in this field-

chemcam - 3-6-2013 at 22:05

Bert, I agree with you, so many videos I have seen on youtube that make me nervous, short fuses, impure chems, no safety gear and the one that gets me the most is these people doing EM videos barefoot, WTF, huge explosions in populated areas...makes me sick. There are ways of learning about explosives safely, most people however choose to go from knowing nothing to making a 250mL batch of nitroglycerin or a kg of TATP.

What I always say...

Working with explosives is just like riding a motorcycle, if you are aware and cautious you will be fine, however, if you crash you will be dead or severely injured. -ChemCam

[Edited on 6-4-2013 by chemcam]

Armistice19 - 4-6-2013 at 19:45

Bert, I think I could learn a lot from an experience like that, and would be absolutely beneficial in my life. ChemCam I love your motorcycle analogy, it rings quite true, and it is very insightful. If I do find a display to help out with, then I would certainly save a $h!7 ton of money this year. Either way the ghost of Independence Day past has left me plenty of spare unused KCLO4, and a little experience too. Fear not, NC is still happening (with video) just not sure when at this point. We shall see.

caterpillar - 5-6-2013 at 00:21

Quote: Originally posted by chemcam

EDIT: Caterpillar, At least the OP is smart, he knows to start with NC and not listen to you.

[Edited on 6-3-2013 by chemcam]

It doesn't make him smart nor stupid. It is the choice of his own. I started with NC too, but later I realized that PA is more interesting and its preparation is no more complicate than preparation of NC (gun cotton).

Fantasma4500 - 5-6-2013 at 04:56

i would say etn as initiation aswell, you dont need a primary for that, you can shock initiate it and use rocket candy for it, aswell as using rocket candy as the fuse
an ammonal alike charge would be preferred.. sugar dynamon works well with 85 15 AN:Sugar
85 10 5 AN Su Al can be used instead which should be more sensitive, and you already got aluminium anyways

chemcam - 5-6-2013 at 08:45

Quote: Originally posted by caterpillar

I started with NC too, but later I realized that PA is more interesting and its preparation is no more complicate than preparation of NC (gun cotton).

I never got bored with NC, but anyway, what synthesis are you following that makes it as easy as NC? I have read a few online ones that wouldn't actually yield TNP, rather, DNP or lower.

Hennig Brand - 5-6-2013 at 09:06

I am not necessarily bored with NC either, maybe to a large extent because I have other interests as well. "Variety is the spice of life"

I guess there is always some DNP present in a sample of TNP and the amount can be quite large if strong enough acids aren't used and proper procedure isn't followed with regard to temperature, etc.

TNP requires much more knowledge, skill and technique to perform properly than does NC. The amount of actual attention and effort required with a NC synthesis is a fraction of what is required in running a decent TNP synthesis, IMHO.

[Edited on 5-6-2013 by Hennig Brand]

caterpillar - 5-6-2013 at 13:02

Well, boys, for both of you. NC has some problems- fibrous cotton's nature causes large amount of mixed acid. And then one has to press NC strongly or to dissolve it in an appropriate liquid. About PA- I dissolve phenol in sulfur acid. Then by means of hot water bath keep it at 100 Celsius for one hour. Cool it. I mix KNO3 (or NaNO3) with sulfur acid. Cool this mixture and add in small portions solution of phenol in sulfur acid. temperature must not be above 30 Celsius, therefore this process takes some hours. At the next day I put reaction vessel into water bath and slowly increase its temperature up to 100 Celsius and keep at this temperature for one hour. Then I put it into water with crushed ice, filter precipitate and wash with two small portions of cold water. That's all. 250 gr phenol + 800 gr of H2SO4 - it gives me sulfophenol and nitration mixture- 1000 gr of KNO3 + 1600 gr of H2SO4. I do not think that this process is very complicate. Just for beginners. Yeah, if you want to make kalium or ammonium picrate, add some water to PA and add K2CO3 or NH4HCO3 respectively to this slurry, mixing it with plastic. I used 92-94% sulfur acid.

chemcam - 5-6-2013 at 13:15

Yeah I guess we just have different views on easy processes and amounts of mixed acids. But nevertheless explosions are explosions no matter what HE you choose. But like member Hennig Brand says, "variety is the spice of life."

papaya - 5-6-2013 at 14:20

caterpillar, as you use KNO3 for nitration how is that you get pure PA and not potassium picrate (insoluble if I'm right)? I have no experience with this, just asking.

Hennig Brand - 5-6-2013 at 15:05

KHSO4, is what precipitates along with the TNP mostly I think.
"Potassium picrate requires 260 parts of cold or 14 parts of boiling water for solution" from "An Introduction to the Practice of Commercial Organic Analysis: ... - Page 331". Potassium bisulfate solubility in water at room temperature from Wikipedia (their usually right), 490g/L. Looks like you have a point about the solubility.

