Sciencemadness Discussion Board - What is an safer alternative to AP

What is an safer alternative to AP

Forumdude - 7-2-2013 at 13:44

Im worried by all of the dispute on the forums regarding AP sensitivity, im just getting into energetic materials but i have some chemistry experience.

Ral123 - 7-2-2013 at 16:10

Mercury fulminate is also quite sensitive, but doesn't go off by itself. You can also make picrates and NPED. It depends on the available secondary, what primary you need. So people can initiate with just flash in some cases.

caterpillar - 7-2-2013 at 16:35

Try Ag2C2*AgNO3 for example. If you want to make a detonator, I think that 2 gr of pressed picric acid plus 0.5 gr of lead picrate is a good variant. As for me, I used TATP (AP may mean Ammonium Perchlorate and Acetone Peroxide). I was at nearly killed by mercury fulminate.

CaliusOptimus - 7-2-2013 at 17:40

Take your pick, there's a large variety of primaries that have more ideal properties than AP. Plan on spending some time and money to make any of them.

If you want to tear into an airbag you can make azides.
If you have acetylene you can make acetylides.
If you have resorcinol and mixed acid you can make styphnates.
If you have mercury and HNO3 you can make mercury fulminate.

The list goes on..... forever.

Lead Azide + Lead Styphnate is a reliable combo. Lead Azide + Silver Acetylide is reliable as well, but more static and photo sensitive.

caterpillar - 7-2-2013 at 23:44

Question is, which of them can be easy prepared. I was talking about such ones. There are more- DDNP, for example. Or S4N4- all what you need are toluene, sulfur, dry ammonia and dry chlorine. Preparation of azides is not simple op.

KonkreteRocketry - 8-2-2013 at 00:53

Sodium perchlorate, much denser which is an advantage, and not hard to find, almost same oxygen content

Ral123 - 8-2-2013 at 00:56

Making lead azide from sodium azide is very easy. What confinement is needed to initiate the 2g picric acid with 0.5g lead picrate?
This test shows that even trough the wood was quite damaged from the AP, the picric didn't go off:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1asBOk8_sd8
This test shows that lead picrate has quite a difficulty to DDT.
Even lead styphnate witch burns much more quickly isn't good primary at all, I don't see how 0,5g picrate will reliably initiate the pcric acid. However I see lead picrate with picric acid impurities as a reliable basecharge for improvised blast caps. It has the energy density and sensitivity.

Adas - 8-2-2013 at 06:07

Quote: Originally posted by Ral123

Mercury fulminate is also quite sensitive, but doesn't go off by itself. You can also make picrates and NPED. It depends on the available secondary, what primary you need. So people can initiate with just flash in some cases.

No explosive can go off by itself. Mercury is a very toxic heavy metal. Reconsider your suggestions, please. Someone may get severely poisoned. Silver acetylide would be a much better choice for a beginner.

Motherload - 8-2-2013 at 07:22

Quote:

Sorta correct. Dry Nitrogen Tri Iodide will detonate with just wind change and sunlight. Or if the pile is big enough .... By its own weight.
Agreed in ideal conditions they won't go off on their own and do require a stimuli. But the amount of stimuli is minuscule and makes it appear to detonate on its own.

Having said that .... Acetone Peroxide .... If properly prepared and washed will not go off like nitrogen tri iodide.
AP is a sensitive explosive and should be treated as such (broad spectrum high sensitivity) .... But there is no point in over exaggerating facts.

Ral123 - 8-2-2013 at 09:16

Can you predict when AP is "well prepared" and when is extremely sensitive? Many people thought they could... AP means acetone peroxide, the synth. doesn't give pure dimeric or trimeric form. TATP means you double recrystalised it and you are sure that it's pure trimeric form. For practical reasons we assume it can go off by itself and always treat devices containing it, like they can go off at any time.
I'm somewhat safe with my last batch of azide, because it resists stun gun and when I torch it with a lighter, it first begins to pop for a while before it blows. That means that even if very small spot decomposes rapidly by some reason, the whole thing wont go off.

