Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Cheddite energy content

Ral123 - 19-2-2013 at 12:50

I watched a video on youtube witch says KClO3/kerosine is with TNT equivalence 2. Chedite is neither brisant or very thermodynamically efficent like nitroguanidine. But is this true as energy content? Is the chlorate detonatable by itself or is it relying on very good mixing with the fuel?
I'm having a feeling that if I put a 50g ETN thin glass cased booster for 200g chlorate/kerosine in a steel tube, the average velocity will be 6000+.

Adas - 19-2-2013 at 13:05

Even HMX does only have 170% of the power of TNT.

Ral123 - 19-2-2013 at 21:51

You talk about R.E. I'm sorry to shake your rock solid believes but there are far more energetic mixtures like Mg/teflon, Be(ClO4)2/Al.

AndersHoveland - 20-2-2013 at 06:11

Be(ClO4)2 ? I am not sure that the anhydrous form of this compound even exists. (although the compound Be4O(ClO4)6 does)
There is probably a reason for this, Be+2, which has not been hydrated, is a strong lewis acid. The compound would not be ionic. I have also come across similar literature which casts doubt on the existence of anhydrous aluminum perchlorate (although Na[Al(ClO4)4] does exist).
Even magnesium perchlorate is an extremely powerful drying agent and often tends to form dangerously sensitive explosive mixtures with organic substances. The reactivity of some of these metal perchlorate compounds is very different from the more familiar common ionic perchlorate salts.

Ral123 - 20-2-2013 at 07:53

Why on this forum there's always a lot of info and opinion on exotic compounds, but never for simple like KClO3 or dinitrotuluene. I've heard of an explosive mixture Ca(ClO)2/fuel. Can hypohlorites from detonatable mixtures?

virgilius1979 - 20-2-2013 at 08:01

Hypochlorites-fuel mixes are even more dangerous than chlorites mixes.
Perchlorates are safest. (I wasn't talking about organic perchlorates :D)

Adas - 20-2-2013 at 08:26

Quote: Originally posted by Ral123  
Why on this forum there's always a lot of info and opinion on exotic compounds, but never for simple like KClO3 or dinitrotuluene. I've heard of an explosive mixture Ca(ClO)2/fuel. Can hypohlorites from detonatable mixtures?


I have experiences with Ca(ClO)2/fuel mixtures. We used 100% plant oil. It is pretty stable, IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32kT1_23ICU

Ral123 - 20-2-2013 at 09:56

Nice, do you have any idea how they separate chloride from hypochlorite? The mixture is less powerful then anfo right?

Adas - 20-2-2013 at 10:41

Quote: Originally posted by Ral123  
Nice, do you have any idea how they separate chloride from hypochlorite? The mixture is less powerful then anfo right?


Maybe by fractional crystallization. Ideal would be Ca(ClO4)2 :D
And I have no idea what the power is.

simply RED - 21-2-2013 at 01:08

Ral123, read some thermochemistry and calculate the energy of KClO3 + kerosene by yourself. It is so simple. And do not ask others to do for you such simple tasks.

Ral123 - 21-2-2013 at 01:48

I've never came across energy of forming or decomposing whatever with Cl-O bonds. With analogy with rocket propellants I came to the conclusion that AP has about 3.4kj/g or that the crappiest mixture with Al is still more energetic then RDX volume basis. Can you suggest source where energies of forming of decomposing chlorates are given?

simply RED - 21-2-2013 at 02:18

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_enthalpy_change_of_for...

497 - 22-2-2013 at 15:10

The theoretical energy density of mixtures of fuel+oxidizer particles is simply not comparable to compounds with oxygen and fuel in the same molecule/salt. Similarly, metal powders won't usually participate in the initial detonation wave so their energy content is not so relevant (unless you're considering the longer secondary shock in a thermobaric). Liquid or gas fuel+oxidizer mixtures are a better bet in some ways. The way you measure/utilize the effects also makes a big difference.

Ral123 - 24-2-2013 at 12:09

KCl=436 kj/mol KClO3=391 kj/mol
KClO3->KCl+1.5O2=45kj/mol
CO2=393 kj/mol

KClO3+1.5C->KCl+1.5CO2=1.5*393
1.5*393+45=635kj/mol

KClO3=122.5g/mol
C=12.7*1.5=20g/mol

TOTAL 142.5g=635kj or 4456j/g witch is a little better then picric acid PER UNIT WEIGHT
comparison:
Cheddite seems to be ~9830j/ml at density 2.2
Picric acid ~7140j/ml
EGDN>11kj/ml
Hexogen~10kj/ml

Ral123 - 24-2-2013 at 12:23

For these calculations I made some assumptions and hope that you'd correct me.

Quote: Originally posted by 497  
The theoretical energy density of mixtures of fuel+oxidizer particles is simply not comparable to compounds with oxygen and fuel in the same molecule/salt. Similarly, metal powders won't usually participate in the initial detonation wave so their energy content is not so relevant (unless you're considering the longer secondary shock in a thermobaric). Liquid or gas fuel+oxidizer mixtures are a better bet in some ways. The way you measure/utilize the effects also makes a big difference.

What if I want to use it as a propellant? What if it's under water. If I put 50g booster-cylinder of cast case less ETN in 100g cheddite the charge won't lack brisanse I think ;) What if high brisanse is unwanted and we wish to retain no more then 5000m/s? That why we need the energy, what are we going to use it for is other business.
And here's a test of two non detonatable by themselves components: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JJcFOODDnk
I assure you, mixing these two is much less exotermic then nitration of glycerin :D Маке your conclusions.

Hennig Brand - 5-3-2013 at 16:19

Commercial cheesecake has an energy density of approximately 13 000 KJ/Kg. The high explosive TNT releases about 4200 KJ of energy per Kg of explosive when detonated. Cheesecake has about 3 times the energy density of TNT!
The problem with cheesecake is that it is hard to get the energy out quickly. The ability to release the energy very quickly is what gives explosives their power and what makes them able to generating huge amounts of destructive force. Energy density is important, but it is often second or third down on the list depending on the application.

AndersHoveland - 5-3-2013 at 23:21

It is actually fairly easy if you want to calculate the energy content. Find the enthalpy of formation values for the reactants and products. It takes some work to do the calculations. Sorry, I am not going to waste my time walking you through the steps, but I am sure you can find some information on the internet if you really want to spend the effort.

Just remember that in compositions involving a simple mixture of a fuel and oxidizer in two separate phases, energy content is not an indicator of detonation velocity. Thermite compositions, for example, have a very high energy content, but that does not necessarily even make them explosive.

Aluminum powder typically increases energy content by a large margin. In fact, there has been research on the addition of nano-aluminum powder to add energy to HMX, while minimizing the sacrafice to brissance.

[Edited on 6-3-2013 by AndersHoveland]