The acidic medium will convert potassium picrate to picric acid, or prevent formation of it. I think it will also reduce the solubility of the acid salt KHSO4.

papaya - 5-6-2013 at 15:17

Or you just can't tell what you get just from appearance

Could caterpillar somehow test for potassium in the product ? Also what about ammonium nitrate? Sodium must not cause problems. It is interesting question what can replace nitric acid without giving byproducts, always wanted to see some PA in my hands, but no way to obtain phenol and ascorbic from tablets is not practical

chemcam - 5-6-2013 at 15:31

Quote: Originally posted by papaya

It is interesting question what can replace nitric acid without giving byproducts, always wanted to see some PA in my hands, but no way to obtain phenol and ascorbic from tablets is not practical

Ascorbic acid? If you mean acetylsalicylic acid it is very practical. Cheaper than buying phenol.

Just use salicylic acid. You can use asperin as well but purification is recommended. I actually prefer to make salicylic acid from acetylsalicylic acid because its so damn cheap and its good fun.

papaya - 5-6-2013 at 15:36

Acetylsalicillic, sorry, but I asked what nitrates would be best (taking in mind the question about possible picrate formation), does ammonium nitrate yield PA or picrate ?

Hennig Brand - 5-6-2013 at 16:28

Ammonium picrate like potassium picrate is kept from forming, or converted to picric acid, by the acidic reaction mixture.

Sodium nitrate is best I think. Sodium nitrate gives a thinner more easily stirred reaction mixture than potassium nitrate does. A thinner reaction mixture allows for better mixing and a more efficient nitration, also the sulfate by-product is less problematic, I think, during separation and purification. Potassium nitrate can also work quite well, but produces a thicker mixture. Ammonium nitrate seems to be the least suitable and I am not exactly sure why. I obtained a low yield of impure product when using ammonium nitrate, but then again I was just learning about picric acid and the ammonium nitrate I used was most likely unpurified fertilizer grade. I should try it again sometime with purified stuff (recrystallized from water).

BTW, sodium nitrate can be made rather easily from ammonium nitrate and sodium bicarbonate or hydroxide.

Edit:

You know this has all been covered to death in several other threads about picric acid. Oh, Nerd Rage on You Tube has a good video on making sodium nitrate from ammonium nitrate (if its still up). Seek and ye shall find.

[Edited on 6-6-2013 by Hennig Brand]

caterpillar - 5-6-2013 at 21:15

Quote: Originally posted by papaya

Or you just can't tell what you get just from appearance

Sulfur acid is much stronger than PA, therefore do not worry about K (or Na) salts during preparation, if you use some salt of nitric acid instead of nitric acid itself. But I have to warn you: once I tried to use NH4NO3 instead of usual KNO3. I got a runaway (not intensive, however), significant amount of NO2 and what was the worst I got foam, which fulfilled my reaction vessel and slowly moved to my hot water bath. I think that mixed acid can be replaced with some salt of HNO3 + H2SO4 everywhere, except preparation of nitramines (RDX, HMX). ASA (aspirin) could be used too instead of phenol, but I never used it (I had phenol and therefore no reasons to use substitutes)

papaya - 6-6-2013 at 00:32

Quote: Originally posted by Hennig Brand

Oh, Nerd Rage on You Tube has a good video on making sodium nitrate from ammonium nitrate (if its still up). Seek and ye shall find.

Sure, but why waste Na2CO3, when theoretically the same reaction must go with AN ? I'm always trying to keep number of stages and wasted chemicals as less as possible.

Finnnicus - 6-6-2013 at 01:39

Umm, not sure about you, but Na2CO3 is 4$ for 500grams (hydrated). Sorry if this doesn't apply to you, but it's sold as letric soda at the supermarket.

papaya - 6-6-2013 at 02:30

Quote: Originally posted by Finnnicus

Umm, not sure about you, but Na2CO3 is 4$ for 500grams (hydrated). Sorry if this doesn't apply to you, but it's sold as letric soda at the supermarket.

Yes, but again WHY? Reformulating the question - does anybody know why AN should not work itself? (some said here they got runaways). As I know nitric esters form without complications with AN, so is there something special with picric?(yes I know it's not an ester

)

caterpillar - 6-6-2013 at 03:00

Quote: Originally posted by papaya

)

Try and see what will happen.

Bot0nist - 6-6-2013 at 03:39

I never had trouble with runaways using ammonium nitrate in a PA synth. Rosco and Quicksilver were discussing a while back about how using alkali nitrates over ammonium nitrates, and even differences between sodium nitrate and potassium nitrate. Differences beyond solubility and stoichiometric amounts of -NO3 per gram. It is tried and true that NaNO3 gives better yield and less DNP in the PA synth. I can not seem to find a definitive reason for this, but it has been discussed in many past threads.

papaya - 6-6-2013 at 11:03

The reason MAY be that sodium sulfate can take up to 10xH2O into complex Na2SO4x10H2O which if is true will be a huge advantage (dessication effect) over other nitrates. A similar effect I observed while getting H2O2 out of percarbonate, look ''Leaching H2O2 from percarbonate'' thread. But the thing is all this is not proven directly, just easy explanation of an observed effect.