Adas - 8-2-2013 at 09:41

There is some paper on the internet which says that when TATP is prepared using certain acids (HCl, HNO3, ...), it does not decompose to DADP or does so very very slowly. Other acids (H2SO4, CH3SO3H, ...) cause it to decompose slowly even at °C, with the decomposition being rapid at 60°C.
Of course there is always some DADP, but unless it decomposes, the amounts are very low.

caterpillar - 8-2-2013 at 15:50

I have got info on TATP from this: http://pirochem.net/index.php?id1=3&category=chemvvisost... and my own experience. I haven't had incidents with this compound. Do not use large amounts, add few percent of graphite (if you afraid of statical discharge). Do not use H2SO4 as catalyst- only HCl.

CaliusOptimus - 8-2-2013 at 18:29

Ag2C2*AgNO3 would be my recommendation for a first time primary. Keep in mind it's very static and heat sensitive, and should be stored in darkness.

Quote: Originally posted by caterpillar

Preparation of azides is not simple op.

Lead azide is IMO ideal for a hobbyist, just as it is ideal for so many commercial and military applications. In the case of a mid 90's mustang passenger airbag, a lifetime supply (~400g) of sodium azide can be obtained! If you don't have any machinery at your disposal, plan on spending an hour with a hacksaw. Otherwise, azides are very straight forward chemistry.

caterpillar - 8-2-2013 at 22:30

Quote: Originally posted by CaliusOptimus

Ag2C2*AgNO3 would be my recommendation for a first time primary. Keep in mind it's very static and heat sensitive, and should be stored in darkness.
Lead azide is IMO ideal for a hobbyist, just as it is ideal for so many commercial and military applications. In the case of a mid 90's mustang passenger airbag, a lifetime supply (~400g) of sodium azide can be obtained! If you don't have any machinery at your disposal, plan on spending an hour with a hacksaw. Otherwise, azides are very straight forward chemistry.

After such words about silver acetilide, I do not see, why this compound is better than TATP. If you can get NaN3, lead azide is the best choice. Out of questions. But if not- It's a Long Way to Tipperary... Urea +hipochlorite + nitrite. Not for beginners.

[Edited on 9-2-2013 by caterpillar]

Ral123 - 9-2-2013 at 00:11

KN3 has a long synth. for big enthusiasts only, but it can be done with just some glassware and basic reagents. I think the main advantage of Ag2C2*AgNO3 is that it doesn't explode by itself. And due to it's cost, they cant misuse it

Also it's no too efficient primary, so when one learns to initiate stuff with small amounts of it, he'll make very reliable things when he switches to azide.

Silver Acetylide

Forumdude - 10-2-2013 at 15:28

thanks everyone! I think im going to make silver acetylide for my first primary , what do you guys think , anything i need to keep in mind? I know it is still very sensitive but will it go off while im pouring it into a blasting cap? What is the best way to make a blast cap for this stuff?

Ral123 - 11-2-2013 at 00:19

Pouring is the least of your worries. Pressing is the dangerous part. Metal(must not be in contact with the primary) and glass are best, followed by plastic and last paper. With the double salt(Ag2C2*AgNO3) you need good base charge. Recrystalised ETN, RDX, or something like that.
Correct me if I'm not right about something.

CaliusOptimus - 12-2-2013 at 00:40

With silver acetylide, static is your primary concern. Do not work in a dry climate. I recommend a wikipedia session on the subject of static, and it's many causes. Search through my previous posts, you'll find more good info on the subject. I think it was in a thread specifically on SA...

STAY SAFE!

Quote: Originally posted by Ral123

Metal(must not be in contact with the primary) and glass are best, followed by plastic and last paper.