[Edited on 6-6-2013 by papaya]

First baby step

Armistice19 - 8-6-2013 at 08:19

UPDATE:
Materials for NC synth. Have been ordered. Improvised equipment was no longer an option in my mind due to safety/quality of final product. Thus lab equipment was worth the heavy price IMO.

MATERIALS ORDERED:
nitric acid 70%
sulfuric acid 98%
Urea
Sodium hydroxide
Beakers
Glass stirring rods
Graduated cylinders
Mortar and pestle
pH test strips
Analytical balance 300/0.001

Everything was purchased from Ebay. I will use NaOH as my dilute aqueous base for acid neutralization, and will be adding 0.5% urea to my acetone laquer as an added safety precaution. During the delivery time I will continue in depth research of NC. I Would have loved to have purchased some Hg if I ever decided to attempt fulmination down the road, however what I have found so far online is much too expensive. Perhaps there is another primary option for sometime in the future?

Comments? Criticizm?

[Edited on 8-6-2013 by Armistice19]

golfpro - 8-6-2013 at 11:03

Holy COW!!!!

I bet you get a firm knock on your door/kicked down instead of these things ever being delivered. Good luck.

hyfalcon - 8-6-2013 at 11:06

I don't see a thing in that list to get excited about golfpro. I ordered 4-2.5l bottles of 68% Nitric from a biodiesel supply house. I use it to reclaim silver from scrap.

golfpro - 8-6-2013 at 11:16

As many news stories I see now of homes being raided and "explosive devices found," I won't order anything more than a glass beaker and thermometer maybe a stirring rod, I'm probably a bit on the cautious side though

I think that would be cool though if you did mercury fulminate, I am trying to fugre what is the easiest inroganic primary (or non organic peroxide). You should post your next order you make too if you order more.

chemcam - 8-6-2013 at 13:43

Purchasing nitric acid and sulfuric acid at the same time is not too wise because anyone with a little chemistry knowledge knows it is for nitration. What they would think by reading your list is that you want to make nitrourea which is fairly powerful.

I get my mercury from medical equipment and switches. Just look around and you'll find it for free.

Armistice19 - 8-6-2013 at 14:14

chemcam, thanks for the purchasing advice, I just wanted to let everyone know that each of the acids were bought from separate sellers, however this does not negate the fact that everything shows up on my Ebay account. In all seriousness, should I be worried? Is big brother on his way? I personally am not too worried at all. My impression was that chemicals are legal, but what you do with them may not be. Is my shopping list probable cause? If it is, I only have chemicals, no explosives. Wouldn't I have to be in the process of making NC, transporting it, or storing it for it to be illegal?

chemcam - 9-6-2013 at 15:03

If you purchased a large amount of the acids I would be slightly worried but if <1000mL you should be okay. And yes you are right the chemicals are legal, however if law enforcement saw your purchases and the same dates they probably wouldn't come to your door until a couple days after you received the packages to try and catch you red handed nitrating things. In actuality though I would not worry, you should be okay. Just in the future be more aware of what you buy online.

There is a law in the USA, sort of vague law, that says having the chemicals needed to make drugs or explosives is enough to make an arrest. Meaning if somebody owns acetone, H2O2, and acid they can be arrested, obviously about every house has that so it is likely during trial you would have charges dropped. I believe this law is there to allow law enforcement more time to prove intent and gather other evidence. So in actuality for that charge you WOULD go to jail but only until your trial, in USA that means usually a month but up to one year. Don't let that scare you from experimenting.

[Edited on 6-10-2013 by chemcam]

Armistice19 - 9-6-2013 at 15:19

So ummm.... is 1900mL H2SO4 and 946mL HNO3 enough to make you slightly worried?

Or say maybe like...I dunno, 2lbs of urea???

......

I'm going to prison aren't I? I'm actually going to jail. Oh God. Okay this hasn't sunk in yet, maybe if I just sit on the chemicals for now, lay low? F***

[Edited on 9-6-2013 by Armistice19]

[Edited on 9-6-2013 by Armistice19]

chemcam - 9-6-2013 at 16:16

It is unlikely, You can rest easy, I didn't mean to scare you just make you aware.

But yes after ordering that much I would just keep them out of sight out of mind for a month or two. If all you want to make is NC check local laws it could be totally legal in your area.

Armistice19 - 9-6-2013 at 16:18

Phew!

golfpro - 9-6-2013 at 16:54

I wouldn't empty your thoughts and worries either to the internet on a public forum. If one webstie is monitored more than anything, it is this one, and it is the energetics section. So realize that by everything you post on here, imagine it equal to you posting a flier on the entrance doors of an FBI headquarters building.

chemcam - 9-6-2013 at 18:11

If they do monitor this board I bet it is to learn, not to look for suspects. I also bet 99% of the active members on this board are harmless intellects that just want to teach, learn and socialize with others.

Edit:
The mods here do a great job at keeping the k3wls banished to totse and the like.. with the exception of "eliteforum" why they allow his signature link is beyond me..

[Edited on 6-10-2013 by chemcam]

Armistice19 - 9-6-2013 at 18:36

Well either way I'll keep everyone posted. I might even consider going through all the hassle of obtaining an FEL if I have to. Worse comes to worse I'll see if I can use a library computer in prison during lunch hour or something.

[Edited on 10-6-2013 by Armistice19]

chemcam - 9-6-2013 at 18:38

Haha now that is a good attitude to have.

gnitseretni - 9-6-2013 at 19:37

I don't think you have anything to worry about. I once ordered 6 gallons HNO3 and 4 gallons H2SO4 online from the same supplier and I'm still a free man

chemcam - 9-6-2013 at 19:45

Quote: Originally posted by gnitseretni

I don't think you have anything to worry about. I once ordered 6 gallons HNO3 and 4 gallons H2SO4 online from the same supplier and I'm still a free man

For now.

gnitseretni - 9-6-2013 at 20:41

Don't let chemcam scare you, armistice19.

Ral123 - 9-6-2013 at 21:18

That's why I like safe, stable for storage materials. For example you make 10 blast caps. They can be moved and stored in so may ways. You can sleep well, knowing that very little can go wrong, even if kids find them. You can't do that with unstable permanganate flash with sloppy made MHN. You have to store such dangerous sh*t in your refrigerator under very strict control. If you have to kick it out in a hurry, you'll never know what incident it might have caused. If you suspect trouble, would you give it to a friend to store it for you?

Bert - 12-6-2013 at 12:12

Armistice19, check your U2U.

Armistice19 - 12-6-2013 at 16:27

Even if it was the most stable explosive on earth I still wouldn't give it to a friend to store it for me. I don't have any friends that can match even the small amount of knowledge/experience that I have right now. I would never put anyone in that sort of physical/legal danger. If anything were to happen, I would much rather it happen to me.

UPDATE:
Sulfuric Acid, Urea, and glass stirring rods arrived today. Also it turns out the Urea and the H2SO4 were from the same seller on ebay, it is a biodiesel supplier. Hopefully this doesn't look bad enough on paper to cause a fuss.

chemcam - 12-6-2013 at 16:27

Nah, I am almost sure you will be fine. I honestly was not trying to make you freaked out, but just educate you on how to buy chemicals from now on. You do seem knowledgeable to me so far, it's only the morons that get in trouble with chemicals. You'll be fine. Congrats on your new chemicals by the way!

I know what you mean about not having any intelligent friends.. I pretend to be less educated when I'm with some of my friends since they are intimidated by too smart of a person.

Armistice19 - 12-6-2013 at 16:47

LOL, I'm not THAT smart dude. Most of my co-workers are much smarter than me (and they act like it too :mad:

). It's just that I've read a lot about explosives in the past, and my friends haven't. All I am doing is using my best judgement on which methods of manufacture are accurate, and which are not. I always loved chemistry, and I did decently well in my chem classes, though my memory is TERRIBLE. However, as our father sciencemadness has taught us all, the application of Murphy's Law is pretty much the closest thing to a panacea that we have here on earth, so I think I will be applying it quite a bit. (or at least I will try) Lately I have been trying to push myself to learn more about the SCIENCE of explosive synthesis. I want to revive that old chemistry knowledge that has been sitting unused in the dusty catacombs of my mind for so very long.

I'm also not the most motivated person in the world either.

[Edited on 13-6-2013 by Armistice19]

[Edited on 13-6-2013 by Armistice19]

Hockeydemon - 13-6-2013 at 02:06

What would you guys recommend for a large explosion that is safe to transport & has a velocity of ~3km/s? I would prefer it to be relatively safe to synthesize since I have not synthesized any energetic materials. I do however have proper laboratory equipment.

My roommate has a beach house on the ocean ~2 hours from my house that I could detonate anything I please at. It would just be fun to make a big finally explosive for the 4th.

I wonder if anyone has ever gone geoduck hunting with explosives hahaha (not what I intend to do).

If you point me in the direction I'll do the learning.

Quote: Originally posted by chemcam

I know what you mean about not having any intelligent friends.. I pretend to be less educated when I'm with some of my friends since they are intimidated by too smart of a person.

I have probably 1 intelligent friend for every 9 friends of average intellect. Even then the few friends that I would consider intelligent have no involvement in science.

This forum is one of my only outlets for my borderline inappropriate love for science.

[Edited on 13-6-2013 by Hockeydemon]

Hockeydemon - 13-6-2013 at 03:54

Forgive my naivety on the matter, but why are people not making RDX & PETN while forgoing most of the other things? RDX on paper is a joke to synthesize, and PETN is not very far behind. They're also stable compounds with very high velocities, and they have a high R.E factor.

I'm actually very intrigued by the process it would take to make this.
K2Cr2O7 + H2SO4 + heat to form an oxidizing agent for EtOH to form ethanal
http://youtu.be/TRFkU6442oo Video of ethanal synth
I can buy some paraformaldehyde (or look up how to oxidize methanol).
Then react the ethanal with the methanal + calcium oxide and I get Pentaerythritol..
Then I just react that with nitric acid, and I get PETN?