Would you mind shooting me some more info on that via PM?

hiperion42 - 12-2-2013 at 11:15

The color of the Ag2C2*Agno3 complex will have quite a
bearing on it's sensitivity and initiating capabilities.
Off white/creamy white is the desired outcome.
Static is something to watch but if one can develop
a system where this primary is pressed in a separate
container which fits precisely into the base charge
container ; so that these 2 components can remain
separate until the moment when one chooses to combine them ;
the danger of accidental base charge ignition is substantially reduced.

franklyn - 12-2-2013 at 23:14

Absolute safety is most closely provided by direct initiation of the secondary explosive with
an exploding bridgewire (EBW). Conventionally Gold 30 gauge fired by a ~ 1000 volt 20 MF ,
up to a 2000 volt 5 MF capacitor that has 10 joules or so. A booster of a high detonating
velocity molecular compound or a dynamite is still needed to produce high order detonation
of a shock insensitive explosive slurry. A very limited selection of two-component explosive
compositions can substitute. If primary detonating explosives are used , allowance must be
made for their handling since all such compounds are by definition sensitive to heat , shock
and most critically to static electric initiation. This then constrains the means of construction
of the detonator capsule. Primary initiating explosives that consistently detonate high order
are also the very ones demanding of thoughtful handling because of their ease of initiation.
Noncommercial improvisations except by one skilled in the art of known well tested items
are by definition experiments and are not reliable either in safety or performance. Storing
such devices long term ( more than 2 weeks ) invites disappointment and the further hazard
of dismantling a failed shot and disposal of that cap. Skill in the art implies knowing how to
select and adapt materials to perform as needed in a contrived explosive train. This takes
a very long practical apprenticeship to acquire. Straying from accepted commercial and
military explosive practice and use places you in the situation that there can be no reliable
information or recommendation made regarding some unknown and untried device.

Acetone Peroxide has more the properties of a secondary explosive than a primary and is
equally badly suited to both purposes , why it sees no commercial use. It can be said to be
the PETN of the organic peroxides - a bad lot of compounds on the whole. HMTD can be
easily made but it also only needs 1/3 of the impact height as AP to be exploded. The
association of unintended explosion with peroxide compounds is the result of it's simple
synthesis facilitating many more instances of it's being made relative to other compounds.
Readily made more by individuals that are not rigorous in controlling the circumstances in which
it is made leading to conditions that can foster unintended results. So there are more of these
instances occurring and reported out of proportion to other primary compounds. The common
hazard is heedless disrespect for inherently sensitive explosive materials.

I do not endorse this except that it provides an overview of what is typically home brewed.
Use it as a guide only , always refer to the primary scientific literature for procedural details
Improvised Primary Explosives by Dirk Goldmann
Kitchen Improvised Blasting Caps by Tim Lewis
Ragnars Homemade Detonators by Ragnar Benson

Patents _
US 2400103 - Detonator or Blasting Cap
US 3096714 - Electric Detonators
US 4316412 - Low Voltage Nonprimary Explosive Detonator
US 4727808 - Non Primary Explosive Detonator
US 5385098 - Initiating Element for Nonprimary Explosive Detonators
WO1997022571 - Pyrotechnical Charge for Detonators

The search for a magic substance goes on , see page 11 for list of candidates
New Primary Explosives Development for Detonators
www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a199472.pdf

I have a fondness for Ethylenedinitramine salts
www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPGnKwf0GrI
www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmHARhxtrb0
www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU0RbdiLPdA

Patents
US 2011578 - Ethylenedinitramine
US 2400288 - Process for making Dinitroethylene Urea
US 2684384 - Preparation of Ethylenedinitramine
US 2708623 - Explosive Compound , Process of Making _ (Lead Ethylenedinitramine)

Chemistry of Powder & Explosives by T.L.Davis , pg 393 - 394

Lead Free Initiator Materials for Small Electro-Explosive Devices , search Ethylenedinitramine
www.serdp.org/content/download/6423/85591/file/PP-1306-FR-01.pdf
excerpted from this _

Forumdude - 14-2-2013 at 12:02

Quote: Originally posted by franklyn

Absolute safety is most closely provided by direct initiation of the secondary explosive with
an exploding bridgewire (EBW). Conventionally Gold 30 gauge fired by a ~ 1000 volt 20 MF ,
up to a 2000 volt 5 MF capacitor that has 10 joules or so. A booster of a high detonating
velocity molecular compound or a dynamite is still needed to produce high order detonation
of a shock insensitive explosive slurry. A very limited selection of two-component explosive
compositions can substitute. If primary detonating explosives are used , allowance must be
made for their handling since all such compounds are by definition sensitive to heat , shock
and most critically to static electric initiation. This then constrains the means of construction
of the detonator capsule. Primary initiating explosives that consistently detonate high order
are also the very ones demanding of thoughtful handling because of their ease of initiation.
Noncommercial improvisations except by one skilled in the art of known well tested items
are by definition experiments and are not reliable either in safety or performance. Storing
such devices long term ( more than 2 weeks ) invites disappointment and the further hazard
of dismantling a failed shot and disposal of that cap. Skill in the art implies knowing how to
select and adapt materials to perform as needed in a contrived explosive train. This takes
a very long practical apprenticeship to acquire. Straying from accepted commercial and
military explosive practice and use places you in the situation that there can be no reliable
information or recommendation made regarding some unknown and untried device.

Acetone Peroxide has more the properties of a secondary explosive than a primary and is
equally badly suited to both purposes , why it sees no commercial use. It can be said to be
the PETN of the organic peroxides - a bad lot of compounds on the whole. HMTD can be
easily made but it also only needs 1/3 of the impact height as AP to be exploded. The
association of unintended explosion with peroxide compounds is the result of it's simple
synthesis facilitating many more instances of it's being made relative to other compounds.
Readily made more by individuals that are not rigorous in controlling the circumstances in which
it is made leading to conditions that can foster unintended results. So there are more of these
instances occurring and reported out of proportion to other primary compounds. The common
hazard is heedless disrespect for inherently sensitive explosive materials.

I do not endorse this except that it provides an overview of what is typically home brewed.
Use it as a guide only , always refer to the primary scientific literature for procedural details
Improvised Primary Explosives by Dirk Goldmann
Kitchen Improvised Blasting Caps by Tim Lewis
Ragnars Homemade Detonators by Ragnar Benson

Patents _
US 2400103 - Detonator or Blasting Cap
US 3096714 - Electric Detonators
US 4316412 - Low Voltage Nonprimary Explosive Detonator
US 4727808 - Non Primary Explosive Detonator
US 5385098 - Initiating Element for Nonprimary Explosive Detonators
WO1997022571 - Pyrotechnical Charge for Detonators

The search for a magic substance goes on , see page 11 for list of candidates
New Primary Explosives Development for Detonators
www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a199472.pdf

I have a fondness for Ethylenedinitramine salts
www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPGnKwf0GrI
www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmHARhxtrb0
www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU0RbdiLPdA

Patents
US 2011578 - Ethylenedinitramine
US 2400288 - Process for making Dinitroethylene Urea
US 2684384 - Preparation of Ethylenedinitramine
US 2708623 - Explosive Compound , Process of Making _ (Lead Ethylenedinitramine)

Chemistry of Powder & Explosives by T.L.Davis , pg 393 - 394

Lead Free Initiator Materials for Small Electro-Explosive Devices , search Ethylenedinitramine
www.serdp.org/content/download/6423/85591/file/PP-1306-FR-01.pdf
excerpted from this _

What do you use for a primary mainly ?

Forumdude - 14-2-2013 at 12:04

If i was to put the silver acetylide into the cap while it was still wet would this reduce the chance for static igintion?

Ral123 - 14-2-2013 at 12:14

Every new explosive I test with AP. After that lead azide is very nice for micro tests. Azide-RDX can make Cap No8 from a straw and a super reliable oversized detonator from 5ml thin walled mini test tube.