Though I doubt those of you experienced in energetic materials are unfamiliar with it here is the synthesis I've been looking at

RDX looks almost boring to synthesize.

[Edited on 13-6-2013 by Hockeydemon]

golfpro - 13-6-2013 at 07:30

Just do ETN...

I have read that Flash powder is louder than ETN in small amonts like under 5grams. I don't beleive this would be true in amounts around 25 grams... Even though 5g ETN would have a much more powerful blast than confined 5g Flash powder. True?

Hockeydemon - 13-6-2013 at 14:22

Quote: Originally posted by golfpro

Just do ETN...

I have read that Flash powder is louder than ETN in small amonts like under 5grams. I don't beleive this would be true in amounts around 25 grams... Even though 5g ETN would have a much more powerful blast than confined 5g Flash powder. True?

Just bought 2.5lbs of Erythritol for $10 haha. I'm still very interested in PETN though - more so the synthesis than the boom.

Whether or not flash powder has a high density or velocity would depend on it's specific composition. ETN is ~8k m/s & 1.6g/cm^3

Motherload - 13-6-2013 at 20:36

Quote: Originally posted by Hockeydemon

Forgive my naivety on the matter, but why are people not making RDX & PETN while forgoing most of the other things? RDX on paper is a joke to synthesize, and PETN is not very far behind. They're also stable compounds with very high velocities, and they have a high R.E factor.

I'm actually very intrigued by the process it would take to make this.
K2Cr2O7 + H2SO4 + heat to form an oxidizing agent for EtOH to form ethanal
http://youtu.be/TRFkU6442oo Video of ethanal synth
I can buy some paraformaldehyde (or look up how to oxidize methanol).
Then react the ethanal with the methanal + calcium oxide and I get Pentaerythritol..
Then I just react that with nitric acid, and I get PETN?

Though I doubt those of you experienced in energetic materials are unfamiliar with it here is the synthesis I've been looking at

RDX looks almost boring to synthesize.

[Edited on 13-6-2013 by Hockeydemon]

I am guessing you have never attempted a synthesis of either RDX or PETN ?
Given your casual attitude towards HE's ...... You shouldn't attempt to either.
I am not trying to burn/flame you ..... Even a mission to mars seems trivial on paper.
You need to respect the science involved and realize the potential of disaster.

Stay with commercial fireworks for the 4th of July.

Armistice19 - 14-6-2013 at 17:21

UPDATE:
Yesterday all the glassware arrived, and today the HNO3, Scale, NaOH, and mortar & pestle arrived. Since tomorrow is my day off, I figure I'll go to home depot and get myself some splash goggles, a face shield, an apron, elbow length neoprene gloves, and of course COTTON! However I do plan on playing some indoor CQB airsoft games in the evening tomorrow, so I might not post the vid for a while yet. I will continue to keep you all updated.

Hockeydemon, I hope you don't mind if I ask, what are some of the energetics that you have already synthesized so far in all your travels?

Hockeydemon - 15-6-2013 at 13:26

Quote: Originally posted by Motherload

What are the potential dangers (serious question) in PETN & RDX synthesis? Up until I nitrate them there is no real danger (explosive danger), and aren't these two particular explosives relatively insensitive? I'm intrigued about it, but I'm not going to just jump into making explosives.

---
Armistice19: I don't really have much experience with energetic materials - I've avoided them. I usually do other chemistry. This thread just interested me, and I spent awhile reading about various explosives & their synthesis. I have more interest in the synthesis than the explosion though.

Armistice19 - 17-6-2013 at 15:52

I received the pH strips today. I still haven't gone to home depot yet, and I have a few things to get done in my messy life before I can get started. I am shooting for weekend after next to make the video. I don't think I'll be quite ready for the 4th, but there will still be the usual flash powder.

chemcam - 17-6-2013 at 20:30

Quote: Originally posted by Hockeydemon

When you say "up until I nitrate them" I have to assume you mean the precursors, pentaerythritol and hexamine? There is no explosive hazard from them before nitration unless you have a certain percentage of the dust in the air but that is 99% unlikely the flash point of pentaerythritol is 200.1 °C, hexamine is flammable but that is the only danger. As long as you pay close attention to the temperature, continuous stirring and don't leave unattended you should be okay. There is always a risk for a runaway but if you're aware it shouldn't happen.

RDX has fairly low sensitivity but honestly I only know that from talking with others I have no experience with it. If you are using reagent grade acids it will be much safer than industrial grade. Impurities always have an effect on the sensitivity.

PETN is actually easy to detonate, I would say it is marginally less sensitive than ETN but I do not have proof of this. I mean both of them are much less sensitive than primaries but you should treat them all the same, very carefully. You do sound a little too relaxed when talking about these things but at least you are only in the knowledge acquiring phase. Have you read through this thread? Life after Detonation

Like I have said many times before the first nitration should be cellulose to get the feel for it.

Hockeydemon - 17-6-2013 at 23:58

Quote: Originally posted by chemcam

Would it hinder the nitration at all by using dry ice & IPA as the cooling bath? Or is that just entirely overkill to begin with, and a simple ice bath will suffice? I have an addition funnel, and a sep funnel ect. I don't understand why runaways are so prevalent. Is it just a lack of patients on the part of the chemist? Outside of the runaway, and complete disregard for safe handling of the explosive it does not appear to be as dangerous as people make it out to be. I don't mean to sound like I'm down playing the potential for harm that these materials possess. I am quite fearful of them, but I do feel that they are being talked up quite a bit in regards to danger (not that there aren't plenty of people out there that require that kind of 'talking up').

Yes I've read the "life after detonation", and it is pretty unfortunate. It along with many of the other videos of people blowing themselves up is part of the reason I have completely stayed away from energetics.

I nitrated cellulose earlier today after I synthesized some nitric acid. Though I didn't bother to make a video of me nitrating cellulose, I did make a video of me destroying my nitril gloves with nitric acid for snapchat haha. http://youtu.be/FXhE57b5ofw

Ral123 - 18-6-2013 at 02:25

Excellent acid. With that you can do almost anything in the book. You ask how the runaway happens. Well, you add the hexamine and not much temperature rise is observed. After a while reacting you stop adding to let it stay at safe temperature and you consider replacing the ice bath. However it still bubbles and the temperature stays uncomfortably high. You realize you don't have another ice bath prepared. You drop the vessel in a bunch of ice, but it doesn't sink all the way in the ice lumps. At some point the temperature rises above 30 and it gets more violent by the second. With very little time to react, you just rush the reaction to a safe place for it to boil off and enjoy a very clean and sterilized floor. Also awful coating on everything near. The NOx can be seen seeping out the lower part of your apartment door.

Armistice19 - 18-6-2013 at 17:59

Hmmm...so it seems one should use vinyl gloves for nitrations.

golfpro - 18-6-2013 at 18:12

It seems One should not think too much for nitration.

Just use gloves, if you do that you're doing good, take them off if you spill acid on them, nitrile is fine.

Hockeydemon - 18-6-2013 at 23:06

I agree with golfpro - if you notice I'm wearing nitril gloves while shooting the video. Though it is possible that I might spill that quantity of nitric acid on myself it is unlikely. Most of the 'spills' I'm exposed to are drop sized when it comes to them actually touching me. If you get a drop of nitric acid on nitril gloves it will heat up very noticeably, but I don't know that it would combust like it did in the video - at least not nearly as quickly. Though if you're so inclined you can buy some more expensive non-disposable lab gloves.

Though I should note I have multiple safety guards in place. For example while I was making the nitric acid (and wearing nitril gloves) I need a water sources for my condenser which is a bucket of water right next to the distillation apparatus. It would take no time for me to dump my hand in that water. I also have chemical fire extinguishers in multiple places, and base solution for neutralizing acids nearby at all times. I also wear a lab coat, goggles, and a respirator.

Armistice19 - 19-6-2013 at 17:28

You're probably right, either way I just bought a small pack of disposable vinyl gloves at home depot for the occasion.

Hockeydemon - 20-6-2013 at 01:31

Not that it has any real relevance to anything, but I redid that video with a GoPro so it is a little better quality.

http://youtu.be/mTPgCzwqpJE

Armistice19 - 25-6-2013 at 15:49

Alas, I am reminded of how much I wish I had a GoPro.

Here's the deal, I don't think I will be ready with enough NC for July 4th, and the only reason I didn't "go big or go home" with flash powder is because of its relative instability. So now I ask a new question, how big can I go with flash powder before I am putting myself in danger? I understand static shock and friction are some things to keep in mind as far as safety goes, but how much really changes the bigger you go? I mean it's the same stuff, it's just more of it right?

chemcam - 25-6-2013 at 18:49

When I do a big flash charge I make several small batches (10g each) then dump them in together once I have made enough. Flash powder is safer than most easy-to-make HE's, and yes, same stuff only more damage if an accident occurs. With HE's that is not always the case, more together means more sensitive and dangerous i.e. silver fulminate and other primaries. Even with some secondaries bigger quantity makes higher percent chance of having residual acid or impurities.

golfpro - 25-6-2013 at 19:29

That is so dumb how it's that easy to make a very High Explosive from basic materials (ETN, EGDN, HMTD etc.), but there is almost no way in hell to make flashpowder no matter how hard you try, KCLO4 -- yeah right, and aluminum powder. Is the govt. more worried about FP? if so why is that?

killswitch - 25-6-2013 at 20:02

Quote: Originally posted by Armistice19

Yes tannerite is cool, never shot it yet but I've heard alot about it. However I'm really more trying to test myself with actually making something at this point. I love to create, and watch my creations go boom. I would like to feel proud this year, and go big or go home. In other words, store bought explosives are out of the question in my mind. Synthesis in and of itself is a joyful experience. Ease of manufacture is important only because I have a month to obtain materials and begin production. Really, I am much more concerned about how safe the material is to make, and how stable/insensitive it is after it is complete. I know I am just a beginner, but I would rather try to make something and fail multiple times, than succeed and blow my hands off.