SM2 - 14-2-2013 at 12:26

Quote: Originally posted by CaliusOptimus

Take your pick, there's a large variety of primaries that have more ideal properties than AP. Plan on spending some time and money to make any of them.

If you want to tear into an airbag you can make azides.
If you have acetylene you can make acetylides.
If you have resorcinol and mixed acid you can make styphnates.
If you have mercury and HNO3 you can make mercury fulminate.

The list goes on..... forever.

Lead Azide + Lead Azide is a reliable combo. Lead Azide + Silver Acetylide is reliable as well, but more static and photo sensitive.

Actually there's a pretty interesting synthesis of lead Azide in CIA, Field Prep. You work with Hydrazonium sulphate (avoiding the free hydrazing or the even more toxic hydrate) I think they used bleach/gelatine.

[Edited on 14-2-2013 by SM2]

[Edited on 14-2-2013 by SM2]

Xfactor - 13-10-2013 at 05:39

I made a video on the synthesis and some sensitivity tests.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl43G1tW0lE

The interesting thing is that it can be detonated with a laser which I find fairly cool (it is shown in the video)

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 13-10-2013 at 10:34

Quote: Originally posted by Xfactor

I made a video on the synthesis and some sensitivity tests.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl43G1tW0lE

The interesting thing is that it can be detonated with a laser which I find fairly cool (it is shown in the video)

Wow ! 5 gram of silver just to make an explosive !!! You're a rich man

Amazing video also.

I have little knowledge how a laser would initiate it ? Can you explain a bit ?

[Edited on 13-10-2013 by DubaiAmateurRocketry]

Xfactor - 13-10-2013 at 10:42

Quote: Originally posted by DubaiAmateurRocketry

Quote: Originally posted by Xfactor

Wow ! 5 gram of silver just to make an explosive !!! You're a rich man

It's not as bad as you think, I didn't use all of the silver nitrate, I just made a bigger batch because it is annoying having to make silver nitrate every time I want to make silver acetylide.

I only used 1 g of the silver nitrate, and I got about 5, I didn't list the yield because it wasn't accurate because some silver nitrate was lost when the cleaning lady spilled it (yes really -.-)

Also silver is not all that expensive, and you don't need a lot of primary when used correctly.

Gargamel - 13-10-2013 at 11:05

Quote:

2 gr of pressed picric acid plus 0.5 gr of lead picrate

I find this a crazy size for a cap. Very difficult to protect yourself from that blast while filling and handling it. 0.5g or maybe 0.8g of a good secondary are enough, if not rather use an intermediate booster on your main charge.

Quote:

I only used 1 g of the silver nitrate, and I got about 5, I didn't list the yield because it wasn't accurate because some silver nitrate was lost when the cleaning lady spilled it (yes really -.-)

If I was you I would clean your working area/lab yourself and make sure there's no dangerous stuff around than can be spilled so easily

I'd have no quit minute if I new of some person not used to it pokes his nose through my stuff

Xfactor - 13-10-2013 at 11:24

Quote: Originally posted by Gargamel

Quote:

2 gr of pressed picric acid plus 0.5 gr of lead picrate

Quote:

I only used 1 g of the silver nitrate, and I got about 5, I didn't list the yield because it wasn't accurate because some silver nitrate was lost when the cleaning lady spilled it (yes really -.-)

If I was you I would clean your working area/lab yourself and make sure there's no dangerous stuff around than can be spilled so easily

I'd have no quit minute if I new of some person not used to it pokes his nose through my stuff

It was drying on the radiator, the cleaning lady took it (ever after specifically being told not to touch glassware) and spilled over an wooden cupboard-like thing and my metal lighter. She then proceeded to go away, and come back in about an hour when she wiped off the silver nitrate spill. Now there is a big purple-black stain and a green stain where the lighter was.