(Also please no tertiary suggestions at this point, I know I already said ANFO but tertiaries seem a bit too complex at this point)

[Edited on 2-6-2013 by Armistice19]

[Edited on 2-6-2013 by Armistice19]

If it is as warm as you say it is, peroxides are not a smart idea. They're unlikely to go boom, but since you're not in a clean room I'd say no.

Interestingly enough, nitroform (trinitromethane) can be made solely with dichloromethane, nitric acid, and isopropyl alcohol.

Don't quote me on this, and do your own research, but HNO3 is soluble in dichloromethane, while H2SO4 is not. NaNO3+H2SO4+dichloromethane should make a clean two-layer separation of nitric acid+DCM and sulfuric acid. Decanting+ pipetting can separate them, though vacuum distillation is still your best bet. Then on to the nitroform synthesis.

If it's fun you want, get some nitromethane from an online dragster fuel outlet, non-PVC plastic pipe, an empty plastic water cooler tank, and some black powder and fuse. Add nitromethane to the container (no more than 20% full, and probably less), then insert a plastic pipe with one end sealed tight, stuffed with black powder.

You see where I'm going with this.

Make sure the nitromethane is airtight, so that none of it actually comes in contact with the powder or leaks from the nexk. Light the fuse and hurl it from a slingshot, or run away. The confined black powder makes an impressive bang, and an instant later the fire touches the nitromethane fumes and makes a nice fuel-air-explosion. It ought to look just like a Hollywood-style fireball.

[Edited on 26-6-2013 by killswitch]

killswitch - 26-6-2013 at 06:25

Quote: Originally posted by golfpro

Holy COW!!!!

I bet you get a firm knock on your door/kicked down instead of these things ever being delivered. Good luck.

LOL I have ordered a liter of acetic anhydride from eBay and had near-next-day delivery. Been over a week. No Federalés yet.

killswitch - 26-6-2013 at 06:34

Quote: Originally posted by chemcam

Quote: Originally posted by Hockeydemon

When you say "up until I nitrate them" I have to assume you mean the precursors, pentaerythritol and hexamine? There is no explosive hazard from them before nitration unless you have a certain percentage of the dust in the air but that is 99% unlikely the flash point of pentaerythritol is 200.1 °C, hexamine is flammable but that is the only danger. As long as you pay close attention to the temperature, continuous stirring and don't leave unattended you should be okay. There is always a risk for a runaway but if you're aware it shouldn't happen.

RDX has fairly low sensitivity but honestly I only know that from talking with others I have no experience with it. If you are using reagent grade acids it will be much safer than industrial grade. Impurities always have an effect on the sensitivity.

PETN is actually easy to detonate, I would say it is marginally less sensitive than ETN but I do not have proof of this. I mean both of them are much less sensitive than primaries but you should treat them all the same, very carefully. You do sound a little too relaxed when talking about these things but at least you are only in the knowledge acquiring phase. Have you read through this thread? Life after Detonation

Like I have said many times before the first nitration should be cellulose to get the feel for it.

Not true. I spent several hours drying and grinding up hexamine and spent the next three weeks trying to convince my girlfriend I wasn't cheating on her. Smell my finger indeed.

killswitch - 26-6-2013 at 06:38

If you wish to look less suspicious in the future, ordering HCl and H3PO4 along with nitric and sulfuric gives the impression you are just buying mineral acids.

chemcam - 26-6-2013 at 07:45

Quote: Originally posted by killswitch

Not true. I spent several hours drying and grinding up hexamine and spent the next three weeks trying to convince my girlfriend I wasn't cheating on her. Smell my finger indeed.

Ahahaha! That was a nice comment to wake up to. You're right though hexamine smells like fish or dirty *****.

Be aware of the ones that smell like fish...It's not normal. Lol

Armistice19 - 27-6-2013 at 14:55

Quote: Originally posted by chemcam

When I do a big flash charge I make several small batches (10g each) then dump them in together once I have made enough.

10g each?!?! I have made 300g batches before, and shaken them violently in a Ziplock container sprayed with "static guard". Perhaps this was inherently stupid? I have already decided to attach myself to an electrical ground at the wrist if I were to use flash powder again this year. Honestly I have enough KClO4 left to make a Key and a half of flash, and I was seriously considering putting it all in one tube with a long fuse.

Armistice19 - 27-6-2013 at 14:58

Quote: Originally posted by killswitch

If you wish to look less suspicious in the future, ordering HCl and H3PO4 along with nitric and sulfuric gives the impression you are just buying mineral acids.

What would I use the H3PO4 for? I don't want to spend money on extra stuff that I won't use.

hyfalcon - 28-6-2013 at 04:30

Quote: Originally posted by Armistice19

You are lucky to still have your arm or life. If that much flash had gone off that close to your body you more than likely wouldn't be here today. When 50g is confined, it is scary enough, much more than that you start breaking windows.

[Edited on 28-6-2013 by hyfalcon]

chemcam - 28-6-2013 at 08:04

Wow, 300g?! To me that sounds as risky as using a 10mm long fuse. I am usually on the safer side of things though, I think 2g of flash confined could easily remove a finger or two, 300g would blow you to pieces.

Ral123 - 28-6-2013 at 08:48

It's not like there's much difference if you blow yourself with 30g or 300g energetic. You're screwed anyway. I try to use sub 10g and keep distance from the charge. If I'll blow up more, I try to use stable compounds. I don't understand flash well and I don't trust it much.

Armistice19 - 28-6-2013 at 09:01

I had no idea that flash powder was THAT sensitive. I will certainly never do this again. I was under the impression that you could hit this stuff with a hammer and you still probably wouldnt set it off. I am also confused about the sensitivity after confinement. Theoretically if i made a key and a half of flash powder 10g at a time and poured it loosley in a sealed container, it would be safer than it would as a free powder? I mean otherwise why do they make M1000s in eastern countries and sell them? It just doesn't make sense.

chemcam - 28-6-2013 at 15:40

Quote: Originally posted by Armistice19

I had no idea that flash powder was THAT sensitive. I will certainly never do this again.

You have gotten the wrong idea from all this, flash powder is not all that sensitive when it is fresh, here I am talking about KClO4 and Al. If using KClO3 and Al it is ever so slightly more sensitive to friction and impact. However, if KClO3 gets into contact with sulfur for instance in BP you will be in much danger. The finer the aluminum powder the more sensitive it will be. I have 1-3 micron Al and then also sub-micron Al, the latter is always easier to set off during testing.

When flash is confined it will explode, when as a loose powder it deflagrates up to a certain amount, 300g of powder would probably explode that's why you do 10g amounts at a time because the chances of it exploding loose is very slim. I don't even use a bag to mix it, I put it on paper and fold it then break the clumps up slowly.
---
I know you didn't ask this or even mention this but I wanted to say as a safety thing since the forth is less than a week away. I once saw somebody hot-gluing an end cap on a full 2g flash charge and it exploded, luckily it was in a bench vice and not his hand. If using hot glue I suggest to unplug the gun and let it cool a bit before it comes into contact with the charge. I didn't think flash could go off without flame or spark but it happened by just a hot surface, I believe, perhaps it was actually static.

Armistice19 - 4-7-2013 at 18:50

Understood, if something WERE to go wrong I'd be dead/armless instead of severely burned.

Even though I did not get to make Nitrocellulose this year, my America Day went well anyway using flash instead. Unfortunately my scale was a rip off, and was completely malfunctional. I should have known better trying to buy a precision balance for $95 (it is now being returned). Anyway, I noticed from previous years that my usual 7/3 by weight was visibly close to 5/5 by volume, so I thought I would try a little experimentation. Using a 10mL graduated cylinder (sprayed with static-guard) I measured 2mL of each component and then diapered. The flash was poured into 3/4" cardboard tubing, and plugged on both ends with slices from a 3/4" dowel rod, before being wrapped in electrical tape for insulation (anti-static). Surprisingly, for whatever reason I got a much louder report than I am used to. After making my first test charge I did a quick hammer test, which did very well, having to slam the hammer down very hard in order to get a detonation. The fuse burn rate was then tested with X2 10" lengths of fuse, and averaged at about 2.8 seconds per inch. 11 charges were made with 12.6 second fuses, and many books, electronics, and aerosol cans were destroyed. Each charge was successful and repeated the same results as the previous.

[Edited on 5-7-2013 by Armistice19]

Armistice19 - 2-9-2013 at 16:02

Just made my first mini batch of NC. You ever decide to do something, and then halfway through you realize you were completely unprepared? I need pipettes, funnels, a nice sunny day, and some practice with neatness. I spilled constantly, I thought the fan in the window of my basement would be enough, but it wasn't, I didn't make nearly enough 1M bicarbonate to neutralize everything, and I didn't even nitrate long enough. This was a scary learning experience. I need to do this outdoors with a few more pieces of equipment. I even contaminated my sulfuric acid with a little bit of nitric because I used the same graduated cylinder and then poured the excess back into the container. I'm a total noob with nitrations

golfpro - 2-9-2013 at 17:26

You have to think through the play-by-play of the whole procedure in your mind before you do something like that or it'll turn into a big mess.

Armistice19 - 7-9-2013 at 05:20

Looks like the final product was still okay on the first batch, even though it was a mess. Second attempt was the best so far. I did it outdoors and made a very small amount. I had plenty of bicarbonate, and the final product was superb. My third batch I decided to go with and ice bath and a bigger batch (5 cotton swabs in 125mL bath with about 5mL excess sulfuric). Turns out I created nice thick lumps of plastic with some fuzz on the outside. I obviously did something wrong. The final product on the third attempt would burn medium fast, but would leave behind sticky slow burning residue.

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